Japanese Tier List by SHI-G March '15 (Version 1.0.2)

[KingGimpy]

I honestly cant see how Doc is 8 Tiers below Mario, How Diddy owns S, Or how Mac stays in C, but i found this good nonetheless.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Not to mention spectacular air, edgeguarding, and camping game above all else. DDD is super underrated in Sm4sh for all that he's got going for him.

Best heavyweight him or bowser.
But Charizard is mental to if you know how to use him right.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Best heavyweight him or bowser.
But Charizard is mental to if you know how to use him right.

He's still heavy, which means he gets comboed easily and his air speed is bad. I don't know what you think he has priority on, but it's more like long range and disjoints than actual priority. His only really fast attacks are UTilt, FTilt, DTilt and NAir and other characters in the roster, especially top tiers have faster attacks than those.

As far as heavyweights go, Wario has the easiest time getting in against him and doing damage, not to mention Wario's air speed and other tools let him run circles around Dedede. Wario pretty much dominates the other heavyweights.

 

[Troykv]

He's still heavy, which means he gets comboed easily and his air speed is bad. I don't know what you think he has priority on, but it's more like long range and disjoints than actual priority. His only really fast attacks are UTilt, FTilt, DTilt and NAir and other characters in the roster, especially top tiers have faster attacks than those.

As far as heavyweights go, Wario has the easiest time getting in against him and doing damage, not to mention Wario's air speed and other tools let him run circles around Dedede. Wario pretty much dominates the other heavyweights.

Wario is the best "Heavyweight" because speed, the other Heavyweights (except the "middle-heavy" weight Yoshi) are so slow...

*insert Sonic's Pun here*

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Not a good reason. Ganondorf, Shulk, Mac, Fox, and Falcon all have bad recoveries, yet they're higher than him.

Did you just say Fox has bad recovery. Wow. You must see the game differently from what I see. SMH.

 

[FireToast]

Is this before or after the 1.06 patch? Because with the patch it seems that Rosalina would be higher than Diddy, then again Japanese players don't have quite the same play-style as American players from what I've seen.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Did you just say Fox has bad recovery. Wow. You must see the game differently from what I see. SMH.

Did I stutter? Yes, that's what I said. Fire Fox takes a good second or two to charge, and Illusion is predictable. Why do you think no Fox ever goes offstage?

 

[Troykv]

Is this before or after the 1.06 patch? Because with the patch it seems that Rosalina would be higher than Diddy, then again Japanese players don't have quite the same play-style as American players from what I've seen.

Before... Is from March.

 

[•Saıls•]

I think no one should be in between Pit and Dark Pit. They're practically the same characters with very few differences. Don't know why DHD should be higher than Dark Pit but not higher than Pit.

 

[The Smashor]

You know the second sakari finds out about this an update will come out to change it, right? so arn't teir lists, pointless?

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Did I stutter? Yes, that's what I said. Fire Fox takes a good second or two to charge, and Illusion is predictable. Why do you think no Fox ever goes offstage?

Hello? What does charging time have to do with th distance a recovery travels. Yes someone could meteor smash you if they got the opportunity but Fox can get back on the stage a lot better then some other characters. I think what you meant is Fox's recovery isn't safe right?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Hello? What does charging time have to do with th distance a recovery travels. Yes someone could meteor smash you if they got the opportunity but Fox can get back on the stage a lot better then some other characters. I think what you meant is Fox's recovery isn't safe right?

Hey, what's up? Unsafe recovery and bad recovery are one in the same if the opponent knows how to punish it. Your ability to get back on stage means nothing if you leave yourself vulnerable while doing so.

 

[FireToast]

Before... Is from March.

I just thought that he might have updated the post.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Wario is the best "Heavyweight" because speed, the other Heavyweights (except the "middle-heavy" weight Yoshi) are so slow...

*insert Sonic's Pun here*

Exactly. Most of the top tier characters have really fast mobility of some kind and/or really fast attacks. Example: Yoshi's NAir comes out in like 3 frames and it can be hard to approach unless you have long range. Bowser runs fast and his attacks come out fast, but he suffers from alot of endlag on his attacks, which is something alot of top tier characters don't have unless it's on their Smash Attacks.

