Wii Mote
Smash Rookie
Only one that I don't agree with is on Shulk. Personally I see him as at least C-Tier, especially after seeing and picking up on what ZeRo's been able to do with him in his Videos
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Japanese Tier List by SHI-G March '15 (Version 1.0.2)
- Thread starter Jucchan
- Start date
- Status
MapleWooD
Smash Journeyman
Why isn't Shaq SS tier
JaySaladJay
Smash Rookie
Yoshi is definitely a great character, but I feel B would be a bit better fit.
TheSuperiorOne
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2015
- Messages
- 28
Ganon is the real S tier
MapleWooD
Smash Journeyman
Totall, Kappa
MapleWooD
Smash Journeyman
No official one yet, you can check out the Smashborads voted one here: http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-...version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/
untouchable farts
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2015
- Messages
- 1
Why is Wario top Tier?
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
pikachu pi kachu (pikachu that low at least better than mario)
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2014
- Messages
- 284
- NNID
- Marigi174
- 3DS FC
- 3652-0615-5300
WARNING: WALL OF TEXT -- PROCEED WITH CAUTION
There are so many problems with this tier list that it is very difficult to take it seriously.
Firstly, there is the problem regarding bias. This bias isn't based around what the council play, but it is about the play styles it seems to be promoting. If this tier list were giving out a message, it would be that a character with a heavily offensive, in-your-face playstyle - often referred to as 'Rush-down' - is significantly better than any others. Not only is that an insult to characters that display more spaced, defensive play styles *cough*Marth and Mii Gunner*cough* but it also shows a complete ignorance towards the fact that a character which can afford to hang back is going to have a far easier time reaching a point where they can KO than those that need to come in at the mercy of their wall of pain before then having to handle the onslaught of melee attacks that these characters have. Sure they can combo once they're in, but as soon as their opponent can break away they are once again at the mercy of another wall of pain. This is particularly glaring with Sonic, who's complete lack of a projectile and low air speed makes negotiating walls of projectiles that much harder, and that brings me nicely to the next point.
Sonic is hands down the most overrated character in the game. There is no way that he is A rank - especially in the upper bracket - and there are just do many characters in A and B who simply perform better than him in a wider variety of match ups, namely Rosaluma, Ness, Zamus, Luigi, Duck Hunt, ROB, Pikachu and Megaman. Much of this is from personal experience, but I'll even go as far as paraphrasing M2K to help me support my point: "Megaman has a higher chance of making top ten than Sonic." Add to this the fact that his slightly improved KO ability from Braw does not justify such an insane rise, even with the offensive shift of the metagame, and you have what is stupidity at its finest, and this is a criticism of more than just this list, but also a criticism of a large portion of the community's dillusions (the community is still awesome tho :D). Now I apologise if this sounds like me hating on the list (and part of the competitive community - which is not a representation of how great and supportive the community is beyond this dillusion) due to the character, but I have much more to say before I get judged. And don't even get me started on Luigi's idiotically low placement, as he is easily within the ten greatest characters in the game, I'd say approximately 7th or 8th (maybe one or two spaces outside of that range in either direction).
There is so much wrong with the lower half of this list that you begin to question whether Japan has seen enough of the characters used well in competitive play to make an effective judgement on a log of the characters in C and below. Firstly, Dark Pit is in C. Pit and Dark Pit are so similar to one another that it is insanely hard to justify why they do not share a sub-tier with one another, let alone a completely separate tier altogether. Pit is better, yes, but they should be placed on literally adjacent places due to the fact that their only differences are based on trajectories, be it of their weapon or how they launch their foe. Next up there is Lucario, who is simply so versatile and powerful that it is hard to justify why he is in a 'middling' tier. He is medium-weight, requiring a good amount of damage on him before he can be KOed, and this results in hi reaching power levels where he can easily take you out in 5-6 hits in conjunction with rage. My hunch about why he is so low is that he loses to rush down, which is a strategy which is of an unjust overration.
