Japanese Tier List by SHI-G March '15 (Version 1.0.2)

[Zionaze]

I mean that those top tiers can be played with a variety of playstyles and that there really isnt a "wrong" way to play them

 

[Marigi174]

Coming from someone who mains and has previously mained both characters, both of which since their very first appearance, that's not true. Doctor M's combo ability is not that much worse than Mario's, and up tilt strings are still very possible. Dr. Mario's combos come mainly from down tilt, not down throw, unless you're trying to read an air dodge or something. Dr. Mario not racking up damage well is very untrue. All of Dr. Mario's attacks deal 1.12 times more damage than that of Mario. The main problem is that no one is playing Dr. Mario the way he should be played, a DEFENSIVE version of Mario. People assume that because something of his is different than Mario's, it's automatically bad. I'd say Doc is a solid C-Tier character.

I know that most of his combos come from down tilt. However, it does literally the same thing as Mario with down tilt combos and leads into the same length of up tilt string before being forced to read movements with up air strings. That is the problem - his up tilt. Doc's comboing ability doesn't come down to his up air strings being hard - on the contrary. It all comes down to his up tilt that gives him a harder time scoring high levels of guaranteed damage. The worse down throw is just the icing on the cake, as it means that Doc has a harder time comboing out of shield/airdodge/roll/spot-dodge punishes. He is only a little below where he should be (I used to main him and I still have him as one of my primary backups - with my Doc being far more fearsome than my Mario - so this is coming from my own experience), and a lot of disagreements I see regarding any tier list is bias towards mains; this has happened with characters like Charizard, Mii Gunner and Lucina (hell I'm biased towards the last two and feel that they should both be above where they are - but I know a lot of that is down to personal bias), and when it comes to Doc there is no exception.

Not necessarily true. Sheik, Luigi, and Rosalina are the only top tiers that require actual skill.

I lol'd when I saw you say that Shiek requires skill. I have only picked Shiek up twice and she is already a force to be reckoned with - if that says that you need to have skill to play her, then there is a big issue with the perception. Not trying to flame/make fun of you; just pointing that out.

 

[Zionaze]

Shiek is the only character that requires you to "know" the combos. the execution is easy.
Almost every good sheik plays the same

 

[MarioMeteor]

I know that most of his combos come from down tilt. However, it does literally the same thing as Mario with down tilt combos and leads into the same length of up tilt string before being forced to read movements with up air strings. That is the problem - his up tilt. Doc's comboing ability doesn't come down to his up air strings being hard - on the contrary. It all comes down to his up tilt that gives him a harder time scoring high levels of guaranteed damage. The worse down throw is just the icing on the cake, as it means that Doc has a harder time comboing out of shield/airdodge/roll/spot-dodge punishes. He is only a little below where he should be (I used to main him and I still have him as one of my primary backups - with my Doc being far more fearsome than my Mario - so this is coming from my own experience), and a lot of disagreements I see regarding any tier list is bias towards mains; this has happened with characters like Charizard, Mii Gunner and Lucina (hell I'm biased towards the last two and feel that they should both be above where they are - but I know a lot of that is down to personal bias), and when it comes to Doc there is no exception.

I lol'd when I saw you say that Shiek requires skill. I have only picked Shiek up twice and she is already a force to be reckoned with - if that says that you need to have skill to play her, then there is a big issue with the perception. Not trying to flame/make fun of you; just pointing that out.

You see, what you don't get is Dr. Mario is not a fast, combo-heavy character like Mario. If you keep comparing him to Mario, he's obviously going to seem inferior. Dr. Mario doesn't rely on combos to rack up percent Mario because he hits harder and deals more damage than Mario does. The angle down throw sends opponents in makes some follow-ups guaranteed at lower percents and makes it good for reading air dodges at higher percents.
I laughed when you misspelled "Sheik" twice. As disgusting as she is, Sheik is a light character that has trouble killing. That combination alone takes skill to be able to work around. Your first mistake was judging a character that you've only played twice.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Sheik is an easy character to play, all of her combos are simple, and all of her moves are safe. She also can't be edge-guarded because she was one of the best recoverys in the game.

I used to main Sheik, btw.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Sheik is an easy character to play, all of her combos are simple, and all of her moves are safe. She also can't be edge-guarded because she was one of the best recoverys in the game.

