Jigglypuff Matchup #8: Ice Climbers

[FrozenHobo]

The pinnacle of Smash Metagame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n6eaPUYc-A&feature=channel_page

that was some stupid **** right there.

 

[illinialex24]

that was some stupid **** right there.

No that is how you beat the IC.

 

[HiddenBowser]

That is how you beat IC's... If I don't play like that I lose... but even with playing like that, it's not that crazy in favor of MK... It's just the matchup... the jiggs v IC one is pretty similar unfortunately...

 

[illinialex24]

That is how you beat IC's... If I don't play like that I lose... but even with playing like that, it's not that crazy in favor of MK... It's just the matchup... the jiggs v IC one is pretty similar unfortunately...

Exactly, go SV if you can Jigglypuff.

 

[FrozenHobo]

No that is how you beat the IC.

running out the clock.... thats not really "beating" them, thats just winning by default.

 

[illinialex24]

running out the clock.... thats not really "beating" them, thats just winning by default.

Its fair. You have a percent advantage. Its something you have to accept if you play the IC.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Its fair. You have a percent advantage. Its something you have to accept if you play the IC.

oh i know its fair. its just...unsporting? O_o

but yeah, i know its legal (not disputing the win).

 

[RhedKing]

Yeah, It can feel cheap, but that's probably how some people win their matches.

It was close though.

 

[illinialex24]

oh i know its fair. its just...unsporting? O_o

but yeah, i know its legal (not disputing the win).

Yeah its not sportsman like. Which is why you guys likely rather fighting Snake for fun than an MK like this. Because even though he beats you generally, he goes straight at you, but with a huge number of grenades and dairs.

 

[Maniclysane]

Killing people with one grab isn't exactly "Sportsmen like"

 

[HiddenBowser]

running out the clock.... thats not really "beating" them, thats just winning by default.

no, not at freaking all...

And I'm not saying that you should run out the clock by planking the whole time. If someone is willing to run out the clock and play patient as hell, then either the other person can try to get through it... getting wrecked... or they can play patient as well. It makes every hit count and I would argue that it makes the games even more intense.

And anyways, whenever the clock runs out, both people are at fault. The time only runs out if both people are patient...

and why should I be aggressive vs an IC when they aren't being aggressive either... they just camp behind blizzards when I'm close so I need to find another way around it and it takes patients.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Killing people with one grab isn't exactly "Sportsmen like"

i don't do that..... i only use grab comboes (fthrow -> fair -> squall). i don't chain grab. don't talk to me about doing grab = kills.

 

[illinialex24]

i don't do that..... i only use grab comboes (fthrow -> fair -> squall). i don't chain grab. don't talk to me about doing grab = kills.

If you want to win tournaments you have to. And its fair.

 

[HiddenBowser]

IC's are by no ****ing means broken with the chaingrab.

 

[FrozenHobo]

IC's are by no ****ing means broken with the chaingrab. If you think they are then you ****ing suck at the game. So stop complaining scrub and just get better.

why are you so mean?

seriously though, i don't cg because i find it boring, not 'cheap'. just watching someone cg you when you might as well just put the controller down isn't my idea of 'fun'. i just surrender the match usually because i don't want to just sit there for 3 minutes of them making me do nothing.

 

[HiddenBowser]

seriously though, i don't cg because i find it boring, not 'cheap'. just watching someone cg you when you might as well just put the controller down isn't my idea of 'fun'. i just surrender the match usually because i don't want to just sit there for 3 minutes of them making me do nothing.

Without cg, IC's are absolutely terrible. Anyways, it takes like 15 seconds to cg to death and people **** up sometimes. If they **** it up once, that's basically an extra stock.

 

[FrozenHobo]

well i'm not a tourney player so i'd think no. but don't be confused: i CAN cg. pretty well actually. but i CHOOSE not to. i only really use my cgs if its important.... like if there's money involved....

 

[HiddenBowser]

well i'm not a tourney player so i'd think no. but don't be confused: i CAN cg. pretty well actually. but i CHOOSE not to. i only really use my cgs if its important.... like if there's money involved....

lmao, so let me get this straight... you can cg well but you don't cg in normal play... so you're saying that you spend time practicing the cg outside of play?... you're saying that you find cg'ing boring but yet you spend time by yourself, by your lonely *** self, practicing the cg?... LMAO you sir are... somewhat ********... congrats

And don't give me bull**** about being able to cg well and knowing the timing against every character without practice, cause that's a huge ****ing lie.

 

[FrozenHobo]

lmao, so let me get this straight... you can cg well but you don't cg in normal play... so you're saying that you spend time practicing the cg outside of play?... you're saying that you find cg'ing boring but yet you spend time by yourself, by your lonely *** self, practicing the cg?... LMAO you sir are... somewhat ********... congrats

And don't give me bull**** about being able to cg well and knowing the timing against every character without practice, cause that's a huge ****ing lie.

i DO practice. its good to know how to cg even if you don't use them. i just don't worry about the cgs because if i did my game would consist of spamming grabs all day (its happened).

and i know i'm ********. i don't see why you should care so much though?


edit: how did this even get onto being about me? i just said i thought running out the clock wasn't very sporting and you took it personally.