Greninja is another character which has got the luigi treatment on this list, and quite frankly I see zero reason as to why it is not in mid/low B. It's high speed and combo ability in conjunction with its great projectile and ability to chain beyond combos to restart racking up damage makes it so good at getting in using methods that other "better" characters can not, and it allows it to have a neutral or positive matchup with the vast majority of characters. And then there are the links. *sigh* what were they thinking, putting Link so much lower than Toon Link, who is arguably the worse of the duo. This seems like another case where there is a rush-down bias that has completely eclipsed the fact that Link is better at what it does. Add to this Link's ability to crouch cancel jab trap and it has a far easier time racking up damage when up close, and the fact that he actually has weight in conjunction with a slightly longer tether means that he isn't KO'd before 100% on a regular basis.
Next up is olimar... Why is it not even in b? It boggles the mind, especially after its 2nd place run at Apex 2015. He is the best way of handling Diddy Kong at the moment for christ sake, being one of very few characters with a positive matchup in the faceoff. Olimar's buffs were easily enough to push it above the middle of the list, and his significantly better KOing ability shows how it has been modified in a way that makes it suited to the more offensive SSB4 metagame. People are too hung up on how it is lower than it was in brawl despite it just being due to the more defensive nature of the game, and this makes people forget the shift in the offensive direction that has occurred alongside the metagame. And then there's Bowser. Any character that is that powerful both in the air and on the ground who also has great recovery in the mashable spinning fortress and gimping discourager in his body slamming move, which can reset momentum by killing both parties with bowsercide or gain extra recovery at points where it could shift momentum in Bowser's favour. Add to this the monstrosity that is his side smash and neat zoning tool in fire breath and he is a solid B rank.
Now onto D. If you thought C was bad, there is a lot more to come in D and E. Firstly Shulk; what... the... ****!?! There is no way that Shulk is a mediocre or underwhelming character. He is so versatile in the way that he plays courtesy of the monado, his range is greater than that of any other sword character and he is one of the easiest characters to perform a zero-to-death using courtesy of Buster's high damage output and increased comboing ability in conjunction with Smash's brutal knockback. Add to this how insanely good his jabs, aerials and smashes all are, allowing him to rack up heavy damage from a safe distance, and his great KOing potential with a variety of attacks - including [insert smash attack here], FAir, BAir and DAir - and the fact that his tilts combo into KO moves well and he is a genuinely threatening character. He is also no slouch at recovering either. With his ability to disable his currently active Monado art at any point by pressing B 2-3 times in rapid succession and his ability to activate Jump in midair, he can easily recover from a long way out by simply changing arts. And then there is Game and Watch. Game and Watch is an absolute monster when used well. He maintains the ability to combo out of his down throw for insane damage, and against characters with somewhat powerful projectiles, he can even KO many characters at 0% using a down throw to Oil Panic combination (the latter of which does not stale like regular attacks do), and if he doesn't KO them he launches them a long way and deals a **** tonne of damage in the process. And then there is the windbox on his up air. This is an insane tool for getting your opponent to land where you want them to, as well as being capable of killing off of the top from ~130%. Game and Watch just has so many mixup options and is capable of comboing out of down throw for so much longer than other characters using a wide range of attacks ranging from his up tilt to Oil Panic to FAir to NAir to the parachute, and having such a wide range of options he can use without even needing to go for the down throw.
Dr. Mario is given a bad wrap in this game based around his poor recovery. However, if he is able to get a grab between 0-2% (not likely, but it isn't my main arguing point), he is capable of performing a re-grab combination. The only other character which is capable of performing a re-grab combination is Mario, who can do it between 0-5%. For Doc, it is down throw to up tilt to grab, while Mario can re-grab twice assuming the opponent is at 0% using the combination down throw to up tilt to up tilt to grab to down throw to up tilt to jab to grab. These allow them to combo for longer vs. a wide variety of non-floaty characters, and with particular success vs. the space animals due to their very high falling speed. Doc is also criticised for his quote-on-quote "lacking comboing ability" despite the fact that he has almost as easy a time comboing as Mario does, sacrificing the ability to perform multiple up tilts in succession for the ability to juggle the opponent for longer with up airs and having an easier time finishing combos with his decidedly better combo-ender in his own Super Jump Punch, which forces the opponent to the edge a the mercy of your edgeguarding attmepts or back down to the ground at the risk of getting juggled again. He is worse than Mario, sure, but he can make better use of his b-reverse than Mario can due to him maintaining more aerial momentum when using his pellets than Mario does with his fireballs and he has a far easier time camping due to the higher bounce of his pellets, so he shouldn't be ranked any more than a subrank or two below Mario tbh.
