Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[PokemonMasterIRL]

That is neat.

In my testing I noticed that Uptilt tends to clank with people attacks a lot too, it seems to have its hitbox stay out for a while.

 

[Steeler]

i bet you can avoid grabs with it too, at least from the shorter characters

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i bet you can avoid grabs with it too, at least from the shorter characters

You can avoid Dedede's grab--I imagine you can avoid just about any grab with good timing.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

you Can Avoid Dedede's Grab--i Imagine You Can Avoid Just About Any Grab With Good Timing.

Hhhhmmmmmmm

This seems semi big?

 

[Steeler]

Hhhhmmmmmmm

This seems semi big?

i don't think so, because most grabs have less cooldown than ivy utilt. so they can just react and grab/hit you before you can do anything.

 

[T-block]

I must be missing something... what's wrong with spotdodging x.x

It was cool on the ledge because u-tilt covered jump options as well, but even if we can dodge grabs with it why not just spotdodge and get less cooldown.

 

[Steeler]

I must be missing something... what's wrong with spotdodging x.x

It was cool on the ledge because u-tilt covered jump options as well, but even if we can dodge grabs with it why not just spotdodge and get less cooldown.

this, mostly

if you can hit with the utilt then it's cool but i don't think you can reliably do that if they space the grab well

on that topic, some of ivy's hitbubbles will be up today. i been dragging my feet on this, but it's because i'm encountering a glitch where if i try to apply the hitbubble graphic to ivy's vine attacks, the game freezes up. :\ so no bair/fair/etc for now

but uair ***** the **** out of the WORLDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I want to see upsmash hitbubbles.

I am curious if it gets bigger when you charger it.

 

[T-block]

Looking forward to it Steeler. I guess there's no way to get the Vine Whip sweetspot then? That's one I really wanna see.

 

[deepseadiva]

on that topic, some of ivy's hitbubbles will be up today.

but uair ***** the **** out of the WORLDDDDDDDDDDDD

Yaaay.

And even though I never told anyone, I told you about uair!

 

[CoonTail]

That is neat.

In my testing I noticed that U-tilt tends to clank with people attacks a lot too, it seems to have its hit-box stay out for a while.

Yea this deff happens a lot it seems to mainly happen when the attack comes into contact with the beginning of the U-tilt as Ivy is pushing up off the ground.....so opening frames of U-tilt will clank with a lot Ive managed to clank with snake's god tilts a few times when I timed it properly. So its starting to look like proper use of Squirtle's jab and Ivy's U-tilt can clink snake's god tilts and potentially not take the absurd 21%.

 

[Buuda]

Steeler, what ever happened to hit bubbles? lol.
Reliable combos.... since Ivysaur is so slow, are there any? lol. I mean, I know a few, but nothing too remarkable. I mean, of course there are decent throw follow-ups, and b-air follow-ups, n-air "combos" and that kind of janky business, but is anyone doing anything super, super neat? Discuss. We need to be sharing more of this kind of stuff, lol. Unless I missed a bunch of it earlier in the thread. Personally, I feel like my Ivysaur moves and plays very... robotically? Like, I feel VERY VERY fluid as Squirtle and pretty fluid as Charizard as well. Ivysaur just seems choppy to me. Am I the only person who feels this way?

Edit- I think I just **** myself and exploded in my pants at the same time, for those of you who haven't seen this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inwQTscIzfU

Question about this. I know the video is old, but the content seems either mostly or reliable still. Right me if I'm wrong and be specific? I'm not huge on Ivy, as some of you already know, so I'll be more than happy to step down and say I only play him to the bare minimum, and only because I have to, and mine therefore sucks in comparison to where it should be.

 

[Steeler]

the hitbubbles are up for everything that doesn't involve ivy's vines, since my wii was freezing when i'd try it. it's just that the thread hasn't had a response in a while so it's not listed unless you change your settings.

 

[Zigsta]

Ivysaur used to be really choppy movement wise to me as well, so I started switching him out immediately for like 2 months worth of matches. Then for some reason when I started using him again, he was much better, haha.

