Jigglypuff Matchup #8: Ice Climbers

[illinialex24]

Please discuss Jigglypuff's potential, strategy and stage counterpicks here.

 

[RhedKing]

ho ho! first response!

IC can be a real pain for jiggs since they chaingrab like crazy. Any good IC will attempt to grab you at any chance. This is less of a problem for jiggs since she's in the air so much, but still no less dangerous. I'd expect this to be a complete air game for jiggs, battling IC on the ground when they have such a distinct advantage would be suicidal.

Lots of advance and retreat in this match up. also Dair is generally going to be a bad idea.

Rollout is also bad, since you can be grabbed out of it.

One positive I see in is rest. Betwwen the two IC you're odds in resting one are pretty good. and that separation damage is key in the match.

Also with one IC it becomes impossible slightly harder for them to Chain grab.

I'd go 40:60 IC's favor, since jiggs has them beat in air combat and if the jiggs is smart, she can pressure them a lot.

go Smashvile, ban Corneria, since the IC will abuse the slope top and Ice block you, and when they have such a distinct height advantage it would really hurt jiggs.

I'm liking Smashvile for this one, since the platform will help you to pressure them, and this stage is small to close in fast with aerials and SHs

Make sure to keep that fair fresh for spontaneous nana ****

 

[SaltyKracka]

Don't get grabbed.

 

[Airgemini]

Hm from what I've read she's one of the harder characters to CG because of her light weight. I would imagine Pound being good to separate them since it pops them in the air and you can continue with WoP or whatever. Off stage Jigglypuff owns, their aerials arent really the best when it comes to dealing with it. You can avoid getting grabed by spacing your aerials and using your superior aerial speed to float back and forth. Weaving spaced Bairs can be effective.

Watch out for their smash attacks, they're overall very strong when both ICs are alive. Focus on killing Nana first, this is key.


Is it possible to SDI the double hammer thing and Blizzard to Rest?
And is it possible to accidently Rest Nana instead of Popo?

I hope I summarized alright, Im new lol.

 

[RhedKing]

Hm from what I've read she's one of the harder characters to CG because of her light weight. I would imagine Pound being good to separate them since it pops them in the air and you can continue with WoP or whatever. Off stage Jigglypuff owns, their aerials arent really the best when it comes to dealing with it. You can avoid getting grabed by spacing your aerials and using your superior aerial speed to float back and forth. Weaving spaced Bairs can be effective.

Watch out for their smash attacks, they're overall very strong when both ICs are alive. Focus on killing Nana first, this is key.


Is it possible to SDI the double hammer thing and Blizzard to Rest?
And is it possible to accidently Rest Nana instead of Popo?

I hope I summarized alright, Im new lol.

Nana has her own hitbox, so she can definitely get hit with rest instead of popo. arguably though this isn't that bad since one IC isn't a big deal damage wise.

Also pound will help a lot with their ground based rolling tendencies.

 

[rinoH]

Don't get grabbed.

this and also bair alot watch this vid meow is too good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE7v3APD6QM&eurl=http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=12499

 

[MrEh]

IC's grabs ****.

However, you are Jiggs. And you will not be grabbed. If you're grabbed, then you're doing it wrong. ^^

 

[Barge]

Seperate nana, don't get grabbed.

5-5 IMO.

 

[kirbywizard]

something to avoid at all cost is to be grabbed, a good ice climber can end you with just one grab no matter what you do to try to escape, once your grabbed the end is near.
But your air game is better, and I find nana easier to kill with jigglypuff >.>
a good pound will separate this duo, and you wont have to worry about a chain grab once nana is gone. The B down is annoying at high damage

 

[rinoH]

im thinking 60-40 in favor of IC's though it all depends on how good the IC player since it all depends on if they can pull off the CG

 

[kirbywizard]

im thinking 60-40 in favor of IC's though it all depends on how good the IC player since it all depends on if they can pull off the CG

dear god I was vsing a good ice climbers like three days ago, it was horrible, all he needed to finish my last stock was one grab my damage went from 0 to 110 or so, then as popo grabbed me nana charged an up smash

 

[Veril]

Don't get grabbed.

Seperate nana, don't get grabbed.