Mii Gunner being in D is an absolute insult to the character, and it further reinforces the bias towards rush down characters that this list is showing. Before you accuse me of character bias on this, let me just make something very clear: Mii Gunner is by far the most solid of the Mii fighters in normal tournament conditions (customs off, neutral size/weight only), with his 1111 moveset not being complete and utter garbage, featuring four moves which are somewhat useful as opposed to the three of the brawler. Add to this its insanely good zoning options and great ways of dealing damage from a distance and you have a solid B to high C character. I am genuinely baffled at what their reasoning behind this could be tbh, as if the claim is a lack of KO potention they are very, very mistaken. And then there is Jigglypuff - the king of the air, the greatest character at escaping combos using his floaty weight and the user of the strongest KO move in the game. There is just so much you can do with Jigglypuff that it is confusing as to why it is considered mediocre by this list. It isn't a rush down character, but its insane aerial maneuverability - which surpasses its mobility on the ground - allows for a very good mixup ability, and I get the feeling that there simply haven't been enough Jigglypuff users in major tourneys for them to have seen it used to its full potential.
Robin being in E rank is an insult to tactical play, with Robin being the perfect embodiment of a Fire Emblem game in Smash. Once again it isn't rush-down, but you actually have to think before you use it, unlike the vast majority of the upper tiers. This means its usage is limited to those who understand that maintaining a distance until you can find the perfect time to approach is necessary to playing a character which, if you look beyond the skin, has what is easily the most effective playstyle in the game, and it allows the player lots of room to breath and maintain a level-headed state of mind that you simply do not get with so many other characters, and that alone is enough to push it up at least into C. Add to this how powerful a tool his Eldin Sword (or whatever its called) is, as well as the fact that you can actually score KOs with his discarded tomes, which have knockback rivaling that of Thoron, if not exceeding it outright, and it shows that you need to use the tools that are given to you when playing in a way that is similar to that of ZSS's armour fragments from Brawl, which allowed her access to items right from the start of the match without needing to draw any.
The fact that WiiFit is in mid E is baffling considering how powerful a large number of the tools that it has access to are. Firstly, there is the volleyball. This is insane not only for edgeguarding, but also for covering your own recovery, zoning (helped by its variable fire-off time if you press B before it does so automatically), getting extra lift on recoveries in a similar fashion to Marth's side special and Mario's cape... the list goes on. Speaking of recovery, Super Hoop is an amazing tool for recovering, having insane range and vertical speed when mashed. This allows WiiFit to easily mixup his/her recoveries in conjunction with many of the options that are available to them. Add to this the powerful aerial game, a large number of options on the ground for starting combos, a powerful KO option in F-Smash, constant healing from neutral special and Deep Breathing and the nice power boost from the latter makes a more accurate representation of the character to be low C or high D. And then there's Zelda. Zelda is SOO much better now. Sakurai has put in so much work to make her genuinely usable that it is glorious. She should not be ranked very high, but D would be a better placement than E courtesy of her greatly improved KO potential and zoning capability. Add to this her great ability to break out of combos with Nairo's Love (pun intended due to Nairo being able to play Zelda) makes her a solid choice in pools/earlier rounds of a tournament due to her surprise value.
