Jigglypuff Matchup #5: Snake

[illinialex24]

Please discuss Jigglypuff's potential, strategy and stage counterpicks here.

And we are still doing Zelda, its just people really requested Snake and I think its fairly important we speed things up because we started the matchup discussion much later than most boards.

 

[Veril]

Snake vs. Rest

Oh, its on.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6055324#post6055324

This should be good.


Snake's F-tilt is the most frustrating bs ever. Testing it is a b****. The first hits knockback is set if you are grounded but not if you are in the air. Sometimes it trips. With the right spacing you can double stick DI back to escape... but I can't do it consistently. You can perfect rest it really easily with certain spacing, and not at all in other positions. In the air the variable knockback means anything that can be done will have a damage range.

Is it interruptible? Sometimes? How? Um... I need more time.

Ugh.


His jab x3 can be interrupted but its complicated. You have to SDI just right and airdodge down at the right angle to rest. That's if you're grounded and not at the outer edges of the hitbox. In the air. OMG pain in my a***. On the upside, you have multiple options if hit with the second Jab. You can interrupt the third hit with rest or waveland into a grab. This move can be negated... I'm just figuring out the specifics now. Literally a totally different method is being developed for this one move. I'm going to try to apply it to other jab combos (large character). Fascinating

EDIT: OMG crazy stuff here. Also, working on the crazy double stick DI thing against the f-tilt. I'll try to get video of it uploaded somewhere.

As far as snake's aerial base goes, his nair is dangerous, but I expect it can be ADI'd out of, or DI'd into for a rest.

His n-air and d-air are straightforward SDI to rest interrupts. The forward air has such a long warm-up that its very easy to perfect rest. The up and back air... don't try anything with those.


Mortar Slide: perfect rest. do it. It KO% much earlier than a normal rest. The earliest you can KO snake period. Learn to perfect rest the Mortar slide. Learn to grab him out of it. Learn to pound it. If you can deal with this move it helps you a ton.



UPDATE 1/4: Snakes mortar is outprioritized by Jigglypuff's down-air. This really reduces the effectiveness of snakes mortar. Be sure to exploit this whenever possible.

 

[RhedKing]

Well I'll start off with snake's annoying mortar slide.

This move seems fairly straight forward to punish, just a dropping pound does the trick, and trumps the mortar slam part.

But if snake launches the actual projectile, Jigg's can go straight down with the wonderful air dodge to shield, and roll. Of course snake has ways to punish the roll from here (That infamous f-tilt knee combo, which I won't discuss), so the jiggs should probably roll away from snake. (or do what ever Veril's gonna say)

The other option would be to air dodge diagonally down to shield, and the just grab. Jigg's then has a 80% chance that she will not get hit by the mortar, and has a 40% chance that if she is hit the knock back will not affect her (basing this off of charge levels and mortar height, and the amount of time it takes for jiggs to do her back grab and shield/spot dodge)

All in all in this one example Jigg's has fairly clear advantages.

As far as snake's aerial base goes, his nair is dangerous, but I expect it can be ADI'd out of, or DI'd into for a rest. His Uair and Bair are good as well, but pound trumps them both and so does Dair (to the snake Bair only) The missile is harmless, as are the grenades but his ground set is b****in' against jiggly puff as far as I can see.

Do you think Snake Mainers will respond like the Zelda Mainers did? It's almost feels like having a guest appearance on a talk show.

 

[illinialex24]

This definitely isn't a Jigglypuff advantage which is why I am doing it. U-tilt ***** her every approach. Nade whoring really hurts her.

 

[Veril]

This definitely isn't a Jigglypuff advantage which is why I am doing it. U-tilt ***** her every approach. Nade whoring really hurts her.

Punishing the mortar slide with rest results in the lowest possible % KO. Everyone should exploit that and learn the timing to perfect rest. Nade whoring has some positives for Jiggs. Overall I agree though. Snake has a very large advantage as of now. Up-tilt is the devil. I hope PNDMike has some input regarding that move.