I used to main Sheik, btw.

Good doesn't necessarily denote "easy." I direct you to Melee's top tiers for example. Sure, they're generally "easier" to win with, but only provided you take the time to learn how to use them, and even then they have their poor matchups (except and lololol).
If you want an example of a top tier character who is easy to use, I direct you to none other than , who has a much easier time killing than Sheik and is arguably just as good (if not better) at setting up combos and racking up %. If Sheik is so easy, then why can't I just pick him up and become the next Mew2King?

 

[Zionaze]

You see, what you don't get is Dr. Mario is not a fast, combo-heavy character like Mario. If you keep comparing him to Mario, he's obviously going to seem inferior. Dr. Mario doesn't rely on combos to rack up percent Mario because he hits harder and deals more damage than Mario does. The angle down throw sends opponents in makes some follow-ups guaranteed at lower percents and makes it good for reading air dodges at higher percents.
I laughed when you misspelled "Sheik" twice. As disgusting as she is, Sheik is a light character that has trouble killing. That combination alone takes skill to be able to work around. Your first mistake was judging a character that you've only played twice.

The thing about doc is that he "is" inferior. What doc lacks is what is needed to be able to compete against the nimble bunch. Wth does spelling errors have to do with anything. And Sheik really doesn't require as much "reads" compared to the rest of the cast. Technically every character has trouble killing too. Docs only reliable and quick kill move is B-air only

 

[Zionaze]

Its really just the options you need to know for someone to become a good sheik.
Mr.R's sheik is considered the best because he makes the best options in that particular situation.

I guess in a way thats skill :v
But its kind of different compared to Peach "skill" you kno wat I men :v
*Sorry dooble post ;.;*

 

[MarioMeteor]

And Sheik really doesn't require as much "reads" compared to the rest of the cast.

If she wants to actually kill somebody, then yes, she does. Rage is Sheik's only other saving grace.

Technically every character has trouble killing too. Docs only reliable and quick kill move is B-air only

That's it, I'm done. You officially have no
idea what you're talking about. I wasn't even talking to you.

 

[Zionaze]

Blawrgh hf :v

 

[MarioMeteor]

Blawrgh hf :v

Uhhhh...yeah.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Technically every character has trouble killing too. Docs only reliable and quick kill move is B-air only

That's it, I'm done. You officially have no
idea what you're talking about. I wasn't even talking to you.

What? You didn't know that KOs take forever in Sm4sh as opposed to Melee?

Personally, I think you should just stop whining about Dr. Mario's current placement and instead do something about it and compete so he can get a decent placement.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Good doesn't necessarily denote "easy." I direct you to Melee's top tiers for example. Sure, they're generally "easier" to win with, but only provided you take the time to learn how to use them, and even then they have their poor matchups (except and lololol).
If you want an example of a top tier character who is easy to use, I direct you to none other than , who has a much easier time killing than Sheik and is arguably just as good (if not better) at setting up combos and racking up %. If Sheik is so easy, then why can't I just pick him up and become the next Mew2King?

No, she is legit easy to play. I said she was good, but she is probably the easiest top tier right now.

 

[Kaladin]

No, she is legit easy to play. I said she was good, but she is probably the easiest top tier right now.

Sure, you can ez bake a zamus with your paralizer into grab combos, but if you wanna be good, you need to get mixtospaced nairs etc down. Not easy.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Sure, you can ez bake a zamus with your paralizer into grab combos, but if you wanna be good, you need to get mixtospaced nairs etc down. Not easy.

I was talking about Sheik,

 

[MarioMeteor]

What? You didn't know that KOs take forever in Sm4sh as opposed to Melee?

Personally, I think you should just stop whining about Dr. Mario's current placement and instead do something about it and compete so he can get a decent placement.

I wasn't whining until you decided to stretch this out. I do know that stocks in Smash 4 lasting longer than in Melee, but I'd rather not put "Smash 4" and "Melee" in the same sentence, because you know what happens. Also, I don't know if you know this, but the Smash scene in the Big Easy is nonexistent. It's not like I trust this tier list or anything anyway, it's outdated as ****.

 

[Lysergic]

I made this in 2002 after I got the game. I was like ten I think.

S

A

B

C

lol...