Finally, we reach Marth and Lucina. These are two solid characters, the former of which is virtually unchanged from Brawl outside of losing the ability to chain grab. Marth and Lucina are capable of performing the imfamous Ken Combo, have very long-range (albeit slightly predictable) recovery with Dancing Blade, up special and Sheild Breaker all aiding recovery from long distances. Add to this their high power and KO potential, as well as their ability to play out of the range of most jabs and grabs, and you have two solid characters. Lucina is worse, but second worst in the game? I don't think so. Marth is solid, with tipper F-smash KOing most characters from around 80%, and allowing him to deal heavy damage outside of the aforementioned range. Add to this their great mixup and comboing ability and you have two rather solid characters. IMO they should be high D, if not low C.
Rant over. Feel free to argue for/against any points in this wall of text.
There are so many problems with this tier list that it is very difficult to take it seriously.
Firstly, there is the problem regarding bias. This bias isn't based around what the council play, but it is about the play styles it seems to be promoting. If this tier list were giving out a message, it would be that a character with a heavily offensive, in-your-face playstyle - often referred to as 'Rush-down' - is significantly better than any others. Not only is that an insult to characters that display more spaced, defensive play styles *cough*Marth and Mii Gunner*cough* but it also shows a complete ignorance towards the fact that a character which can afford to hang back is going to have a far easier time reaching a point where they can KO than those that need to come in at the mercy of their wall of pain before then having to handle the onslaught of melee attacks that these characters have. Sure they can combo once they're in, but as soon as their opponent can break away they are once again at the mercy of another wall of pain. This is particularly glaring with Sonic, who's complete lack of a projectile and low air speed makes negotiating walls of projectiles that much harder, and that brings me nicely to the next point.
Sonic is hands down the most overrated character in the game. There is no way that he is A rank - especially in the upper bracket - and there are just do many characters in A and B who simply perform better than him in a wider variety of match ups, namely Rosaluma, Ness, Zamus, Luigi, Duck Hunt, ROB, Pikachu and Megaman. Much of this is from personal experience, but I'll even go as far as paraphrasing M2K to help me support my point: "Megaman has a higher chance of making top ten than Sonic." Add to this the fact that his slightly improved KO ability from Braw does not justify such an insane rise, even with the offensive shift of the metagame, and you have what is stupidity at its finest, and this is a criticism of more than just this list, but also a criticism of a large portion of the community's dillusions (the community is still awesome tho :D). Now I apologise if this sounds like me hating on the list (and part of the competitive community - which is not a representation of how great and supportive the community is beyond this dillusion) due to the character, but I have much more to say before I get judged. And don't even get me started on Luigi's idiotically low placement, as he is easily within the ten greatest characters in the game, I'd say approximately 7th or 8th (maybe one or two spaces outside of that range in either direction).
There is so much wrong with the lower half of this list that you begin to question whether Japan has seen enough of the characters used well in competitive play to make an effective judgement on a log of the characters in C and below. Firstly, Dark Pit is in C. Pit and Dark Pit are so similar to one another that it is insanely hard to justify why they do not share a sub-tier with one another, let alone a completely separate tier altogether. Pit is better, yes, but they should be placed on literally adjacent places due to the fact that their only differences are based on trajectories, be it of their weapon or how they launch their foe. Next up there is Lucario, who is simply so versatile and powerful that it is hard to justify why he is in a 'middling' tier. He is medium-weight, requiring a good amount of damage on him before he can be KOed, and this results in hi reaching power levels where he can easily take you out in 5-6 hits in conjunction with rage. My hunch about why he is so low is that he loses to rush down, which is a strategy which is of an unjust overration.
Greninja is another character which has got the luigi treatment on this list, and quite frankly I see zero reason as to why it is not in mid/low B. It's high speed and combo ability in conjunction with its great projectile and ability to chain beyond combos to restart racking up damage makes it so good at getting in using methods that other "better" characters can not, and it allows it to have a neutral or positive matchup with the vast majority of characters. And then there are the links. *sigh* what were they thinking, putting Link so much lower than Toon Link, who is arguably the worse of the duo. This seems like another case where there is a rush-down bias that has completely eclipsed the fact that Link is better at what it does. Add to this Link's ability to crouch cancel jab trap and it has a far easier time racking up damage when up close, and the fact that he actually has weight in conjunction with a slightly longer tether means that he isn't KO'd before 100% on a regular basis.
