Mew2King
King of the Mews
looking at his other matches, i think he plays vs olimar the best, mk dittos well, but i don't think he knows as much about marth/snake
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Japanese Video Thread
- Thread starter Xiao-Xiao
- Start date
@clowsui
I'd appreciate if you wouldn't throw out so many blanket statements. I don't want people to come up with disrespectful things such as MikeHaze supposedly being "bad" against Falco or baseless claims about Mikeneko being "worse" vs MK even though no Marth managed to do better vs Rain and him having a set win over Otori. If you feel otherwise you're free to voice your opinion privately but unless you have results or thourough knowledge of their exact records please don't post your opinions here. This isn't just for you but for everybody.
I'd appreciate if you wouldn't throw out so many blanket statements. I don't want people to come up with disrespectful things such as MikeHaze supposedly being "bad" against Falco or baseless claims about Mikeneko being "worse" vs MK even though no Marth managed to do better vs Rain and him having a set win over Otori. If you feel otherwise you're free to voice your opinion privately but unless you have results or thourough knowledge of their exact records please don't post your opinions here. This isn't just for you but for everybody.
Yukhoe isn't that successful in singles. His biggest accomplishments are all from doubles.
clowsui
Smash Legend
That's fair, I'll respect your wishes.
Thanks for understanding.
Keep in mind that you're still free to discuss the videos and topics in this thread, similarly to how Mew2King does. If there's some interesting tactic you've seen in one of these vids and think it's not used well in other regions you're welcome to spark some discussion.
Keep in mind that you're still free to discuss the videos and topics in this thread, similarly to how Mew2King does. If there's some interesting tactic you've seen in one of these vids and think it's not used well in other regions you're welcome to spark some discussion.
Numaburamovie has uploaded videos of the last SRBT tourney [east of Japan] ... it took place at the exact same date as Sumabato 12 [whose results I don't have yet].
1. Rain - MK
2. Nietono - Oli
3. Mikeneko - Marth
4. Kuroobi - Snake
Very interesting results. That's the highest I've seen Marth place in a while. Always nice to see him place well.
Looking forward to watching the videos.
I have to agree 100% with M2K on his point about player familiarity. It's the primary reason I think Rain did so well against Neitono. Personally I find this to be a very big factor. I will beat players I play often and then these same players (I consider to be worse than me) will randomly beat players I consider better than me that they don't play often. It's obviously because I just know them better.
New videos of Sumabato 12 are on the westsmash channel now. I will watch them and give an info update once I'm finished.
It appears the results are something like this:
1st 9B - IC / DDD
2nd SLS - Falco / MK
3rd Souther - Snake
4th Earth - Pit
5th busa - Snake
5th Saka^2 - MK
But I can't confirm any of that yet.
It appears the results are something like this:
1st 9B - IC / DDD
2nd SLS - Falco / MK
3rd Souther - Snake
4th Earth - Pit
5th busa - Snake
5th Saka^2 - MK
But I can't confirm any of that yet.
Naridax
Smash Journeyman
From the tourney videos, I saw 9B only play Ice Climbers. He played King Dedede in a friendly.
And SLS is once again defeated by 9B. But, wow, has he improved! Who else has three-stocked 9B?!
And SLS is once again defeated by 9B. But, wow, has he improved! Who else has three-stocked 9B?!
Mew2King
King of the Mews
mk vs ICs is the gayest MU, me and vinnie have 3 stocked each other and I've seen 3 stocks but lose the set and the other way around both ways before, apparently Japan is no exception. I've seen in old vids SLS 2 stock 9b but also 9b beat him taking like 30 damage. I think it's one of the gayest MUs in brawl
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
I like how people be like. yo Japan Marth almost beat Nietono, Japan is the best at the MU.
Geez, Rain is winning tourneys over there, he got 'wrecked' here does it mean Japan suck *** vs MKs? Nah, like M2K said, they probably are used to eachother.
Actually, this thread is totally meatriding Japan, we out! AMERICA 2-1 ATM.
Geez, Rain is winning tourneys over there, he got 'wrecked' here does it mean Japan suck *** vs MKs? Nah, like M2K said, they probably are used to eachother.
Actually, this thread is totally meatriding Japan, we out! AMERICA 2-1 ATM.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
^ Eats Noobpuffs everyday.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
Agreed. But not only MK vs. ICs, basically every ICs MU is extremely stupid. Its like flipping most of the time, as one mistake (from both sides) can mean a stock, lol.
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Gheb_01, that you know of has there been any activity from "Yie"?
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Yeah Kie. Sorry, I didn't catch that typo. Yeah I'm curious. I find their Peaches more enjoyable to watch.
There's a new video of Kie up on the westsmash channel where he plays vs busa [Snake].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YUb...UCGXQYbcTJ33Yix5gqfWWcOLkt6ixVX80sb3IJY2dn9Tk
Suinoko has posted the results here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14071757#post14071757
Translated brackets coming soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YUb...UCGXQYbcTJ33Yix5gqfWWcOLkt6ixVX80sb3IJY2dn9Tk
Suinoko has posted the results here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14071757#post14071757
Translated brackets coming soon.