 

[Marigi174]

Sonic lost anything which made him top tier in the recent patch. He isn't that good anymore due to all of his kill potential being removed in the patch. Now he's like he was in brawl without endless recovery (i.e. neutral special spam).

 

[Meek Moths]

Sonic lost anything which made him top tier in the recent patch. He isn't that good anymore due to all of his kill potential being removed in the patch. Now he's like he was in brawl without endless recovery (i.e. neutral special spam).

so that's why i was beating every sonic player i recently fought. and i though it just meant sonic players are bad

oh wait

 

[MarioMeteor]

Sonic lost anything which made him top tier in the recent patch. He isn't that good anymore due to all of his kill potential being removed in the patch. Now he's like he was in brawl without endless recovery (i.e. neutral special spam).

The only thing he lost was 2% off of his Spin Dash and the KO power off of his back throw.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

The only thing he lost was 2% off of his Spin Dash and the KO power off of his back throw.

I haven't played Sonic in awhile. How often were BThrow KOs really essential?

 

[MarioMeteor]

I haven't played Sonic in awhile. How often were BThrow KOs really essential?

With Rage it could reliably KO in the middle of the stage at 80% and above. I'd say pretty often.

 

[Marigi174]

Yeah. The B-throw nerf was the nail in Sonic's coffin tbh.

 

[Kangaexe]

Important to note that almost every character is viable to even win a tournament. Every character is balance enough where they only reason theyd be at a staggering disadvantage would if if they can be gimped easily (like Ganon V Sheik)

Of course if youre using a low tier there is an objective disadvantage to a high tier, but it doesnt hinder you as much as it does in Brawl or Melee.

Also important to note is that with so many characters its hard to get a lot of good mains on every character. Pac-man is higher in Japan because theres a few more Pac mains there it seems.
It seems that the biggest reason that a tier list for this game is so subjective is because the game is so balanced.

Personally I think it should be split into 3 categories. High, Mid and Low for the tier list. I think its easy to say which fighters are the best and which are the worst. Then everyone else falls in between. Just an idea.

 

[Kangaexe]

With Rage it could reliably KO in the middle of the stage at 80% and above. I'd say pretty often.

On ZSS type of light 119% can kill from the other side of the stage. Id imagine on a midweight 80% wouldnt be reliable from the middle of the stage, but maybe im underestimating Rage a lil

 

[jcx]

Not a good reason. Ganondorf, Shulk, Mac, Fox, and Falcon all have bad recoveries, yet they're higher than him.

Shulk's recovery isn't bad, but it's not god-tier either. This is coming from a Shulk player who has enough experience with him as with my main.

Fox, on the other hand, has excellent recovery. I don't have the experience, but I know it is a high step up from Falco's in terms of distance and start-up lag.

Ganon, Mac, and Falcon, though? I agree. Mac's air game is trash altogether (no sh*t), Ganon had the worst recovery in Brawl (it hasn't changed much despite all the buffs), and Falcon is Ganon's base (semiclones, shmemiclones)

 

[MarioMeteor]

Shulk's recovery isn't bad, but it's not god-tier either. This is coming from a Shulk player who has enough experience with him as with my main.

Fox, on the other hand, has excellent recovery. I don't have the experience, but I know it is a high step up from Falco's in terms of distance and start-up lag.

Shulk's recovery is extremely gimpable, and if you hit him out of his double jump, chances are he won't come back.
Fire Fox takes about one or
two seconds to charge up, giving you plenty of time to do whatever you want to him. It goes farther than Falco's, but the charge time is about double.

On ZSS type of light 119% can kill from the other side of the stage. Id imagine on a midweight 80% wouldnt be reliable from the middle of the stage, but maybe im underestimating Rage a lil

You are. Anything that can kill at 80% from the middle of the stage is reliable.

 

[Kangaexe]

Shulk's recovery isn't bad, but it's not god-tier either. This is coming from a Shulk player who has enough experience with him as with my main.