 

[RhedKing]

Really, I've never seen the grenade as being effective... I'll take your word for it though.

Yes snake's utilt is extremely good, but I did say that.

his ground set is b****in' against jiggly puff as far as I can see.

That would include the tilt, I was only talking about the Usmash mortar slide.

The way I see it, it's very hard for jiggs to engage snake from the diagonal as usual, because of that tilt (also in some circumstances the triple jab is insanely effective against jiggs) so jigg's could engage horizontally, but that brings up the f-tilt again.

 

[Veril]

The up-smash mortar slide is not by any means the worst thing snake can do to Jiggs. Not even close. Learning the still pound technique would be very useful against this. As of now I use wave-bounced pounds if necessary.

 

[RhedKing]

I know that, that's what I was talking about, although you make a good point that just straight off resting it is the most effective way to handle it, I wasn't sure how reliable it would be, but if it works, I'll definitely go with that.
I was just discussing it since it's something snakes like to do, I never said It was good against jigglypuff.

I blame my sub-par grammar for all of this.

 

[SuSa]

SuSa just owned Air. (Social + General discussion)

Jigglypuff General Discussion

Due to complaints about how this board is so inactive and doesn't have any fun, I'm making this thread in hopes to bring this board a little back to life. This thread is in no way a spam thread, but rather a thread to just talk about general things about Jigglypuff and maybe yourself if you want. Also this thread can be used to talk about things that don't really deserve its own thread (favorite costumes, glitches, etc.)​

Rules​

:jigglypuf Global Rules apply here
:jigglypuf No spam allowed
:jigglypuf If this thread gets even a little out of hand, I'll close it for a couple of days, or maybe weeks
:jigglypuf Lets try to be nice to each other, and no flaming
:jigglypuf I WILL infract for people who don't take these seriously​

 

[Maniclysane]

70:30 his advantage. If your spacing is PERFECT you can hit and run with bair, with little problems. If he starts a mortar slides pound. Juggle him with uair, and stay the hell away from his ftilt. This match is really easy for snake if you're not carful.

I just choose Olimar for this matchup, so all my Jiggz experience is from friendlies.

 

[SuSa]

I forgot to mention I think its 65:35 Snake...

It's an uphill battle, but not quite impossible.

 

[Maniclysane]

I forgot to mention I think its 65:35 Snake...

It's an uphill battle, but not quite impossible.

utilt kills at 50ish% percent on Jiggz. Rest kills snake at like, 130%. ftilt does like, 20%. Theres not much we can do.

 

[RhedKing]

Yeah I totally overlooked the sheer damage Snake does. Although jiggs can hit snake with stronger moves, the damage per hit ratio is so bad for jiggs that it becomes very difficult.

I'm gonna optimistically say 60:40, only because snake's air base is weak and once he's up there a good jigg's will keep him up till the kill.

Also depends on Snake's play style, if he uses spacing a lot, then it could get harder to approach.

 

[SuSa]

utilt kills at 50ish% percent on Jiggz. Rest kills snake at like, 130%. ftilt does like, 20%. Theres not much we can do.

lol @ 50%

Try 81% with no DI.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

o noes! this is that time of day huh?
*sighs* i really hate this matchup. Its too hard. MK is easier, but snake does not seem harder than a 60:40..... But thats what I feel.

 

[Dragoomba]

I'm gonna optimistically say 60:40, only because snake's air base is weak and once he's up there a good jigg's will keep him up till the kill.

Isn't that stretching it a bit?

 

[SuSa]

Isn't that stretching it a bit?

Not at all.

I've been juggled to death by a Jiggz, and I recently juggled to death my friend.

I've seen both sides, it's not pretty.

PS:

I know most Jiggz are probably used to using a throw besides uthrow, but if you do manage a grab. Uthrow. Only use uthrow, get him in the air.

Use utilts when you're close enough, and just juggle him. That's all you have is you're juggle.

Unless you're a master at perfect rest or some ****.

1 :mewtwo: 345 Created using PokeScript - by Havokk

 

[illinialex24]

Isn't that stretching it a bit?

