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ITT KirbyKaze talks about stuff and doesn't really expect responses
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Velox
Smash Ace
lol @ falco's stage movement being quantized in discrete intervals of SHL, Falco doesn't see space the way we do, he only sees an interval of points he can bounce to..Cactuar said:
it's true though, good post Cactuar :D
roflLow tier in my board!?
I realized yesterday that playing fast is better than playing slow
also using shield to approach is good
TKD
Smash Lord
Hi, Kira..
CanISmash
Smash Lord
how do you go from normal shield to light shield w/o dropping? thanks.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
Hey Kirbykaze and any other sheik with input. How does sheik approach the gannon match up. I've heard that sheik want to go very agro in this match. What are some safe options/ scenarios to do so?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I just use short hop aerials to stuff Ganon's aerials if he's facing me.
If his back is turned and he's Bairing, I throw crap at him so he turns around, or I use a lot of crouch > WD back and move around a lot. Depending on how risky I feel, I may try to do an aerial over his Bair, since his Bair aims downwards and I have a higher short hop.
You can camp him if you want, just don't run out of space, get trapped at the edge and forced to roll into him. Personally I think Ganon is awful if you don't let him setup but others really like running defense against him so whatever. Whatever you do, don't camp on platforms. His Uair is really good and will **** you if you try to camp like that. Stay on the ground floor for the majority of the game.
If you do get trapped at the edge, chill in a poof stall and get onstage safely. Stand if he's spacing far away (and you're <100), ledgedash if you can, etc. Block his moves, wait until he spaces away, then wavedash down or slightly back out of shield. You may be pushed onto the edge a few times in this process, but that's okay. Relax. Whatever you do, do not panic. If he's determined to space close to you, ledgehop Fair him when you see an opportunity to do so. Your main chain to regain ground will be when he F-tilts your shield and then you WD forward. You can't punish it (read: continue to block unless he grabs after his F-tilt), but it will allow you to move closer to the middle and regain ground. Ganon actually has a fairly good ledgepressure game simply because he has high range, relatively safe moves, and strong KB.
Ducking in front of his shield after you autocancel a Fair is immune to shield grab. You have to be wary of Up+B OOS and Dair OOS but I've never seen a Ganon do either of those (at least frequently). You can react to Dair and block it fairly reasonably though, and Up+B doesn't really get him much unless you're at 100%+. If he whiffs a shield grab on your duck, grab him and end him.
If you suck at chain grabbing vs his slight DIs, just u-tilt him (ideally so both hits connect) and then do a big combo. Seriously, I see so many Sheiks lose this MU not because Ganon created openings but because they don't know how to CG, try it vs the awkward DIs, and then Ganon gets free stomp > CG / Fair > stock. If you can't do it, that's okay. Just be able to do it vs horizontal DI away (when they DI in front) and you'll be good.
======= unrelated to you =======
I think I may start referring to DI directions like how SRK and others refer to stick directions very soon because this is getting ridiculous. Away, slight away, etc. I could just say (assuming Sheik is facing right) DI:6 and you'd know I mean immediately and there would be no confusion. For Fox, where it doesn't make a difference because both sides are "away", I could say 4 or 6. And, again, it would be understandable immediately. Slight DI becomes 7 or 9, DI down and away becomes 3... so much easier.
If his back is turned and he's Bairing, I throw crap at him so he turns around, or I use a lot of crouch > WD back and move around a lot. Depending on how risky I feel, I may try to do an aerial over his Bair, since his Bair aims downwards and I have a higher short hop.
You can camp him if you want, just don't run out of space, get trapped at the edge and forced to roll into him. Personally I think Ganon is awful if you don't let him setup but others really like running defense against him so whatever. Whatever you do, don't camp on platforms. His Uair is really good and will **** you if you try to camp like that. Stay on the ground floor for the majority of the game.
If you do get trapped at the edge, chill in a poof stall and get onstage safely. Stand if he's spacing far away (and you're <100), ledgedash if you can, etc. Block his moves, wait until he spaces away, then wavedash down or slightly back out of shield. You may be pushed onto the edge a few times in this process, but that's okay. Relax. Whatever you do, do not panic. If he's determined to space close to you, ledgehop Fair him when you see an opportunity to do so. Your main chain to regain ground will be when he F-tilts your shield and then you WD forward. You can't punish it (read: continue to block unless he grabs after his F-tilt), but it will allow you to move closer to the middle and regain ground. Ganon actually has a fairly good ledgepressure game simply because he has high range, relatively safe moves, and strong KB.
Ducking in front of his shield after you autocancel a Fair is immune to shield grab. You have to be wary of Up+B OOS and Dair OOS but I've never seen a Ganon do either of those (at least frequently). You can react to Dair and block it fairly reasonably though, and Up+B doesn't really get him much unless you're at 100%+. If he whiffs a shield grab on your duck, grab him and end him.