 

[Veril]

i DO practice. its good to know how to cg even if you don't use them. i just don't worry about the cgs because if i did my game would consist of spamming grabs all day (its happened).

and i know i'm ********. i don't see why you should care so much though?


edit: how did this even get onto being about me? i just said i thought running out the clock wasn't very sporting and you took it personally.

To make this sound more neutral:

In these matchup discussions we assume that both players involved are playing at the highest level of the metagame AND using all legal tactics available to win. We are not discussing playing a "sporting" or "ruthless" IC main, we're discussing one that plays to win.

If you refused to do CGs (I think they're really cool looking personally), that's you, and not 99.99% of iC mains. You are hindering yourself, and thus would do artificially poorly against one of the Jigglypuff posters.


I don't care, even a little bit, whether the iC players think chaingrabbing is cheap. If they want to win, they'll use it. End of "cheapness" discussion plz.

 

[Teh Future]

lmao at a Jigglypuff main saying ice climbers are horrible without chaingrabs.

Also its pretty much impossible to ledgecamp ice climbers.

 

[Veril]

lmao at a Jigglypuff main saying ice climbers are horrible without chaingrabs.

Also its pretty much impossible to ledgecamp ice climbers.

Bowyer isn't a Jigglypuff main, he plays MK.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Aside from that, playing a bad character doesn't mean they can't make smart observations. Some people realize the subparity of the character they play, yet still play that character.

Also, untapped potential stuff.

 

[Metatitan]

lmao, so let me get this straight... you can cg well but you don't cg in normal play... so you're saying that you spend time practicing the cg outside of play?... you're saying that you find cg'ing boring but yet you spend time by yourself, by your lonely *** self, practicing the cg?... LMAO you sir are... somewhat ********... congrats

And don't give me bull**** about being able to cg well and knowing the timing against every character without practice, cause that's a huge ****ing lie.

=o woah dang bowyer's gettin fired up

 

[rinoH]

nah thats nothing Meta

 

[Barge]

Ice climbers aren't completely terrible without chain grabs. Their aerials and blizzard/squallz are godlehz.

But yeah, chain grabs are a big part of their metagame, and winning.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Ice climbers aren't completely terrible without chain grabs. Their aerials and blizzard/squallz are godlehz.

But yeah, chain grabs are a big part of their metagame, and winning.

no, they're pretty ****ing terrible with cg's. Without the threat of death from getting grabbed the other player can play more aggressively and take risks wrecking their ****.

 

[kackamee]

no, they're pretty ****ing terrible with cg's. Without the threat of death from getting grabbed the other player can play more aggressively and take risks wrecking their ****.

That is true, but only to an extent.I disagree with the fact that they are terrible without CG's, But I also don't think if they didn't have them people would play more aggressively. I mean, they still have desynched blizzards, SoNa squall>Usmash, Charge SoNa smash>walk it around>squall, and plenty other mindgames for you to get by. Plus it's pretty dang harrd to get a grab agaisnt a really good player now-a-days. And like you said, some of the times even if we do get a grab, we mess up. Me and from what I've seen, the majority of the other IC mains don't focus on CG's for our sole means of winning anymore, we still use them, but usually by the time we even get a grab, the opponent is already close to dying so we just use them to rack up a little more damage/finish them off. I do agree that the IC's are worse without CG's but no where near terrible. But I mean, if you took out every characters cheapest/best move, they would be worse mirite?

 

[Metatitan]

But I mean, if you took out every characters cheapest/best move, they would be worse mirite?

True, but no move contains as much risk of falling into as the IC's cgs, unless ur samus vs ddd and ur gonna get infinited

 

[kackamee]

O.o Have you not seen the IC's grab range...? It's pretty darn awful. I mean, It's pretty easy to get whornadoed, it's pretty easy to get ___tilted by Snake, It's pretty easy to get utilted/ftilted/Grabed by DDD, get lazared by Falco, Get __Smashed by G&W, Get nanerd by Diddy, Get Lazer/Gyro/Dsmashed by ROB, Get Faired/Sphered/ftilt by Lucario, get Pikmin camped by Olimar, QAC'd/Thunderbolted by Pika, Get __Tilted or Baired by DK, etc. Most/all of those have mostly an equal or better chance of happening compared to getting grabbed by the IC's. If you approach the smart way I assure you, you won't get grabbed by an IC before you get hit by one of those moves mentioned above.

 

[PND]

I think what he means is that yes, those moves are easier to hit with. However, once the IC's get that grab your stock is lost.

You can get ftilted by Snake and survive, etc.

 

[kackamee]

I think what he means is that yes, those moves are easier to hit with. However, once the IC's get that grab your stock is lost.

You can get ftilted by Snake and survive, etc.