Point

However, you are Jiggs. And you will not be grabbed. If you're grabbed, then you're doing it wrong. ^^

Counterpoint


Don't be a dumb-a**. Avoiding grabs is VERY possible as Jigglypuff. Also, don't miss techs because they can iceblock you... which can lead to a grab.

Most of the things stated so far are really obvious. Don't get grabbed and kill Nana. Jiggs is great at both of those. Against any (bad) IC that relies on chainthrows, Jiggs will win. That said if the IC is good they'll be more than capable of winning without the grabs.

If the IC's approach with Blizzard tap up. You'll escape back into the safe, happy airspace.

On rest: it is possible to accidentally rest Nana. It is also possible to rest them both (I'm gonna add the mechanic behind this to my rest thread when I get around to it). Don't DI into the blizzard or their side-b. I'm not sure if it works so that's what I'm sticking to for now. Perfect rest is useful. Only KO or water cancel with rest or you will die.

 

[Airgemini]

Does anyone else think PS2 would be a good CP?
All the transformations can interupt their CG if you happen to get grabbed, also I think the different terrain would slightly be in her favor.

 

[MrEh]

Does anyone else think PS2 would be a good CP?
All the transformations can interupt their CG if you happen to get grabbed, also I think the different terrain would slightly be in her favor.

I would just go Norfair.

I love that stage to the death. ^^

 

[Maniclysane]

Ice Climbers have the best shield in the game. If they shield get the hell out. That's pretty much all you need to know since you're in the air.

 

[PND]

Nofair, Japes, PS1 (not 2) and Frigate.

Those are the levels I love fighting ICs on. I'd put this at neutral or 55-45 either way (Although I'd tip it to Jiggs). Jiggs should not be grabbed, and we **** them off stage. Like, Alex's sig style. Watch out for random Nana footstools and I think we've got this. Stay in the air and keep 'em separated. (Come out and play? . . . reference, ignore this)

They completely neutralize or grab game, but we neutralize theirs. I think they're hit harder by this trade off than we are

Pound pops 'em in the air. Bair / Nair will separate them. Pass over dairs are awesome in this matchup.

 

[Barge]

Ice Climbers have the best shield in the game. If they shield get the hell out. That's pretty much all you need to know since you're in the air.

Actually we have one of the worst.
Its pretty much impossible to power sheild since nana reacts 8 frames slower than popo. So either popo or nana will get hit during a power shield.
You're probably mistaking their shield grabs for a good sheild, thats only against air attacks. Ground attacks push us back too much to get a good grab in, especially with our crappy grab range

 

[Maniclysane]

Actually we have one of the worst.
Its pretty much impossible to power sheild since nana reacts 8 frames slower than popo. So either popo or nana will get hit during a power shield.
You're probably mistaking their shield grabs for a good sheild, thats only against air attacks. Ground attacks push us back too much to get a good grab in, especially with our crappy grab range

You're probably right, but I was thinking like this:

A character shields, you usually grab them.
Ice Climbers shield. You grab them? No, you don't grab Ice Climbers.

What do you do when an IC's shield?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Hm from what I've read she's one of the harder characters to CG because of her light weight.

No, lighties are very easy to CG. It's harder to do heavies because the throwing anamation is extended when throwing them, so your timing has to vary with them.

I would just go Norfair.

I love that stage to the death. ^^

It's also nice because many IC's tap their stick aggressivley when CGing, which can make them go through the platform, and mess up the CG

BlahBlah grabs. Don't misspace. Ever. Whiffed rest is instant death if they are at all competent.

A good IC's will kill you if you get grabbed, but won't spam grabs. You will get Spaced with Squall and Blizzard, and camped with ice block. Never grab the IC's (why hasn't anyone said that yet?), and if you do, THROW IMMIDEATLY! They can and will punish with the remaining IC. Watch out for Blizzard at low percent, as they can grab you if you don't react well. Their smashes do very good damage, espically Dsmash. Never rollout, unless you like being a stock down. If they upB at you, watch out as it has good knockback. Their Uair has very good priority, and kills quite well. Watch out for it after a Utilt. Speaking of which, Utilt with both climbers racks up very good damage. Try not to be directly above them. Bair will often be used as an approack/kill, and it autocancels out of a shorthop, so watch out for that. Non spike Fair has decent knockback, so avoid it you are near the edge. You should be able to recover from the spike if it hits /obv.