If you suck at chain grabbing vs his slight DIs, just u-tilt him (ideally so both hits connect) and then do a big combo. Seriously, I see so many Sheiks lose this MU not because Ganon created openings but because they don't know how to CG, try it vs the awkward DIs, and then Ganon gets free stomp > CG / Fair > stock. If you can't do it, that's okay. Just be able to do it vs horizontal DI away (when they DI in front) and you'll be good.
======= unrelated to you =======
I think I may start referring to DI directions like how SRK and others refer to stick directions very soon because this is getting ridiculous. Away, slight away, etc. I could just say (assuming Sheik is facing right) DI:6 and you'd know I mean immediately and there would be no confusion. For Fox, where it doesn't make a difference because both sides are "away", I could say 4 or 6. And, again, it would be understandable immediately. Slight DI becomes 7 or 9, DI down and away becomes 3... so much easier.
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emEaa0wSirA
Any tips on approach and general outlines of how to edgeguard?
Any tips on approach and general outlines of how to edgeguard?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Don't willingly go on platforms vs Falcon. That's an easy way to autolose.
Approaching Falcon is just move forward > stop > see if he'll do something > move forward > stop > see if he'll do something. Only you do something if you think he'll do something at the, "see if he'll do something" step. You really just try to bait him into doing something, because Falcon really, really wants people to make the first move against him.
Unless you know his movement patterns, it's extremely risky to throw attacks into Falcon's zone because he's fast enough to punish whiffed moves and stuff that normally covers a lot of ground effectively (dash attack, boost grab) don't vs Falcon because of how ridiculously good his dash game is.
If he's camping platforms, try to use your SH to bait him. He might think you're coming up and start the Stomp (Falcon has to do everything early) but then when he's lagged from it you just DJ aerial and hit him. If he continues to camp, you can just land from the empty SH fairly safely.
It's hard to tell you how to edgeguard because you're not putting him offstage effectively. Hit him offstage when he's in the air. You keep Fairing when he's knocked over or whatever but then he just DIs hard into the ground and grabs the edge or whatever.
General stuff on your missed edgeguards:
1) If they're riding the wall, Fair sucks because they'll tech > Up+B you
2) Grab the edge MUCH faster so you can do your aerials sooner and hit him
3) Pay attention to his height and possible trajectories; sometimes you can just jump off and hit him
In general it looks like a lot of your edgeguards get messed with from level hazzards like Yoshi's Story platforms. Get more comfortable working around those. Like, consciously note that those platforms are there and therefore <stuff> doesn't work so you have to do <other stuff>. Also, you need to use your Bair more effectively when they're recovering high. Bair is ridiculously high range, easy to hit, consistently good, etc.
Approaching Falcon is just move forward > stop > see if he'll do something > move forward > stop > see if he'll do something. Only you do something if you think he'll do something at the, "see if he'll do something" step. You really just try to bait him into doing something, because Falcon really, really wants people to make the first move against him.
Unless you know his movement patterns, it's extremely risky to throw attacks into Falcon's zone because he's fast enough to punish whiffed moves and stuff that normally covers a lot of ground effectively (dash attack, boost grab) don't vs Falcon because of how ridiculously good his dash game is.
If he's camping platforms, try to use your SH to bait him. He might think you're coming up and start the Stomp (Falcon has to do everything early) but then when he's lagged from it you just DJ aerial and hit him. If he continues to camp, you can just land from the empty SH fairly safely.
It's hard to tell you how to edgeguard because you're not putting him offstage effectively. Hit him offstage when he's in the air. You keep Fairing when he's knocked over or whatever but then he just DIs hard into the ground and grabs the edge or whatever.
General stuff on your missed edgeguards:
1) If they're riding the wall, Fair sucks because they'll tech > Up+B you
2) Grab the edge MUCH faster so you can do your aerials sooner and hit him
3) Pay attention to his height and possible trajectories; sometimes you can just jump off and hit him
In general it looks like a lot of your edgeguards get messed with from level hazzards like Yoshi's Story platforms. Get more comfortable working around those. Like, consciously note that those platforms are there and therefore <stuff> doesn't work so you have to do <other stuff>. Also, you need to use your Bair more effectively when they're recovering high. Bair is ridiculously high range, easy to hit, consistently good, etc.
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
Thanks.
The falcon player mentioned to try to hit him with Fair at the peak of his Up+b if he's recovering high, and, like you said, aerial if you know the trajectories.
If he's recovering low, what's the best option if
a) I have the ledge
b) I don't have the ledge and he's getting a sweet spot
General play, am I doing anything right in this MU?
Props if you can guess who the falcon is.
The falcon player mentioned to try to hit him with Fair at the peak of his Up+b if he's recovering high, and, like you said, aerial if you know the trajectories.
If he's recovering low, what's the best option if
a) I have the ledge
b) I don't have the ledge and he's getting a sweet spot
General play, am I doing anything right in this MU?