 

[MarioMeteor]

I made this in 2002 after I got the game. I was like ten I think.

S

Best list ever, 11/10, you win.

 

[Marigi174]

You see, what you don't get is Dr. Mario is not a fast, combo-heavy character like Mario. If you keep comparing him to Mario, he's obviously going to seem inferior. Dr. Mario doesn't rely on combos to rack up percent Mario because he hits harder and deals more damage than Mario does. The angle down throw sends opponents in makes some follow-ups guaranteed at lower percents and makes it good for reading air dodges at higher percents.
I laughed when you misspelled "Sheik" twice. As disgusting as she is, Sheik is a light character that has trouble killing. That combination alone takes skill to be able to work around. Your first mistake was judging a character that you've only played twice.

I know that Doc is more defensively inclined lol, but his moveset means that he is being forced into being combo heavy if he wants go get any stocks within the time limit. TBH, Mario is a fairly good comparison to Doc, so saying that it is a bad comparison is just plain wrong because, at their core, they play rather similarly to one another, except with Doc having a slight defensive twist to him and a very different method of recovery. However, as easy as it is to hang back spamming pills, you aren't going to be racking up very much v.s. a competent player, and this means that you are going to need to be up close far more than you would if you had heaps of very good projectiles like those of characters such as Samus or Megaman. As good a tool as the pellets are, you won't be getting very far if you don't combo, and the fact that you are stating that you are needing read air dodges to combo above ~45% shows that you aren't going to have an easy time scoring heavy damage as you are lacking in perfect combos beyond those at very low percents. I'm not going to make comments on his low speed beyond saying that it makes it much harder for Doc to get into position to even start racking up any damage. Finally, I direct you towards Docs situational, unreliable and overall poor recovery method. In order to recover from far out, Doc needs to double jump, immediately mash down B (as it is so dependent on momentum to gain any real height) for an unreliable height gain, fall to where he can sweetspot the ledge (because using it early leaves you completely vulnerable) and use his up special which is inferior when compared to Mario's from a recovery standpoint. Not only is this recovery easy to gimp due to the high end lag of the Doctor Tornado, but it is also harder to reach a point where you can sweetspot and harder to get any knockback off of an up special punish due to the weird hitbox which is only present at the start and end of the move. This recovery is pretty crippling on its own, but when combined with his hard comboing ability making it difficult to rack up damage v.s. better players, difficulty in approaching and the nonexistent knock back of the pellets and the lack of a 'cape hover' make Doc in roughly the right place (however I agree with you when you say that he is too low - although I feel that he isn't that far off of where he should have been pre-patch). I don't want to drag this on for too much longer either, so this will be my very last response to the discussion topic (promise provided I don't forget about the promise XD).

Now onto Sheik. Firstly, what put me off for the spelling was the exception to the rule "I before E except after C" (i often make that mistake with wierd weird too) XD. Secondly, how is being able to win by just doing [side tilt, side tilt, side tilt, side tilt, side tilt...] up to high percents hard XD. I may have only played Shiek in two play sessions (i.e. series of games without changing character), but when you compare her to the rest of the cast she is solidly the second easiest to pick up and play in the space of a few matches (only behind Mario) due to her high speed, high fluidity, easy time comboing, ability to chain side tilts up to high percents and having very easy follow-ups (namely side tilt escape point-->FAir, which needs roughly the same ability to read as (Doctor) Mario's up air chains). Hell - if you are easier to play than Diddy (literally the only challenge to playing Diddy Kong is knowing how to not kill yourself and not forgetting to charge the rocketbarrel) then you can safely say that the character is easy to play.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Pikachu *can* be spiked, but if it's anything more than a day 3 pika, he never will be.

Exactly. Its all about how good your opponent is or how good you are.

 

[Snackss]

If you want an example of a top tier character who is easy to use, I direct you to none other than , who has a much easier time killing than Sheik and is arguably just as good (if not better) at setting up combos and racking up %. If Sheik is so easy, then why can't I just pick him up and become the next Mew2King?

Zero Suit is used less than Sheik, and specifically because she's harder to learn and yet doesn't have better matchups. Floatier jump, needs better spacing, punishable grab. Sheik being safe for minimal effort is a huge part of why she's so high up, Zero Suit having better KO options doesn't come even close to that even though she also has good frame data. I don't know what kind of top player is going to tell you that Zero Suit is easier to use than Sheik, and the number of competitive players using Sheik compared to Zero Suit is pretty telling.