Next up is olimar... Why is it not even in b? It boggles the mind, especially after its 2nd place run at Apex 2015. He is the best way of handling Diddy Kong at the moment for christ sake, being one of very few characters with a positive matchup in the faceoff. Olimar's buffs were easily enough to push it above the middle of the list, and his significantly better KOing ability shows how it has been modified in a way that makes it suited to the more offensive SSB4 metagame. People are too hung up on how it is lower than it was in brawl despite it just being due to the more defensive nature of the game, and this makes people forget the shift in the offensive direction that has occurred alongside the metagame. And then there's Bowser. Any character that is that powerful both in the air and on the ground who also has great recovery in the mashable spinning fortress and gimping discourager in his body slamming move, which can reset momentum by killing both parties with bowsercide or gain extra recovery at points where it could shift momentum in Bowser's favour. Add to this the monstrosity that is his side smash and neat zoning tool in fire breath and he is a solid B rank.
Now onto D. If you thought C was bad, there is a lot more to come in D and E. Firstly Shulk; what... the... ****!?! There is no way that Shulk is a mediocre or underwhelming character. He is so versatile in the way that he plays courtesy of the monado, his range is greater than that of any other sword character and he is one of the easiest characters to perform a zero-to-death using courtesy of Buster's high damage output and increased comboing ability in conjunction with Smash's brutal knockback. Add to this how insanely good his jabs, aerials and smashes all are, allowing him to rack up heavy damage from a safe distance, and his great KOing potential with a variety of attacks - including [insert smash attack here], FAir, BAir and DAir - and the fact that his tilts combo into KO moves well and he is a genuinely threatening character. He is also no slouch at recovering either. With his ability to disable his currently active Monado art at any point by pressing B 2-3 times in rapid succession and his ability to activate Jump in midair, he can easily recover from a long way out by simply changing arts. And then there is Game and Watch. Game and Watch is an absolute monster when used well. He maintains the ability to combo out of his down throw for insane damage, and against characters with somewhat powerful projectiles, he can even KO many characters at 0% using a down throw to Oil Panic combination (the latter of which does not stale like regular attacks do), and if he doesn't KO them he launches them a long way and deals a **** tonne of damage in the process. And then there is the windbox on his up air. This is an insane tool for getting your opponent to land where you want them to, as well as being capable of killing off of the top from ~130%. Game and Watch just has so many mixup options and is capable of comboing out of down throw for so much longer than other characters using a wide range of attacks ranging from his up tilt to Oil Panic to FAir to NAir to the parachute, and having such a wide range of options he can use without even needing to go for the down throw.
Dr. Mario is given a bad wrap in this game based around his poor recovery. However, if he is able to get a grab between 0-2% (not likely, but it isn't my main arguing point), he is capable of performing a re-grab combination. The only other character which is capable of performing a re-grab combination is Mario, who can do it between 0-5%. For Doc, it is down throw to up tilt to grab, while Mario can re-grab twice assuming the opponent is at 0% using the combination down throw to up tilt to up tilt to grab to down throw to up tilt to jab to grab. These allow them to combo for longer vs. a wide variety of non-floaty characters, and with particular success vs. the space animals due to their very high falling speed. Doc is also criticised for his quote-on-quote "lacking comboing ability" despite the fact that he has almost as easy a time comboing as Mario does, sacrificing the ability to perform multiple up tilts in succession for the ability to juggle the opponent for longer with up airs and having an easier time finishing combos with his decidedly better combo-ender in his own Super Jump Punch, which forces the opponent to the edge a the mercy of your edgeguarding attmepts or back down to the ground at the risk of getting juggled again. He is worse than Mario, sure, but he can make better use of his b-reverse than Mario can due to him maintaining more aerial momentum when using his pellets than Mario does with his fireballs and he has a far easier time camping due to the higher bounce of his pellets, so he shouldn't be ranked any more than a subrank or two below Mario tbh.