Yeah it is but the numbers I don't think so that much. A good Jigglypuff can punish a Snake but with grabs, and the ability to screw with him. If you are facing away from him, a good Snake will just fast fall a bair, so you aren't gonna do anything by attacking him. Instead, punish his bair with a grab. Front side you can bair **** him. Offstage you will never gimp him but guess what, you can get 50% or so on him. Trust me, his ability to get like 30 recoveries will never allow you to gimp a good Snake more than like once every hundred games, but you can rack damage upon him.

I like 60-40, but it requires you to know how to play this matchup.

And yeah Havokk, U-throw or D-throw is the best one. Waveland is great here, you should be a grab ***** here.

 

[SuSa]

"but it requires you to know how to play this matchup."

Matchups are assuming both characters are being played at their highest level of play, this already assumes you know the matchup.



Also by gimp, you get him offstage then just WoP him. His up-B isn't so godlike as to be able to avoid it... just make sure to switch between nair and fair, I can't even count the amount of times this has happened to my Snake...

Snake's weakness is in the air, and getting juggled. There is really nothing he can do about the fair/nair WoP besides dying, or getting EXTREMELY risky with a c4 recovery, etc.

 

[MrEh]

Although it may sound silly, if you're ever in a position to grab Snake over a ledge, use a grab release.

When Snake jumps out of a grab, he jumps a sizable distance away from you. (that means he just took a big leap off the stage) That's a good time to follow up with some Jiggs edgeguarding, since Snake is very vulnerable to this.

 

[RhedKing]

Where'd all 29 of those extra recoveries come from? When snake upB's he has FSA, you fair, pound or bair him to get him off of it and then once more for the kill.
I'm really not being sarcastic, I just don't know where he get's the extra recoveries. When you hit him he gets it again, like any character.

Is there a glitch or something cause other wise just keep fairing snake till he dies (yes fair is also a verb)

On a side note, pit is hilarious to WoP because his Wings of Icarus DIE when hit once. SO GREAT!

 

[PND]

This depends a bit on the stage.

With no platforms, I agree 100% with Havokk's numbers and writeups, although I'd wager a stretch to 70-30.

WITH platforms, I firmly believe that, given theoretically the same skill level between players, this match is unwinnable for Jiggs. Look at my lylat chart to see exactly how Jiggs is completely shut down from approaching effectively.

I'd put it at 80-20 Snake there. But I'm biased, because I main Snake. (Jiggs is my ex-main, now she's a solid secondary)

 

[SuSa]

This depends a bit on the stage.

With no platforms, I agree 100% with Havokk's numbers and writeups, although I'd wager a stretch to 70-30.

WITH platforms, I firmly believe that, given theoretically the same skill level between players, this match is unwinnable for Jiggs. Look at my lylat chart to see exactly how Jiggs is compeltely shut down from approaching effectively.

I'd put it at 80-20 Snake there. But I'm biased, because I main Snake. (Jiggs is my ex-main, now she's a solid secondary)

I main Random, and therefore everyone.


But you are right on the stage choice, some stages will completely shut down Jiggz against Snake.....


ps:

Don't take Snake to Lylat. Ever. It's one of his best stages + your worst stage.

 

[MrEh]

PNDMike's chart is awesome.

 

[Veril]

I've added a bit of info to my first post on this thread.

I swear this testing is gonna give me an aneurysm.

 

[Maniclysane]

lol @ 50%

Try 81% with no DI.

Shh. Let me pretend that when I live past 50 I don't suck at brawl. <3

 

[brinboy789]

lol @ 50%

Try 81% with no DI.

according to illialex's guide to jiggs, snake dies at 103% with good DI

 

[Maniclysane]

according to illialex's guide to jiggs, snake dies at 103% with good DI

He was talking about how early Jiggz dies, not snake.

 

[rinoH]

ftilt for snake is actually prtty easy to DI out of

 

[Spoonbob]

Whenever I come to this thread that chart hypnotizes me.