And that last sentence doesn't make sense because well, it just doesn't make sense. Playing a good character doesn't make you good at the game nor guarantee success even if you're playing a game where a character is legitimately broken, especially because there are other players who are already better than you using the same character. Nor is Mew2king good because he plays Sheik? I don't know what you're even trying to say here, it makes no sense. Sheik is easy to play, l'm not really sure how you can argue otherwise. Her frame data is ridiculous, her KO options are safe, her recovery is nearly ungimpable. If Sheik is not easy to play, then what could possibly constitute a character who is, or what would a character who is hard to play be?

 

[Ze Diglett]

And that last sentence doesn't make sense because well, it just doesn't make sense. Playing a good character doesn't make you good at the game nor guarantee success even if you're playing a game where a character is legitimately broken, especially because there are other players who are already better than you using the same character. Nor is Mew2king good because he plays Sheik? I don't know what you're even trying to say here, it makes no sense. Sheik is easy to play, l'm not really sure how you can argue otherwise. Her frame data is ridiculous, her KO options are safe, her recovery is nearly ungimpable. If Sheik is not easy to play, then what could possibly constitute a character who is, or what would a character who is hard to play be?

That's not literally what I meant, what I meant was closer to "Why can't I just pick up Sheik and wreck **** if she's as easy as people say he is?" Because I've certainly tried (with the results being rather contrarian to the success I find when I tried picking up and playing someone like Ness, notably enough), and I hardly consider myself to be much of a beginner at this game.

 

[Snackss]

That's not too hard to answer, though. Because the game isn't a broken piece of junk, despite all the weird balance decisions and the Unsolved Murder of Falco Lombardi. But Sheik has no bad matchups, so depending on who you play, you probably can pick up Sheik and instantly get better results. But you're not going to win anything because you still need to be actually good to win.

 

[Meek_]

I feel like lots of players form and give opinions on tiers way before they're even relevant to them. if you aren't a technically skilled player these lists shouldn't make much sense to you

eg. "but x character rules, you just gotta know how to use them" or "Zero bodied everyone on for glory with Marth so he's too low", etc

 

[MarioMeteor]

No, she is legit easy to play. I said she was good, but she is probably the easiest top tier right now.

Sonic and Diddy beg to differ.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Pikachu *can* be spiked, but if it's anything more than a day 3 pika, he never will be.

Exactly. Its all about how good your opponent is or how good you are.

Tiers still assume that the players are both at the point where they can use their characters to the fullest potential in a tournament. A tourney-skilled Pikachu is actually capable of mixing up his recovery and getting back on the stage before you even have a chance to try and spike him

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Sonic and Diddy beg to differ.

No they don't lol. Sonic is easy to play but is definitely harder to master, same with Diddy. Sheik is easy everything.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Tiers still assume that the players are both at the point where they can use their characters to the fullest potential in a tournament. A tourney-skilled Pikachu is actually capable of mixing up his recovery and getting back on the stage before you even have a chance to try and spike him

But the crazy thing is, one time I was playing as Capt Falcon and I Nair + short hop as soon as Pikachu grabbed the ledge and he went flying. I have no idea what happened but I am trying to master this technique out. Try it. Just Neutral air someone when they grab the ledge and short hop at the same time with falcon. Its similar to down tilting someone on the ledge.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

But the crazy thing is, one time I was playing as Capt Falcon and I Nair + short hop as soon as Pikachu grabbed the ledge and he went flying. I have no idea what happened but I am trying to master this technique out. Try it. Just Neutral air someone when they grab the ledge and short hop at the same time with falcon. Its similar to down tilting someone on the ledge.

There's a certain mechanic where you can get hit just as you're automatically snapping to the ledge. I'll search for a link, but even then it's nothing new and it's not guaranteed.

 

[Ze Diglett]

There's a certain mechanic where you can get hit just as you're automatically snapping to the ledge. I'll search for a link, but even then it's nothing new and it's not guaranteed.

This replay my friend got shows just that principle in action with Falcon's Up-Tilt. (Featuring realistic FG Gold Falcon Up-taunt spam action!)