Fox, on the other hand, has excellent recovery. I don't have the experience, but I know it is a high step up from Falco's in terms of distance and start-up lag.

Ganon, Mac, and Falcon, though? I agree. Mac's air game is trash altogether (no sh*t), Ganon had the worst recovery in Brawl (it hasn't changed much despite all the buffs), and Falcon is Ganon's base (semiclones, shmemiclones)

Shulk's Up-B as a recovery move is, on the scale of Up-B's in the lower quarter due to it only going straight up and him having very limited movement after doing it. Fox's recovery is great but predictable and his one biggest weakness apart from his weight (which says more about how good he is then how bad his recovery is). And as am ex-Falcon main his recovery is only bad against some of the faster air characters or people who have had lots of experience edge guarding deep

 

[jcx]

Shulk's Up-B as a recovery move is, on the scale of Up-B's in the lower quarter due to it only going straight up and him having very limited movement after doing it. Fox's recovery is great but predictable and his one biggest weakness apart from his weight (which says more about how good he is then how bad his recovery is). And as am ex-Falcon main his recovery is only bad against some of the faster air characters or people who have had lots of experience edge guarding deep

That's true. Fox's recovery has lots of start-up... As for the Monado boy, the only good part about his recovery is the second slash, which adds some air time...

 

[jcx]

Shulk's recovery is extremely gimpable, and if you hit him out of his double jump, chances are he won't come back.
Fire Fox takes about one or
two seconds to charge up, giving you plenty of time to do whatever you want to him. It goes farther than Falco's, but the charge time is about double..

Shulk's recovery isn't that bad, though. Distance is good, and the second slash gives him more air time, but you do have a point. I get gimped all the time with him. Jump art helps, but not to a really good extent.

 

[Troykv]

I honestly cant see how Doc is 8 Tiers below Mario, How Diddy owns S, Or how Mac stays in C, but i found this good nonetheless.

The Doc and Mario Thread is simple: Doctor Mario has lower Air Speed and poor recovery... Also, the cape anymore help with the recovery problem.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The Doc and Mario Thread is simple: Doctor Mario has lower Air Speed and poor recovery... Also, the cape anymore help with the recovery problem.

Incorrect, actually, Dr. Mario's air speed is the same as Mario, his ground speed is what's lower.

 

[Troykv]

Incorrect, actually, Dr. Mario's air speed is the same as Mario, his ground speed is what's lower.

Oh? Seriously?... *Looking SSBWiki*

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Differences_from_Mario

Well yes... Looks like the problem with Dr. Mario is basically have poor recovery.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Oh? Seriously?... *Looking SSBWiki*

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Differences_from_Mario

Well yes... Looks like the problem with Dr. Mario is basically have poor recovery.

That's still not enough to get me to understand the notion that people have that Doc is several tiers below Mario.

 

[Marigi174]

That's still not enough to get me to understand the notion that people have that Doc is several tiers below Mario.

Doc's comboing ability is significantly worse than that of Mario. This is coming from someone who uses both characters a fair amount, and I can tell you right now that Doc is forced into up air chains far sooner than his less-educated counterpart. His up tilt knocks the opponent back too far to reliably chain into a second up tilt, his down throw only combos into up tilt up to rather low percents (I can't remember exactly as i don't pay that much attention to the percent meter, but i know it isn't that high) and this makes it significantly harder for a Doc player to rack up serious damage. However, he does have that insane kill move in his down special and has a far easier time scoring the KOs (and ending combos due to his up special's mechanics), so overall he only a tiny bit below where I would put him (I'd put him in the same tier as Peach if it was my choice), but him being a long way below Mario is the right way to go with Doc.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Doc's comboing ability is significantly worse than that of Mario. This is coming from someone who uses both characters a fair amount, and I can tell you right now that Doc is forced into up air chains far sooner than his less-educated counterpart. His up tilt knocks the opponent back too far to reliably chain into a second up tilt, his down throw only combos into up tilt up to rather low percents (I can't remember exactly as i don't pay that much attention to the percent meter, but i know it isn't that high) and this makes it significantly harder for a Doc player to rack up serious damage. However, he does have that insane kill move in his down special and has a far easier time scoring the KOs (and ending combos due to his up special's mechanics), so overall he only a tiny bit below where I would put him (I'd put him in the same tier as Peach if it was my choice), but him being a long way below Mario is the right way to go with Doc.