Mii Gunner being in D is an absolute insult to the character, and it further reinforces the bias towards rush down characters that this list is showing. Before you accuse me of character bias on this, let me just make something very clear: Mii Gunner is by far the most solid of the Mii fighters in normal tournament conditions (customs off, neutral size/weight only), with his 1111 moveset not being complete and utter garbage, featuring four moves which are somewhat useful as opposed to the three of the brawler. Add to this its insanely good zoning options and great ways of dealing damage from a distance and you have a solid B to high C character. I am genuinely baffled at what their reasoning behind this could be tbh, as if the claim is a lack of KO potention they are very, very mistaken. And then there is Jigglypuff - the king of the air, the greatest character at escaping combos using his floaty weight and the user of the strongest KO move in the game. There is just so much you can do with Jigglypuff that it is confusing as to why it is considered mediocre by this list. It isn't a rush down character, but its insane aerial maneuverability - which surpasses its mobility on the ground - allows for a very good mixup ability, and I get the feeling that there simply haven't been enough Jigglypuff users in major tourneys for them to have seen it used to its full potential.
Robin being in E rank is an insult to tactical play, with Robin being the perfect embodiment of a Fire Emblem game in Smash. Once again it isn't rush-down, but you actually have to think before you use it, unlike the vast majority of the upper tiers. This means its usage is limited to those who understand that maintaining a distance until you can find the perfect time to approach is necessary to playing a character which, if you look beyond the skin, has what is easily the most effective playstyle in the game, and it allows the player lots of room to breath and maintain a level-headed state of mind that you simply do not get with so many other characters, and that alone is enough to push it up at least into C. Add to this how powerful a tool his Eldin Sword (or whatever its called) is, as well as the fact that you can actually score KOs with his discarded tomes, which have knockback rivaling that of Thoron, if not exceeding it outright, and it shows that you need to use the tools that are given to you when playing in a way that is similar to that of ZSS's armour fragments from Brawl, which allowed her access to items right from the start of the match without needing to draw any.
The fact that WiiFit is in mid E is baffling considering how powerful a large number of the tools that it has access to are. Firstly, there is the volleyball. This is insane not only for edgeguarding, but also for covering your own recovery, zoning (helped by its variable fire-off time if you press B before it does so automatically), getting extra lift on recoveries in a similar fashion to Marth's side special and Mario's cape... the list goes on. Speaking of recovery, Super Hoop is an amazing tool for recovering, having insane range and vertical speed when mashed. This allows WiiFit to easily mixup his/her recoveries in conjunction with many of the options that are available to them. Add to this the powerful aerial game, a large number of options on the ground for starting combos, a powerful KO option in F-Smash, constant healing from neutral special and Deep Breathing and the nice power boost from the latter makes a more accurate representation of the character to be low C or high D. And then there's Zelda. Zelda is SOO much better now. Sakurai has put in so much work to make her genuinely usable that it is glorious. She should not be ranked very high, but D would be a better placement than E courtesy of her greatly improved KO potential and zoning capability. Add to this her great ability to break out of combos with Nairo's Love (pun intended due to Nairo being able to play Zelda) makes her a solid choice in pools/earlier rounds of a tournament due to her surprise value.
Finally, we reach Marth and Lucina. These are two solid characters, the former of which is virtually unchanged from Brawl outside of losing the ability to chain grab. Marth and Lucina are capable of performing the imfamous Ken Combo, have very long-range (albeit slightly predictable) recovery with Dancing Blade, up special and Sheild Breaker all aiding recovery from long distances. Add to this their high power and KO potential, as well as their ability to play out of the range of most jabs and grabs, and you have two solid characters. Lucina is worse, but second worst in the game? I don't think so. Marth is solid, with tipper F-smash KOing most characters from around 80%, and allowing him to deal heavy damage outside of the aforementioned range. Add to this their great mixup and comboing ability and you have two rather solid characters. IMO they should be high D, if not low C.
Rant over. Feel free to argue for/against any points in this wall of text.