As far as "combos" go, nair to utilt is something I use a good bit.

I also started using roll to dtilt after watching Reflex's Ivysaur. It's super-effective.

 

[Buuda]

Hmm. I gotta get out into some high grass and train my Ivysaur (play him moar at the local bi-weekly tourney I help organize here in WI). But yeah, is the stuff in that video I posted still viable?

 

[Zigsta]

Everything you see in that video is viable, but bear in mind that what you watched is a combo video, meaning there's not a whole lot of air dodging and shielding.

So bottom line, know that these follow-ups are possible, but don't always try to go for them.

 

[Buuda]

Alright, cool cool. Must work on Ivy.

 

[humble]

I invoke my necro powers to bring back ivy tact~

I've found on Battlefield (a good neutral for ivy) almost everyone I play tends to drop through the platform first thing, so I've made it a habit to punish their habit (lol) and drop through razor leaf right at the start.

Battlefield is the best PT neutral stage for playing on, but SV is almost as good and allows you to perform the zero switch, so you can switch on your weak pokemon (like ivysaur for most) without taking the punishment.

Ivy tends to approach best backwards, with nair->utilt, nair->bullet seed, or bair as just good spacing.

At the end of bullet seeds, its sometimes worth mixing it up and using ftilt to pressure their landing.

Rather then going for a spike, often its better to go for an instant tether- if they won't make it, just stay on the vine, if they might, release and attack. Instant tether is also useful because it turns you around, so you pop up, hog the ledge, and are set to use bair, your best gimping tool.

Ivy actually has a really great gimp game offstage, provided they don't turn the tables on you. Walling with bairs onstage results in mere chip damage, but offstage it can mean a stock. Use vinewhips to the ledge to regain your jump and continue to wall them.

 

[Steeler]

PT has no best neutral. it totally depends on the matchup and what you plan to do. battlefield kind of ***** charizard in some matchups, for instance.

 

[T-block]

If I had to name a best neutral, I'd say Smashville.

But yeah, I can think of situations where BF, FD, SV could all be considered our "best" neutral.

 

[humble]

Yay people posted in the thread. (Necro success!)

I personally prefer Battlefield for the platforms, its good for mixing things up and makes it more difficult on the opponent (depending on the opponent).

What would be the best for each individual pokemon though?

 

[deepseadiva]

This is the only thread I'm subscribed to in the PT board.

 

[humble]

This is the only thread I'm subscribed to in the PT board.

Because you love ivysaur that much. Bravo sir, Bravo.

*slow clap*

 

[CoonTail]

I have to agree to an extent here guys with humble.....I find battlefield really good for PT in alot of cases and (insert controversial statement here) mainly in the marth matchup. Ugh yes I said it but is only because of the platforms giving aid against marth grab horror stories against PT. With squirtle you can camp the top platform forcing him to use U-air to come after you, leaving opportunities for you to punish.

Ivy can manage the platforms too so that its not a matter of marth f-throw -> f-air and now Ivy is fighting to stay on stage. Zard tho will struggle but in my region Minty is infamous for the 0-50%er on zard so platforms help you get around alot of flat ground nonsense.

So I do know that battlefield is not PT's BEST neutral but it sure can be a great one if abused properly

 

[T-block]

Yeah the thing is, for PT the "best" stage is a lot more matchup dependent than with most characters. I love BF and Lylat as Squirtle, but dislike them as Charizard... so as the matchup changes from one that calls for Squirtle to one that calls for Charizard, your best stage choice is gonna change. Squirtle and Ivysaur are definitely very sexy with BF's platforms though. Charizard isn't useless on BF, but against characters like Marth and MK those platforms make life really difficult.

That's why I called Smashville our "best" neutral... the ability to Baton Pass benefits PT as a whole, and not just individual pokemon, which help a lot in some matchups.

 

[humble]

What do you guys think Ivysaurs worst matchups are and why?

I've been exploring uses for instant tether, do you guys have some?