Keitaro
Banned via Administration
Looking forward to those translated brackets. I wanna know who Otori lost to so others can hear.
Frow what I can see Otori either lost to Rain or Kuroobi.
Frow what I can see Otori either lost to Rain or Kuroobi.
Rain lost to Nietono in Winners
Nietono lost to Rain in GF twice
Mikeneko lost to Nietono and Rain
Kuroobi lost to Nietono and Rain
Shu [5th] lost to Nietono and Rain
Brood [5th] lost to Mikeneko and Kuroobi
Otori [7th] lost to Brood and Rain
Yui [7th] lost to Brood and Kuroobi
Kakera [9th] lost to Shu and Yui
That's what I could make out of the bracket and what's really important. The rest is translated for completion and to see some upsets such as El placing only 13th.
Nietono lost to Rain in GF twice
Mikeneko lost to Nietono and Rain
Kuroobi lost to Nietono and Rain
Shu [5th] lost to Nietono and Rain
Brood [5th] lost to Mikeneko and Kuroobi
Otori [7th] lost to Brood and Rain
Yui [7th] lost to Brood and Kuroobi
Kakera [9th] lost to Shu and Yui
That's what I could make out of the bracket and what's really important. The rest is translated for completion and to see some upsets such as El placing only 13th.
I'm probably not the only that's noticed this but Nietono has an absolutely terrible rolling habit. I feel it really cost him vs Rain. Maybe he's not used to facing people that could actually punish it.
Seriously, he was doing the sorts of rolls you'd expect from someone just entering the comp. scene like rolling forward when near the edge. Olimar's roll is so bad I doubt it's worth attempting it much if at all.
Maybe there is something I'm not understanding. But it's not like MK where one is worried about a lot of other stuff so he gets away with it more than he should.
Seriously, he was doing the sorts of rolls you'd expect from someone just entering the comp. scene like rolling forward when near the edge. Olimar's roll is so bad I doubt it's worth attempting it much if at all.
Maybe there is something I'm not understanding. But it's not like MK where one is worried about a lot of other stuff so he gets away with it more than he should.
Keitaro
Banned via Administration
A lot of people were talking about Nietono's rolling habit at Apex and how they thought they could **** him for it but then he got 2nd haha. I didn't see Nairo fight Nietono in winners of Apex but Ally really had Nietono's rolls read very well. Nietono still won the set though.
I have been thinking about this theory for a while and it's a 3-part explanation. Perhaps the best players get away with stuff simply because they are the best players. Allow me to explain:
1. A top player might be so proficient in other fundamentals that something like a bad rolling habit might not be enough to prevent them from placing high. They can get away with it simply because they are so good in other areas.
2. The mind-state when facing a top player might affect a players ability to punish simple things they would normally have no trouble punishing. It may be intimidating to face Nietono knowing all the hype that surrounds him and one goes in expecting to lose and thus does consequently worse.
So while this player would have no problem punishing every bad habit of a random Olimar he considered a scrub when facing a top level player that all changes. In other words just the fact of being labelled as a top player puts them at a psychological advantage.
3.
High level tourny players are just not used to dealing with "newbie" or "lower level" tactics. Therefore, they wouldn't be nearly as good at punishing say obvious rolls or spam or even fishing for kills, as a mid level player that plays with his casual friends all the time would be. I know it sounds absurd but if this is true it means scrubby tactics become viable sometimes just because of obscurity.
I could be wrong and quite frankly I hope I'm wrong but I've seen too many top players get away with stuff which seemed easily punishable. And these are the only explanations that make sense to me.
Of course, someone that is obv. very familiar with Neitono and knows all about this habit, was expecting it despite it not being common at high level play and was thus able to punish it (Rain). And being another top player he wasn't intimidated.
1. A top player might be so proficient in other fundamentals that something like a bad rolling habit might not be enough to prevent them from placing high. They can get away with it simply because they are so good in other areas.
2. The mind-state when facing a top player might affect a players ability to punish simple things they would normally have no trouble punishing. It may be intimidating to face Nietono knowing all the hype that surrounds him and one goes in expecting to lose and thus does consequently worse.
So while this player would have no problem punishing every bad habit of a random Olimar he considered a scrub when facing a top level player that all changes. In other words just the fact of being labelled as a top player puts them at a psychological advantage.
3.
High level tourny players are just not used to dealing with "newbie" or "lower level" tactics. Therefore, they wouldn't be nearly as good at punishing say obvious rolls or spam or even fishing for kills, as a mid level player that plays with his casual friends all the time would be. I know it sounds absurd but if this is true it means scrubby tactics become viable sometimes just because of obscurity.
I could be wrong and quite frankly I hope I'm wrong but I've seen too many top players get away with stuff which seemed easily punishable. And these are the only explanations that make sense to me.
Of course, someone that is obv. very familiar with Neitono and knows all about this habit, was expecting it despite it not being common at high level play and was thus able to punish it (Rain). And being another top player he wasn't intimidated.
Fair enough.