MapleWooD
Smash Journeyman
DIDN'T READ LOL
Aguki90
Smash Ace
Thanks for defending Olimar by the way. He had a Godly grab and Hoo-haa. Yes Olimar can hoo-haa is have a red Pikmin d-throw with a purple pikmin up air in 110%-120$ damage. I did some players very salty about it.
I feel the Mii swordfighter is the worse. Their special are really good but most of the attack leave you wide open and has soo much lag 90% of the moves. Is even bad attack in the air because is you attack on low jump it will lag in every single air attack... every single one, is just that bad, even ganondorf has less lag that swordfighter in the air and better perfomence of power. At least some the attack deal high damage and blows.
Is you choose what Mii type is best to worse. Here is my opinion:
1.Brawler
2.Gunner
3.Swordfighter
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2014
- Messages
- 284
- NNID
- Marigi174
- 3DS FC
- 3652-0615-5300
I'm not sure if the mii bit was directed at me or just a general point, so this is just in case. If it wasn't directed at me, sorry :]
I didn't say Sword Fighter was good. Sword Fighter is absolute garbage. If I mistyped (I don't think I did, but just to cover my back), I meant Gunner. Mii Gunner just has so much versatility compared to Brawler that gives it a better matchup vs. a greater number of chars, and I just think that there haven't been enough Gunner (and by extention Brawler) users for the voting group to make a good judgement on the quality of the character.
IMO, it goes:
- Gunner
- Brawler
- Sword Fighter
Last edited:
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2014
- Messages
- 284
- NNID
- Marigi174
- 3DS FC
- 3652-0615-5300
It was an analysis of what a typical S/A rank character looks like on that list. It does not apply in all cases, as shown by Villager and RosaLuma (idk what Wario does so I won't talk about him), but considering that 6/9 S/A rank characters are rushdown (7 if Wario does turn out to be rush-down, but I don't know the character well enough to say anything there) it is safe to say that is what is being put across.
Zionaze
Smash Ace
For every character that goes up.
There's a character that goes down.
And no matter how strong/viable a character is, if there's no one to represent him then he's going to stay low.
There's a character that goes down.
And no matter how strong/viable a character is, if there's no one to represent him then he's going to stay low.
sogeki
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2015
- Messages
- 315
- NNID
- MexicanSaiyan
Yes! Oh my god! Someone else who thinks Wario is top 10 in this game!
Edit: Did you know that he can also heal from eating WFT's soccer balls?
Last edited:
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Theory crafting how characters can be good doesn't indicate they are better, but you are basing their strengths in the best possible scenarios without evaluating my opponents strengths. If I'm Zelda, what options do I have against Sheik besides waiting for my opponent to make a huge mistake? Or if I'm against Sonic, who can dash attack punish all of my options? My aerials aren't safe and my specials can only punish. Think about the scenario from both sides and tell me how good they are.
Also, I main Marth, and have done so in every smash game he has been in. He can not Ken combo at all; he can hardly combo.
Sorry dude/dudet, I can't agree with your statements.
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2014
- Messages
- 284
- NNID
- Marigi174
- 3DS FC
- 3652-0615-5300
Ken has shown the ken combo being done with Marth already .-.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsHydWQBM7o
And so have other people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuY0fxmPkrY
Last edited:
As I have mentioned previously on both the Marth and Lucina boards, that's not a true combo, that will miss unless the opponent responds incorrectly. That Jigglypuff clearly performed DI inwards which led to the string hitting. You can both DI out, or airdodge and the string will miss.
All of those characters are better than doc in other reasons such as better movesets
MarioMeteor
Smash Hero
I don't know what game you've been playing, but Ganondorf, Shulk, and Mac are not better than Doc.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Completely incorrect. Dark Pit's arrows do 1% more uncharged and like 3% more charged and his Fspecial does one-half of a % more then Pit's. Knockback on his arrows is roughly the same as Pit's. His Electroshock has a completely different angle meaning it can potentially kill quicker then Pit's Upperdash, but that's both not very likely and negated by the fact the Upperdash KOs even quicker on platforms. Dark Pit is really just for Electroshocking people offstage, namely those with bad recoveries.