Oh, and I've found that people rarely expect vine whip as an attack. I actually once managed to catch someone when they were coming down from high and I sprinted away, then SHed a wavebounce vinewhip sweetspot KO.

When do you use ivy's jab? Occaisonally I accidentally use it, so I just use the first hit, then crouch cancel it into a dtilt.

 

[Vermy]

Ivy's worst matchups are Marth, MK, ICs.

Marth: Fair.
MK: Everything.
ICs: Ivy is apparently very easy to CG and even easier to zone.

Cbf elaborating.

I don't use Jab unless it's accidentally. Dtilt is always a better option. 4 frames iirc.

Edit:

I KO'd a Toon Link on Brinstar at 35% Doubles at Sydney's major a few months back with sweet spot vine whip. Felt sexy.

 

[Zigsta]

No character is easy to CG as ICs--it's just personal preference.

 

[T-block]

Yeah it's just whether they bother to learn the timing for your specific weight/weight class. I'm pretty sure the frame windows don't get any smaller or anything.

Agreeing with Vermy about worst matchups being Marth/MK, and about d-tilt. Ivy's jab is terrible and hits on frame 7. D-tilt hits on frame 4. I can't really think of a situation where I'd use jab over d-tilt... maybe edgeguarding Fox or something lol

 

[humble]

Which of Ivy's moves are safe on shield?

Should Ivy be on the defensive, aggressive, or try to zone?

When should Ivy use Dsmash?

What situations should dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash be used in, respectively?

When someone is on the ledge to gimp you, I know you are supposed to save your jump and then scrape them off, but if you aren't backwards (bair being your optimal move) should you use nair forwards, fair, uair, or dair to get them off? uair and dair have a ton of endlag and you might die for using them, but on the other hand if you land it they might die, fair has alot of endlag also but has a nice above and below hitbox so it might work to cover more of their options, nair lasts longer and is multihitting but on the otherhand also doesn't have as much knockback.

 

[MaTA]

Ivy vs IC isn't as bad... yeah he is super easy to chain grab but a lot of his moves beat theirs. Razor leafs **** ice blocks and if they get hit you can usually grab and bthrow to separate. Neutral a is good to keep them at bay when they are off the edge. you just have to space the hell out of them. but yeah MK is the worth....


when should you ivy downsmash? never ha the only time i really use it is when im glide tossing.

 

[humble]

ICs hasn't really been a problem for ivy for me, I mean aside of course from the omnipresent threat of their grabs, ivy seems like she actually has better tools for dealing with the ICs then most.

 

[Zigsta]

Ivysaur's dsmash is pretty good for using near the ledge when ICs are trying to recover.

Other than that, typh and I use it sometimes for mindgames.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur's dsmash is pretty good for using near the ledge when ICs are trying to recover.

Somebody's gonna have to explain this to me.

 

[Steeler]

i use jab sometimes if i pick up on a spotdodging habit and think that they would be quick enough to react to a typhdash.

 

[Magik0722]

Ice climbers is a hard counter to all 3 pokemon


Also the only reason you should use jab is because ivy makes dat ****ing face

 

[CoonTail]

Somebody's gonna have to explain this to me.

I'll see if I can dig up my replay luis but what you do luis is edge hog so the IC's up-b over the edge and the the D-smash hits popo as hes about to raise above the edge if timed properly which results in nana getting up from the edge( if the angle was correct for her to grab it) and Popo having no aid in recovering with the terrible single IC up-b

 

[humble]

Ivy's grab game is so sexy, I think we need to explore it more.

What follow-ups are best out of her throws? How good is her grab release options?

I nominate tackle for ivy's kill move of the day.

 

[Zigsta]

Somebody's gonna have to explain this to me.

I've been able to separate Nana almost every time I've used dsmash while waiting just by the ledge. Not sure exactly how, but it works, haha.

 

[CoonTail]

I've been able to separate Nana almost every time I've used dsmash while waiting just by the ledge. Not sure exactly how, but it works, haha.

lol im telling you luis the only application Ivy's D-smash has is on the IC's and I actually think it was stated in this thread a while ago LOL