On the other side, you are near impossible to grab, can outspace everything but blizzard, and that can be DIed out of, and is easy to punish if predicted. A good hit in will seperate the IC's, where you can just kinda **** Nana. Popo can fight on his own, but it's nearly impossible to beat jiggs on his own, since grabbing squall with only one IC is really easy, and punishing blizzard is so much easier, since they can't do desychned shenanagians without nana. He also can't camp with Ice blocks, since they are very slow and nana reliant to punish your opponent's advance. Oh, and solo climber can't recover worth S***. His only hope is to DI up and hope to make it back. He may try to Dair his way back down from above. I haven't tested it, but it seems very restable. Overall smart spacing is the most important thing to beating IC's, and that's fine, since playing Jiggs requires good spacing to begn with. Just stay off the ground.

50/50. Both characters have huge advantages against each other.

Hope it helps.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Actually we have one of the worst.
Its pretty much impossible to power sheild since nana reacts 8 frames slower than popo. So either popo or nana will get hit during a power shield.
You're probably mistaking their shield grabs for a good sheild, thats only against air attacks. Ground attacks push us back too much to get a good grab in, especially with our crappy grab range

Not to mention the fact that IC's slide like hell when they don't powersheild. Stupid low traction.

Mainc: DI away. You should have been in the air relativly far away from them anyways.

Sorry about the double post.

 

[Metatitan]

norfair sounds nice =]

 

[illinialex24]

This is the interesting thing about the matchup. Without a single grab, the IC's can still beat out a Jigglypuff if they are playing only moderately better. Yes thats right, blizzard is amazing and the like.

But if you space well, you will not get grabbed. Desyncing is really important for the IC's here.

 

[Metatitan]

blizzard and up smash just hurt... more blizzard but they have a nice up smash which shouldnt be ignored

 

[illinialex24]

blizzard and up smash just hurt... more blizzard but they have a nice up smash which shouldnt be ignored

Actually, with good spacing I don't mind their Up-smash. What I don't like is a desynced F-smash. D-smash is an issue if you roll too much, but the real hurt here is desynced squalls, blizzards, and the constant threat of a grab.

 

[Metatitan]

Actually, with good spacing I don't mind their Up-smash. What I don't like is a desynced F-smash. D-smash is an issue if you roll too much, but the real hurt here is desynced squalls, blizzards, and the constant threat of a grab.

i got hit by a d smash once.... 41% right there =/

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Actually, with good spacing I don't mind their Up-smash. What I don't like is a desynced F-smash. D-smash is an issue if you roll too much, but the real hurt here is desynced squalls, blizzards, and the constant threat of a grab.

Grabs> predicted rolls. Jiggs's roll doesn't go too far.

IMO, seperate them. Winning is drastically easier that way. And don't let the constant threat of a grab get to you. It can give them a mental advantage which they shouldn't be given.

 

[MrEh]

Nofair

norfair sounds nice =]

YES!


Chaingrabs aside though, IC's have general tricky things that need mentioning. Blizzard has been mentioned, and always remember that they have fairly quick aerials. (which aren't all that bad really)

 

[Barge]

An uncharged upsmash can kill jiggly at ~85%
Only one more reason not to get grabbed


-pokes my signature-

 

[illinialex24]

An uncharged upsmash can kill jiggly at ~85%
Only one more reason not to get grabbed


-pokes my signature-

Pokes mine

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

From an Ice Climber's point of view, there are two ways this match up can go. 1 way is that it becomes 50-50 if both players aren't as good as they can be because the Ice Climber may time when to grab wrong and miss CG's while the Jigglypuff may space wrong or use any ground game. The other way that I see it is that it becomes 60:40 because if an Ice Climber can guarantee a kill with one grab perfectly and know when to grab Jigglypuff despite her spacing and good aerial game, the match ends up from attacking each other to the game of how Jigglypuff will land. Since she has to land and being on the ground, even for the slightest moment, is risky, she is open for the Ice Climbers to grab. Though she can do a retreating attack before landing, since aerial dodging isn't going to help since it cancels the moment you land, the Ice Climbers have moves likes solo squuld all and solo blizzard to outprioritize most of these attacks and set up for the other climber to grab.