And he also has that God-awful, weak-for-no-apparent-reason Ftilt. The only reason people thought he was better in the first place was because people were seeing things that weren't there. Like how everybody think's Falco's Dair gets buffed every update.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Falco's Dair get buffed in the first large update. It was painfully slow, but now it's somewhat bearable. It's still a good lingering hitbox though if you don't like using Nair (still, not that good).
TyGotKrazyy50
Smash Rookie
Seeing Jigglypuff in E, Olimar in D, and Link in D makes me want to scream ;_;How I would put my tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Not from what I see in the code. http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/ I see his Fair has some minor changes, but that's about it.
Foxman8425
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1
it would change a lot considering villagers' custom down special timber counter.
BrokenFiend
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 21
I never understood why Dr. Mario is below Mario in every tier list. If anything just that Down B alone should elevate him.
MapleWooD
Smash Journeyman
Doc got nerfed when transitioning into Smash 4 while Mario got uber buffed
BrokenFiend
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 21
I guess unless I played either of them a lot in their previous forms, which I didn't, I wouldn't understand it.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
The big thing is that Doc's recovery is pretty terrible. Uspecial in particular is about one Mario shorter then Mario's, cape doesn't do squat in the air, and the tornado both isn't reliable because of the mashing required and doesn't make up for the Uspecial and cape nerfs. Running speed is also a sore spot.
VioletScarlett
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 17
I... really don't feel like Luigi, Villager and MegaMan should by so far up.
... Also why is Pit above Dark Pit? Isn't Dark Pit better, because his Electro-Clubber pushes you sideways?
... Also why is Pit above Dark Pit? Isn't Dark Pit better, because his Electro-Clubber pushes you sideways?
Troykv
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2015
- Messages
- 3,990
The Pit's Tilts are better than the Pittoo's
VioletScarlett
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 17
How so? o:
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
vs. Arrows do 2% by default and can be controlled much like PK Thunder. Arrows do 3% by default and can only be reangled slightly. Upperdash Arm does 11% and launches straight up, KOing consistently regardless of horizontal position. Electroshock Arm does 11.5% and launches at an angle, KOs quicker at the sides. Useful for intercepting recoveries. Ftilt has decent knockback, KOing at a good % for a tilt on a character who has a hard time KOing.. Ftilt has meh knockback, not being able to KO at any decent %.Not kidding when I say that's it.
VioletScarlett
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 17
Not kidding when I say that's it.
That's... Not much.
Last edited:
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Better then the "too much" Doc and Lucina got.
LunarWingCloud
Smash Lord
FINALLY someone brings this up.
The reason characters like Diddy and Sheik are so high is not their playstyle specifically. It is that their moveset COMPLIMENTS THAT PLAYSTYLW HEAVILY AND EFFECTIVELY.
The reason defensive characters such as Duck Hunt are kinda low is because their moveset doesn't fully compliment their most effective playstyle. That's just one of several factors.
Also Rosalina despite being able to do rushdown is far from a rushdown character, and her Luma heavily compliments a defensive, cautious playstyle, which is why she is good.
I can go on and on here but the point here is please look deeper into each character. The reason rushdowns are more viable in general is not because hurr durr Rushdowns too OP, most of the top and high tier rushdown types just have effectively complimenting movesets to help them do what they are best at.
Marigi174
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2014
- Messages
- 284
- NNID
- Marigi174
- 3DS FC
- 3652-0615-5300
Just thought I'd make a few comments on this, as this seems like an indirect response to my post.
- I never denied that Diddy and Shiek were v. effective. Its just a few - namely Sonic - which I feel show a huge bias towards the playstyle.
- A lot of defensive characters' movesets do complement their playstyles v. well. You're example of Duck Hunt is quite a long way off considering that it has by far the best wall of pain in the game, which easily complements its defensive playstyle. ROB is another example of this.
- I'm just going to quote a previous post of mine in response to the rosalina point relating to rushdown:
- Status