Jigglypuff: Official Character Discussion

[Foxy]

I disagree. If it has reliable set ups then it is squarely in the fault of Jigglypuff for missing the rest. None of us play as the Puff so I can't comment much, but her Rest doesn't need to be KO at anything less then 40%.

I do play the Puff, and Rest definitely should kill at least starting at 20%.

 

[Ulevo]

For the current Jiggs, her gravity needs to be increased on her fall and fast fall. Currently I am running 2534E670 for Jiggs, and it helps her significantly. She is still floaty, but no longer a large target in the air that can't follow up her moves. Another thing that needs to be worked on is her aerial mobility. The reason Jiggs suffers in vBrawl (and Brawl Plus respectively) is because the ability she had to control space with her mobility is gone. Wario stole all of it. Without that ability, she can't properly attempt to by pass disjointed hit boxes.

Currently her Rest works very well. Utilt still needs a fix, as do Uair and her other throws. FSmash would be helpful too. Once those are all under place, Jiggs will be an extremely good character.

 

[shanus]

As i mentioned to you previously, I am totally against giving jiggs higher normal gravity. She will be significantly heavier and be comboable almost like a fast faller. If you want her faster in her fall then do the following:

2534EC40

I haven't tested it, but it should be a noticable difference.

 

[Ulevo]

As i mentioned to you previously, I am totally against giving jiggs higher normal gravity. She will be significantly heavier and be comboable almost like a fast faller. If you want her faster in her fall then do the following:

2534EC40

I haven't tested it, but it should be a noticable difference.

I'll test that Shanus, but like I mentioned to you in the convo, her actual gravity is the same. I only modified her fall and fast fall IDs.

 

[Foxy]

Alright, so I played 4.0 with Jiggs and Rest DEFINITELY needs to be fixed.

IIRC, this is what we forgot when we changed rest: Brawl calculates knockback before damage, and Melee calculates knockback after damage. With a move like Rest that does a huge amount of damage, that's a big different in kill percentages.

I landed a rest after a small combo from 0% so that it hit at about 30% in the center of Smashville and it should have certainly killed but it definitely didn't.

 

[leafgreen386]

Alright, so I played 4.0 with Jiggs and Rest DEFINITELY needs to be fixed.

IIRC, this is what we forgot when we changed rest: Brawl calculates knockback before damage, and Melee calculates knockback after damage. With a move like Rest that does a huge amount of damage, that's a big different in kill percentages.

I landed a rest after a small combo from 0% so that it hit at about 30% in the center of Smashville and it should have certainly killed but it definitely didn't.

...

Seriously? Like... seriously? They changed a mechanic that fricking basic? I guess when we get stale damage it will make for more consistent kills, though.

AFAIK, jiggs's rest was not maniacally calculated to be a specific way, though. They just tested values and picked what worked.

 

[shanus]

When we made it stronger, a lot of complaints were on how its actually easier to land than in melee (it is pretty retardedly easy to uair to rest or sometimes pound to rest) and that its enhanced strength shouldn't be too strong. you still only need to connect a few hits to get a kill esp on levels like WW or corneria as CPs

 

[goodoldganon]

When we made it stronger, a lot of complaints were on how its actually easier to land than in melee (it is pretty retardedly easy to uair to rest or sometimes pound to rest) and that its enhanced strength shouldn't be too strong. you still only need to connect a few hits to get a kill esp on levels like WW or corneria as CPs

This. It's easier to land Rest now a days and you sacrifice the power for that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It's easier to land a rest now? When did that happen?! All of Jiggs current rest combos were also rest combos in melee, only that uair had more range, the uptiilt had less startup lag (and more range), pound had more range, and nair->rest was legit.

Any sort of DI will ruin these combos of course...but the same is true of brawl+

 

[Foxy]

...

Seriously? Like... seriously? They changed a mechanic that fricking basic? I guess when we get stale damage it will make for more consistent kills, though.

AFAIK, jiggs's rest was not maniacally calculated to be a specific way, though. They just tested values and picked what worked.

If you've ever seen those arguments about Melee having stale knockback as well, you know it to be true.

Basically, Melee DOES have diminishing returns of damage, and that's why a poorly-designed knockback test will show that, starting at the same percentage, a stale move seems to have less knockback than the fresh one. However, that's not true, and it only happens because the knockback was calculated after damage, which happened to be less for the stale one. If you set up the percentages so that they were identical AFTER the hit, then the knockback would be the same in Melee.

Not so in Brawl, where they changed knockback to be calculated right before damage, and instead added in stale knockback on top of damage.

So, moves with a very large knockback gain and damage can be seriously different in Brawl, because a Warlock Punch or Rest at 0% is not the same as one at 20% or 30%.

However, I may be wrong, but this is what I remember. I'm no smash professor, though.

Edit: Rest isn't that easy to land in Brawl+ from what I've played, especially compared to Melee. It almost feels NEVER guaranteed, just somewhat reliable off many simple combos. The hitbox seems less reliable.

 

[The Cape]

What about a few slight hitbox changes for jiggs?

More range on bair by moving the hitbox, bigger U tilt hitbox, bigger uair hitbox

Something with ground game?

She is good for sure, but could use a bit more help.

 

[Veril]

O.o

OK, rest doesn't really need to get changed. Increasing its hitbox duration would be sexy, and it would make countering with rest more feasible. Not necessarily a good thing This is the greatest idea ever.

People complaining about rest's power are silly. I love non-KOing rests .