 

[Legato]

Sheik is easy to perform well with, but if you play against someone who has great tech skill with a harder to learn character like Zamus, then Sheik requires equal amounts of tech skill to perform well against them. Sheik is a spacing tramp, which is deceptively easy at early-meta play (at least it seems to be the case as the meta develops). Characters like Fox, Falcon, Zamus can really mess with this spacing and force Sheik to require way more skill than before.

In summary: Sheik is easier to play well at lower levels of play. At top levels of play, Sheik requires about as much MU knowledge and tech skill as any other imo. With exception maybe to Fox and Pika But I am heavily biased in those matters with a severely unfounded opinion.

 

[Cipherbrand]

In the words of Etika;

"Lucario. In high C tier...he's basically the God of this game when he gets to, like, 100%."

Please, explain.

 

[Zerp]

Literally every character is hard to play at a high level, there's a reason it's called high-level play. You can't actually win any match with "no-skill" at a high level, you have to outplay your opponent, it's that simple. No character is some easy win button, you have to actually use your head and react in this game to win. You can't actually "master" a character without being a "master" yourself, simply put.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Literally every character is hard to play at a high level, there's a reason it's called high-level play. You can't actually win any match with "no-skill" at a high level, you have to outplay your opponent, it's that simple. No character is some easy win button, you have to actually use your head and react in this game to win. You can't actually "master" a character without being a "master" yourself, simply put.

Hey, I agree. But that's easier said then done. It takes an insane amount of practice.

 

[GummyBlade]

Why is Robin so low ROBIN is my BEST main

OK i Japanese people have different Ranks than US

WOW cool list

Diddy at top WOW

 

[Marigi174]

Sorry if this counts as minimodding. It just needs to be said, and its better that it's said sooner rather than later.

@ GummyBlade there is an edit button for a reason. Instead of quadruple posting, try using it. It will make your experience on the forums significantly easier and it will also result in you not getting warned/banned for spam. Other than that, welcome to Smashboards!

 

[GummyBlade]

wow so cool

Hmm wow japan

 

[punkonjunk]

This is very interesting. I'm very excited to see how meta and skill start to converge globally with much more global play in FG to spread new tech around fast...er.
I'm also very interested to see how these effect balance patches and the forward game, and how things change when nintendo abandons it.
I enjoy smash 4 as much as I enjoy melee, maybe more because I feel like the larger cast will lend itself to much, much greater metagame and more fun matchups in the end, and a lot less cut-and-dry matchups and counterpicks.... especially if customs manage to take foot competitively. (I'm not holding my breath.)

Not to mention, I love a lot more characters... although what they've done to marth is pretty sad.

I never liked counter-strike. if I wanted to ambush opponents in a comfortable position, I'm an asshole and I get votekicked. I find a way to play that I like, and folks crawl up my ass about it, because it's not the "right way."
On the other hand, we have team fortress 2. If you want to ambush folks, do it. Pyro, backburner, corners and creepin' as best you can, or spy and backstab until the ends of the earth.

I love that dynamic of balanced overpowered insanity, with clear directives and a stylistic direction that takes things towards absurd or intentional obnoxious behavior.

Smash gets that, too. I think smash 4 really nailed that with some really excellent characters, with a huge spread of totally different playstyles - from DHD's ridiculous projectile party, sheik and DDK's highly aggressive combo based attacks, and ryu's imitation of his original game.

dudes I like are pretty low tier, but I'm having a ton of time working on new ideas with 'em. A lot more fun then I ever had trying out new characters in melee or brawl, too.

TL:DR sm4sh rocks, excited to see how everything plays out.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

I don't think luigi is high enough in the list. Luigi in many match ups has a straight up advantage, and in those matchups opponents can't do much but get walled out. In many other matchups he's just so safe all the time (because he can just spam fireballs) and he can get in with a really good grab range. I just think he's easily better than everyone else above him in B tier, and he's better than everyone in mid and low High tier.

 

[Snatcher_Boss02]

Why is Robin so low ROBIN is my BEST main

OK i Japanese people have different Ranks than US

WOW cool list

Diddy at top WOW

Its because people forget that Robin can spike with his Elwind. Pit is the only character I know that can get back on the stage when spiked with Elwind at a LOW percentage.