This makes sense. Characters like Shiek, while unable to KO early, have an ability to get percents up faster. There's not much point in having alot of knockback on a move if you can't get your opponent to a KO percent very fast.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc's comboing ability is significantly worse than that of Mario. This is coming from someone who uses both characters a fair amount, and I can tell you right now that Doc is forced into up air chains far sooner than his less-educated counterpart. His up tilt knocks the opponent back too far to reliably chain into a second up tilt, his down throw only combos into up tilt up to rather low percents (I can't remember exactly as i don't pay that much attention to the percent meter, but i know it isn't that high) and this makes it significantly harder for a Doc player to rack up serious damage. However, he does have that insane kill move in his down special and has a far easier time scoring the KOs (and ending combos due to his up special's mechanics), so overall he only a tiny bit below where I would put him (I'd put him in the same tier as Peach if it was my choice), but him being a long way below Mario is the right way to go with Doc.

Coming from someone who mains and has previously mained both characters, both of which since their very first appearance, that's not true. Doctor M's combo ability is not that much worse than Mario's, and up tilt strings are still very possible. Dr. Mario's combos come mainly from down tilt, not down throw, unless you're trying to read an air dodge or something. Dr. Mario not racking up damage well is very untrue. All of Dr. Mario's attacks deal 1.12 times more damage than that of Mario. The main problem is that no one is playing Dr. Mario the way he should be played, a DEFENSIVE version of Mario. People assume that because something of his is different than Mario's, it's automatically bad. I'd say Doc is a solid C-Tier character.

 

[Zionaze]

Thats exactly why hes considered "low tier".
If no ones playing him right then no ones gunna win with him.The thing about high tiers is that they can essentially be played with any kind if style, thus there are more people with variety who do top with him. If you believe docs a solid C then go prove to the world his untapped potential.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Hey, what's up? Unsafe recovery and bad recovery are one in the same if the opponent knows how to punish it. Your ability to get back on stage means nothing if you leave yourself vulnerable while doing so.

What? Any character in the game can get their recovery punished. Literally everyone. So there is a thick line between unsafe and distance. Name one character on the roster that cannot be meteor smashed by another character. This proves distance and unsafe recovery are not similar. At the end of the day no characters recovery is safe. It all comes down to how good the player is going about preventing being meteor smashed.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What? Any character in the game can get their recovery punished. Literally everyone. So there is a thick line between unsafe and distance. Name one character on the roster that cannot be meteor smashed by another character. This proves distance and unsafe recovery are not simalar.

You are going to have a hell of a harder time spiking someone like Zelda than someone like Mac. It makes a huge difference. Even if they can be spiked, it's damn sure not going to be easy.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

You are going to have a hell of a harder time spiking someone like Zelda than someone like Mac. It makes a huge difference. Even if they can be spiked, it's damn sure not going to be easy.

That is true. Very very true.

 

[Kaladin]

What? Any character in the game can get their recovery punished. Literally everyone. So there is a thick line between unsafe and distance. Name one character on the roster that cannot be meteor smashed by another character. This proves distance and unsafe recovery are not similar. At the end of the day no characters recovery is safe. It all comes down to how good the player is going about preventing being meteor smashed.

Pikachu *can* be spiked, but if it's anything more than a day 3 pika, he never will be.

 

[MarioMeteor]

That is true. Very very true.

Yes, it is.

Thats exactly why hes considered "low tier".
If no ones playing him right then no ones gunna win with him.The thing about high tiers is that they can essentially be played with any kind if style, thus there are more people with variety who do top with him. If you believe docs a solid C then go prove to the world his untapped potential.

Not necessarily true. Sheik, Luigi, and Rosalina are the only top tiers that require actual skill.