But at the same time if a thoroughly mediocre player such as myself can punish Oli's roll with relative ease, top players with far better reaction timings that tend to buffer everything should be having zero problem with it. These are some of the best players in the world we are talking about. Of course the standards should be much higher and I don't feel his roll is good enough to be consistently working at high level play.
Perhaps some rolls are okay or at least not easily punishable such as MKs because of spacing factors (Reflex did a very good post about this) but I doubt this applies to Olimar.
But at the same time if a thoroughly mediocre player such as myself can punish Oli's roll with relative ease, top players with far better reaction timings that tend to buffer everything should be having zero problem with it. These are some of the best players in the world we are talking about. Of course the standards should be much higher and I don't feel his roll is good enough to be consistently working at high level play.
Perhaps some rolls are okay or at least not easily punishable such as MKs because of spacing factors (Reflex did a very good post about this) but I doubt this applies to Olimar.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Yeah I agree with Gheb. I think theres a more obvious option that wasnt considered, that rolling isnt as bad as people think it is. Im not sure calling it a habit is the right words because habit implies that hed likely do it even if it were a bad option. Just because he rolls frequently does not mean he isnt making smart use of it, and just because hes punished for attempting the option does not necessarily mean he wasnt using it in a smart way.
Keitaro
Banned via Administration
^ Exactly what I have been thinking.
Given how many times he was punished for it during his 2 sets with Rain, I'd say it's enough proof to show it was being used poorly and Rain was ready to punish it (when it was feasible). These two factors combined made it a poor option in context.
If he was facing someone that never punished it I'd agree that in context against that particular player, it was a decent option. But like I said, at such high level there really shouldn't be anyone like that. But I suppose that's irrelevant since there are.
Of course there is always a chance Nietono knows something about it we don't. But we can't really say it was because he was just off his game, look at his other videos. It's a habit.
If he was facing someone that never punished it I'd agree that in context against that particular player, it was a decent option. But like I said, at such high level there really shouldn't be anyone like that. But I suppose that's irrelevant since there are.
Of course there is always a chance Nietono knows something about it we don't. But we can't really say it was because he was just off his game, look at his other videos. It's a habit.
Not to mention he kept getting gimped. Those really helped Rain a lot in the first GF set considering the games were still relatively close at the end.
I am going to watch the set again later. I will see if Rain was punishing the rolls initially or if he started doing it more as GF went on.
I am going to watch the set again later. I will see if Rain was punishing the rolls initially or if he started doing it more as GF went on.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Honestly I dont think its a secret. Players are just so conditioned to think that rolling is so bad that it happens less often.
I only saw the third set, Rain was definitely better at punishing the rolls but I think its being exaggerated to how often it happened. There were also times where nietono didnt roll after hed been punished once or twice, while Rain tossed out a move expecting it. I saw it less as "rains destroying nietono for his rolling habit" and more as "rain isnt getting destroyed by roll and forcing nietono to use multiple options". Ill have to watch again.
I only saw the third set, Rain was definitely better at punishing the rolls but I think its being exaggerated to how often it happened. There were also times where nietono didnt roll after hed been punished once or twice, while Rain tossed out a move expecting it. I saw it less as "rains destroying nietono for his rolling habit" and more as "rain isnt getting destroyed by roll and forcing nietono to use multiple options". Ill have to watch again.
I think Rain's main strength in adaption is not how fast he does it but how thoroughly he does it. I can see why M2K thinks he's a genius because once Rain adapts to something it looks like the opponent just can't get that one step ahead of him anymore that you need to win. His set vs Nietono kind of illustrates that really well - the longer the set lasted, the more dominant he became.
Likewise, at Apex he lost to ES@M / D3HF, whom he just didn't have enough time to adapt to.
Likewise, at Apex he lost to ES@M / D3HF, whom he just didn't have enough time to adapt to.
Conviction
Human Nature
Sorry everyone! Work is keeping me from translating atm, I'll get to right after work
Mew2King
King of the Mews
no way, vs Olimar, Rain fights perfectly, but vs Marth he is not nearly as good imo. He could mix up drop off Nairs to trade with up Bs at times (not often but as a mixup) and use dimension cape fakeouts and mixups, and there is more small things about the MU he doesn't know.
at Apex, I believe (not 100% sure but i THINK ally told me this) rain beat ally in 2 mk dittos in a money match but then lost 3 in a row to his snake. I feel like Rain's style is the best in the world vs olimar, also really good at mk dittos, (probably due to experience in these 2 MUs) but he doesn't know everything about fighting snake and marth.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
is there vids of Otori vs Rain MK dittos?
and otori beat nietono this past Apex but lost to brood here that's interesting
and otori beat nietono this past Apex but lost to brood here that's interesting
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
I meant he just seems pretty strong at gimping and offstage. I think youre one of the few MKs thats noticeably better (maybe seibrik too?), although I dont spend a large amount of time studying meta knight players.
I see what you mean about him vs Marth though, I was rewatching his set vs Mike at Genesis and he wasnt doing terribly well. His early offstage kills allowed him to clutch it out.