Something that did get nerfed with rest, but not removed completely, were interrupts. Basically hitstun was low enough that in vBrawl you could just rest at certain points during many multihit moves (diddy's dash attack being the most notable). Now that there's more hitstun, this works on fewer moves within a smaller % range, BUT now there are actual combos to break.

I'll have a list up of interruptible moves, I'm not sure of all of the ones that carried over, but I know most continuous jabs can still be rested out of (not Falco's though). This is probably one of the few things I'm truly an expert on, so I will explore it as much as possible.

EDIT: The nerfing was actually relatively minor. Interrupt resting is way more **** now simply because rest is good. Also, it still works on a number of moves, and a ton of almost-combos. So its an incredible combo breaker. Super high-risk, high-reward.

What actually sucks: her throws! Cannot KO, no combos except on FFers who can't DI, there aren't even any consistent non-combo followups. Just DI up on the B and F throws, and to the side on up and down throws. The only real exception is if you force a tech chase on a platform, which is pretty situational to say the least.

One of her throws should KO at high % (preferably the near useless up-throw). I wouldn't suggest adding real combo potential, she's got plenty of that already and rest makes it really dicey.

Clarification on rest combos:

-backwards n-air to rest is, in fact, legit.
-every aerial can combo into rest actually.
-uptilt is very hard to land on people who can space. Almost all rest John's I've gotten are from people I've up-tilt rested.

-Sing is useless. Ledge-canceled sing is better I guess, but just a really sub-par option only notable cause its hilarious. If I did get a ledge canceled sing, I probably wouldn't even rest, I'd down smash.

How bad is Jigglypuff's f-smash?

How high is Zimbabwe's inflation rate? I just want everyone to know that it has 35 frames of lag... so you can all make fun of it.

 

[CT Chia]

jiggz rest is way too overpowered. its way too easy to combo into in brawl. its kb is so great that if u dont die from it jiggz will wake up b4 u get back to punish. thats in the very rare occasion that you dont die at like 10% of something. its awful.

 

[JCaesar]

And yet not one person in the WBR put her in their top 10 list. I'd be fine with nerfing it a bit, but it fits with her character and style regardless. She's fine.

Did you type that on a phone? Ugh

 

[Revven]

Chibo, when you look at Melee, people died at even earlier percents than what's seen in Brawl+ from rest. Learn to tolerate it and learn the match-up. It really is not that OP, Jigglypuff is not that big of a deal because she has great weaknesses you need to pinpoint midmatch.

1) No range
2) Light
3) Slow on the ground
4) Low priority in some areas (I'm sure her Fair has great priority, but, obviously her Ftilt or Bair don't have as much, so that is what I mean by 'in some areas').

And because she's slow on the ground, she has a hard time with a lot of characters that we consider top 10. Fox for example, while she can combo him and vice versa it isn't good for her to be on the ground AT ALL against Fox because of Fox's incredible speed. Then there's Captain Falcon who if she even tries to compete with on the ground gets ***** pretty bad. It's not enough that though when she's light enough to die from a knee at around 60%...

Hell! She can even get ***** by DK because of his incredible range and priority over her. Sure, she can combo me better into a rest but, if I don't let her near me once by spacing my aerials and tilts properly and grabbing her when I can, I clearly have stuff over her that doesn't make her OP at all. And I'm a BIG character, yet I trample over her big weaknesses: I'm faster on the ground, have more range, kill her even earlier than most characters, and have more priority than she does overall.

I don't think rest is OP considering the fact that it was a lot more effective in Melee than it is here. It does not kill as early as it did then as it does now. PLUS, it has a MUCH smaller hitbox than the Melee and 64 hitboxes. It's like half the size of her, if even smaller. I think it deserves to kill people at 40% if it has such a small hitbox and is such a high risk/high reward move. And let's face it, making it kill 10% later would just make it harder for her to combo into it at those percents, effectively nerfing her for NO GOOD REASON.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't like Jigglypuff cause she sucks so bad except for a ******** powerful rest, but it kind of has always been her thing. Rest is stupid when you screw up and get hit by it, but it's not too powerful to justify a nerf.

 

[Almas]

Perhaps we should figure out the exact trait that allows Jigglypuff to ISJR, and make it significantly easier for her.

 

[shanus]

1:24:13 AM iambreadcat: 1. Aerial mobility and increased fast fall speed
2. Sped up Fsmash
3. Jab speed increase.
4. Throw that can kill at WAY high percents (the way peachs or jiggz did in melee)

 

[The Cape]

A possible idea to go with the ones that Shanus posted:

Sing ends frame 18, hits (that I know of) frames 13-16 for the third wave
250081D8 41200000
or
25000114 41200000

Not sure which will work

Combine that with this hitbox mod:
Jiggs Sing
25000400 09169114
00001409 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

This gives it 20 base and no growth from 4 growth and no base. Numbers will need tweaked but the goal is to allow jiggs a followup off of sing. Rest as a followup ONLY if they run into the end of the last hitbox, but a jab or tilt or grab from the first hitbox.

 

[Veril]

suggestions

Jiggs grab game is terrible. Jiggs ground game is terrible.

Increase the b-throw kbg such that it will KO (no DI center FD) at on average 130%. This is around the point Jiggs loses all good options save spacing aerials for a f-air based KO. Jiggs will still rely on lower % KOs, but this will allow more aggressive play later on.

Decrease the BKB of up-throw just enough so that it can combo into aerials but not directly into rest. I'll test to determine the exact amounts for this.

Do not change d or f throw.


Change rest from fire type to darkness type. First off, this is awesome and not just a rip off of melee. Second, it won't interact with the weaknesses/resistances of PT characters. Third... its awesome.