Again, the first match up I made was made in lower levels of gameplay where the character's haven't fully mastered their characters while the second match up was made for the most extreme level of perfection in both players. I still believe that IC's would win if you were looking at the "perfect" level because that would mean CG's would be instant kill and grabbing opportunities would be rarely missed. No matter how high your skill with Jigglypuff is, you still have to land on the ground, which makes you continuously open for a grab. Jigglypuff's only bet is that she can edge guard the climbers easily. The only problem for why it isn't 40-60 advantage Ice Climbers is because too many Ice Climbers don't know how to do perfect chain grabs, perfect shield, and know when to grab.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Trilogy you must assume high level play. There is no point in considering low level play.

 

[PND]

And in high level play a Jiggs will get grabbed maybe once or twice in an entire Bo3 set, if that. I think you underestimate her mobility and air speed. Yes, she has to land. But she can land anywhere at anytime. Don't forget, she can control the pace of the match too, and when she does she creates the room to regenerate her jumps. Plus she can just grab the ledge.

Just saying.

 

[Veril]

Assuming High Level Play:

Jigglypuff will be extremely difficult to grab. As we all know, ICs have a poor grab range and Jigglypuff can easily space to avoid grabs in the air. Jigglypuff doesn't have to land on the stage, she may choose to land on the stage after separating the ICs (for even a moment), or grab the ledge, or ISJR (lol not really though).

Jigglypuff will not whiff rest, period. Its totally avoidable and happens much more rarely with good players than non-mains tend to believe.


ICs can 0-D anyone with a grab right. But... the grab has little effect since it won't happen. What it will do is force Jigglypuff to space vs. grabs the whole match. It also means Jigglypuff can't grab the ICs, and grabs are believe it or not a huge component of Jiggs game.


So, grabs are not really a critical point. Lets talk about the ICs aerial game.

 

[Barge]

Well, lets see, you'll see a lot of upairs, bairs and nairs, seeing as how they're the fastest and highly prioritized IC aerials.
Upair and bair come out really quick and are great for stringing, nair lasts a long time so its kind of a "gtfo out of here" move, probably when your WOPing us.

Jiggly outranges us with fair, so we'll probably have to space bairs.
you wont see much of our dair...
IC's fair are only for gimps and chain grab spikes, though I tend to use it when Im not supposed to >_>

 

[SaltyKracka]

*Coughfallingblizzardwallcough*

 

[illinialex24]

*Coughfallingblizzardwallcough*

If it wasn't for blizzard Jigglypuff would have an advantage. She can outspace the Ice Climbers when they are on the ground very well with bair and dair, and fairly well when they are in the air with bair and dair and pound. Rising pounds can be smart in this matchup but shouldn't be as commonly used. I have found that if you shield pressure them with a retreating bair, jump with a turn and dair over them and then do 1 of a few things depending on their action, its very effective against them. If they try jump and get hit by your dair, go and attack with a bair and try to setup a chain. However, if they try to turn for a grab, just get out of there, same goes with a blizzard. However, if they tried to shield your attack, go for a retreating fair.

 

[RhedKing]

An uncharged upsmash can kill jiggly at ~85%
Only one more reason not to get grabbed


-pokes my signature-

Pokes mine

Incredible

the pwn'd finally meets the pwner

I played against an IC yesterday, basically once you kill nana, you win the stock, the same as killing popo really.

I usually thought that klling popo would be best, but at this point once one dies, the other is basically dead too.

 

[Veril]

I played against an IC yesterday, basically once you kill nana, you win the stock, the same as killing popo really.

I usually thought that klling popo would be best, but at this point once one dies, the other is basically dead too.

duh. Killing Nana is what every character has to do vs. the ICS. Jiggs just happens to be pretty good at it.

 

[SaltyKracka]

duh. Killing Nana is what every character has to do vs. the ICS. Jiggs just happens to be pretty good at it.

Spacing and attacks with large AoEs to take advantage of the ICs traction and shield troubles also work. See Zelda, Ike.

 

[KRDsonic]

I personally don't have much trouble fighting Jigglypuffs with my Ice Climbers. She's hard to chain grab, and hard to grab, so I just stick to normal fighting and desyncs, until she's at about 90%, then I'll go for the grab if I have the chance to Fthrow > Upsmash, which is an easy kill.

By the way, don't underestimate one Ice Climber. People do that too much, but don't forget, Popo's smashes are stronger than Nana's, and he can still kill you just as easily with his up smash.