 

[Metatitan]

Ah snake this should be fun...

Anyways based on any snake experience ive had uthrow tends to work if they try holding a grenade and shieldcamping you. Off the stage rests work wonders in friendlies (tournament play i guess u would just WoP him). His tilts absolutely massacre us and grenades make rollout meaningless in this matchup. Overall for this matchup, my advice would be to pray the snake likes to motor slide so you can get your rest on him. Regardless snake's broken tilts make jiggs cry

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Utilt is BROKEN.

Approaching this guy is a B****. I mostly resort to dashgrabs to get in his defense. You will always get 50% or more, often a kill in the air. Just be very smast in your approaches, and don't get Utilted. It's really about a smart approach, since his range dominates yours.

Also take him to rainbow cruise SOOOOOO good against snake.

65/35 snake

 

[Turbo Ether]

Rainbow Cruise really isn't that bad of stage for Snake.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Rainbow Cruise really isn't that bad of stage for Snake.

O RLY?

Why, pray tell?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

O RLY?

Why, pray tell?

Snake does very well with stage control. If snake occupies the correct areas on rainbow cruise he can still have good stage control and there for, will not do that bad on the stage.

The boat section of the stage is like any other stage really, it's a small area, has platforms and somewhat large flat area from the front to the back. Snake can does well on this part of the stage.

When you go to the next bit after the boat and the stage area starts to rise, this is probably snakes worst area of Rainbow Cruise. With the stage rising, platforms beneath you going away snake has to be on the move and does not control the stage very well here.

Once you past the pendulum platform onto the area with the more relatively flat area, snake starts to gain momentum here. His mortar slide can be put to good use. Then after that area you start over on the boat.

So overall, certain areas of RC are good for snake and others are not so good.

 

[illinialex24]

Snake does very well with stage control. If snake occupies the correct areas on rainbow cruise he can still have good stage control and there for, will not do that bad on the stage.

The boat section of the stage is like any other stage really, it's a small area, has platforms and somewhat large flat area from the front to the back. Snake can does well on this part of the stage.

When you go to the next bit after the boat and the stage area starts to rise, this is probably snakes worst area of Rainbow Cruise. With the stage rising, platforms beneath you going away snake has to be on the move and does not control the stage very well here.

Once you past the pendulum platform onto the area with the more relatively flat area, snake starts to gain momentum here. His mortar slide can be put to good use. Then after that area you start over on the boat.

So overall, certain areas of RC are good for snake and others are not so good.

Yeah, but because there are longer parts on the top platform and the boat, I wouldn't recommend it. I would choose Jungle Japes and Mute City (I HATE YOU SAKURAI, NO MUTE CITY!!!!!!!). But I would choose Japes but I think the secondary would be Smashville.

 

[Veril]

Update on my first post added. Its small but useful.

I'm putting a lot of time into escaping the F-tilt. Overswarm is wrong. You can ADI out of it.

 

[RhedKing]

ORLY?!

that would be really awsome.

as the sing guy, I see little use for sing on snake, the mortar slide could be hit with sing on pulse two though then of course to rest.

Could work on f-tilt if he plans to only hit with the second (aka you landed just far enough from him to sing and by the time he advances with second hit, sleep on pulse two)

both quite situational.

overall sing>snake?
F*** NO.

but then again you could punish him the reliable way(veril's way)

 

[Maniclysane]

But I would choose Japes but I think the secondary would be Smashville.

Lol, Smashville isn't that bad for snake. Planting a mine on the floating platform is really good. I would stick to Japes I guess.

@Rhed: Sing is a terrible move. Every possible moment rest could be used, pound would be better. Rest would be better. uair would be better. nair would be better. Stop trying to use sing. It's terrible. I have no problem with you trying to make it a useful move. Until you find uses for it (Besides ledge canceled sing), then don't bring it up.

 

[illinialex24]

Lol, Smashville isn't that bad for snake. Planting a mine on the floating platform is really good. I would stick to Japes I guess.

Umm yeah you know each player can ban 1 stage.....