I know, but it's pretty darn hard to get a grab anyway, so there is no stock loss if you play well, I mean, usually when we get grabs either A: Nana is dead B: Nana is somewhere away from you so you can't CG at all C: Your already close to dying so we just finish you off with a CG. Yeah sometimes we get grabs at 0% But that like once in a set, it won't happen at all if you just space carefully and don't do sumthin stupid. You can get Ftilted by Snake atleast about 5 times before the IC's can get a grab

 

[RhedKing]

I know, but it's pretty darn hard to get a grab anyway, so there is no stock loss if you play well, I mean, usually when we get grabs either A: Nana is dead B: Nana is somewhere away from you so you can't CG at all C: Your already close to dying so we just finish you off with a CG. Yeah sometimes we get grabs at 0% But that like once in a set, it won't happen at all if you just space carefully and don't do sumthin stupid. You can get Ftilted by Snake atleast about 5 times before the IC's can get a grab

that's pretty significant though. That's like saying. "Hey wanna play me? cool now lose 1/3rd your total stock first and I'll take like 0%-40% on my first stock."

If the players are evenly matched, gg; IC's win if you assume what you just said was true.

correct me if that wasn't what you meant cause I don't want to skew your intended post (in all seriousness)

 

[kackamee]

No, you did regard my post right, but not fully. I mean, lets say your Jiggs and I'm IC's. You approach me with "Pound" and I shield it, It will go through my shield, hit Nana, and then I'd grab you, but youd get away before I could actually CG you. Or B: you would hop away before I even grab you. And even if I could CG you there is always the possibility of messing up. I'm just trying to say the IC's aren't terrible without CG's because usually most of the game, they can't use them.

 

[RhedKing]

ok I see what you're saying. Yes the IC aren't terrible without chaingrabs, and they certainly don't need CG just to play. We should assume for the sake of matchups that the IC wouldn't mess up on the CG, comparring failures makes no sense in this situations.

I wasn't saying IC is bad without CG, I just was saying it's a little unreasonable to say that CG brings very little/ nothing to your game.

Thanks for the clear up by the way.

 

[HiddenBowser]

IC's are ****ing terrible without cg... like top of low tier maybe... I'll post the reasons later when I have time.

 

[illinialex24]

ok I see what you're saying. Yes the IC aren't terrible without chaingrabs, and they certainly don't need CG just to play. We should assume for the sake of matchups that the IC wouldn't mess up on the CG, comparring failures makes no sense in this situations.

I wasn't saying IC is bad without CG, I just was saying it's a little unreasonable to say that CG brings very little/ nothing to your game.

Thanks for the clear up by the way.

Yeah, exactly what Bowyer said. Its the threat of CG's that makes them what they are and when they get a CG. Without it, this would be **** for Jigglypuff. But she has to avoid doing a lot of stuff because she has to avoid gettng screwed over by CG's. Sure desyncs and blizzard and squalls are decent, but without being worried that your gonna get grabbed, pathways open. Highways open

 

[kackamee]

ok I see what you're saying. Yes the IC aren't terrible without chaingrabs, and they certainly don't need CG just to play. We should assume for the sake of matchups that the IC wouldn't mess up on the CG, comparring failures makes no sense in this situations.

I wasn't saying IC is bad without CG, I just was saying it's a little unreasonable to say that CG brings very little/ nothing to your game.

Thanks for the clear up by the way.

I do agree that CGs are a big part of there game, but it's also alittle part at the same time. Lol if that makes sense.

Yeah, exactly what Bowyer said. Its the threat of CG's that makes them what they are and when they get a CG. Without it, this would be **** for Jigglypuff. But she has to avoid doing a lot of stuff because she has to avoid gettng screwed over by CG's. Sure desyncs and blizzard and squalls are decent, but without being worried that your gonna get grabbed, pathways open. Highways open

True but all characters have something to make their opponent more cautious and i'd say they are actually more threatening than CGs, but that's just me. =P But I can understand what you guys mean about how it's really tough to stay in just the right position so you don't get grab pwnt. But I'm just saying that they aren't terrible without CGs. And I mean, I can't count how many times I've got a Jiggs caught in a blizzard then, Usmashed them and juggled them in the air to about 90% then finish them off without a CG. Trust me, if you don't worry about the CG's and just stay away from the IC's you'll be fine, Jiggs is the hardest character to CG.

 

[Barge]

I wouldn't say top of low, maybe low middle.
Desyncs are too good.

 

[Metatitan]

I wouldn't say top of low, maybe low middle.
Desyncs are too good.

no they would be top of low at most without chaingrabs. desynch can only do so much

I do agree that CGs are a big part of there game, but it's also alittle part at the same time. Lol if that makes sense.

True but all characters have something to make their opponent more cautious and i'd say they are actually more threatening than CGs, but that's just me. =P But I can understand what you guys mean about how it's really tough to stay in just the right position so you don't get grab pwnt. But I'm just saying that they aren't terrible without CGs. And I mean, I can't count how many times I've got a Jiggs caught in a blizzard then, Usmashed them and juggled them in the air to about 90% then finish them off without a CG. Trust me, if you don't worry about the CG's and just stay away from the IC's you'll be fine, Jiggs is the hardest character to CG.

a good jigglypuff would never be juggled by the IC's inferior arial's. and blizzard would be kinda worthless without cgs because blizzard is used to try and hit pple who are trying to ourspace your grabs