Props if you can guess who the falcon is.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you have the ledge just do weak Bairs to push him away from the ledge and eventually do strong Bairs until he dies. Nair is also acceptable to hit him away from the stage but pay attention to where he's positioned. Last thing you need is him wall-tech-jumping it and coming back with some obscure Falcon recovery trick (probably airdodge).
You can do more if you have the edge; I do some really funny stuff sometimes because I like to combo people that lack their jump. But those are the things that usually work. That stuff will work in the vast majority of situations (80%+).
D-smash if you can't get the edge. Sometimes they'll tech-wall-jump into the 2nd or 3rd hit and then you just have to deal with that. Or do aerial needles (doesn't work on Yoshi's Story).
Things you're doing good? You seem to not get super **** combo'd to high hell, which is good. You seem fairly good at avoiding his important hits in onstage combat (except when you start jumping on platforms and stuff) which is also important.
I'm not sure who the Falcon is but it looks a little like Scar.
You can do more if you have the edge; I do some really funny stuff sometimes because I like to combo people that lack their jump. But those are the things that usually work. That stuff will work in the vast majority of situations (80%+).
D-smash if you can't get the edge. Sometimes they'll tech-wall-jump into the 2nd or 3rd hit and then you just have to deal with that. Or do aerial needles (doesn't work on Yoshi's Story).
Things you're doing good? You seem to not get super **** combo'd to high hell, which is good. You seem fairly good at avoiding his important hits in onstage combat (except when you start jumping on platforms and stuff) which is also important.
I'm not sure who the Falcon is but it looks a little like Scar.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Optimal punish is always Dair * 3-5 > U-smash
<3
I hope I can play well at Pound and show people that Sheik is like... a good character still. These ****ing space animals keep telling me she sucks.
<3
I hope I can play well at Pound and show people that Sheik is like... a good character still. These ****ing space animals keep telling me she sucks.
KK said everything good while I was writing this lol, hopefully some of this helps you
one thing to add is it seems like you're not following up very well. Like at 1:36 you bair him twice but don't do anything afterwards. Think of a hit-confirm in Street Fighter, you need to grab him afterwards (or dash attack/upsmash the missed tech at mid percents or run to where they will tech at higher percents and react). Right now you are a little overwhelmed because the other player is much faster than you, but looking for these types of things should help you get used to the speed.
at 2:11 you should've double jumped to cover the up B, im not 100% sure but just my initial instinct when i saw that part was you should've double jump bair'd
2:15 dont punish with grab at high percent it's harder to punish than a dtilt, if you thought he was scared of dash attack you could dsmash but usually when people are scared they'll do survival DI, and sheik has so many options they should never know what punish is coming. in fact continuing to watch you punish with grab a few more times at high percent
3:43 you could've ftilt/uptilt/jabbed. right after you punish wish dsmash, dash attack would've been better
3:56 the short hop after the bair made him up B early, if you had stayed on the stage it would've been an easy punish. going for the ledge at that spacing would've been hard for him and taken too long. getting better at this just takes experience though you just need to play better falcons for a bit
5:15 bad place to be, shielding wasn't necessarily a bad option but in that part of the stage it was, not a lot you can do to defend yourself and block options compared to if you were just standing there, once you put yourself in that position there was not a lot you could do, of course that falcon took advantage of it in the best way possible and got the option you tried to use to escape. In that situation I would trust my instincts and gtfo cause you (subconsciously) knew that you didn't like being there and tried to move.. i think the best thing would be to roll to the left though, you get put near the ledge but it's the hardest for him to attack and predict.
5:23 I like how you stay patient and dont go for a fullhop aerial or anything, i would've whiffed and taken 80 damage. altho u did get lucky on that fair on the top platform lol he should have moved down and taken control of the stage and pressured you by threatening upair, although there wasnt a lot of time to react and think of that solution lol
5:40 lol ftilt works?
also he's scared of your priority, notice how he stays just outside of your range but doesn't dare approach until he's absolutely sure, take advantage of this hesitation, fake like you're blocking a potential approach but then just go hit him
for edgeguarding you can always throw needles at the ledge to make him reset. more than likely he'll up B quickly and go way above the ledge, this is good as a mixup only though, i like to just dsmash in situation (b), if they tech i'll take the up B at lower percents
also when in doubt (this is just my preference) but I will always cover the option closest to the middle of the stage, cause i'd rather have them be stuck at the ledge and try to get up
in general your movement needs to be faster/smoother, this is hard to improve on but just takes time imo, don't stay in one place for too long, dont be in your shield too much. being fluid/smooth and moving quickly can help your gameplay a lot, makes you less predictable even if you feel that it is accomplishing the same thing as staying in one spot. this is something i learned two days ago lol
i was about to say that falcon was pretty good lol i was wondering who it was
one thing to add is it seems like you're not following up very well. Like at 1:36 you bair him twice but don't do anything afterwards. Think of a hit-confirm in Street Fighter, you need to grab him afterwards (or dash attack/upsmash the missed tech at mid percents or run to where they will tech at higher percents and react). Right now you are a little overwhelmed because the other player is much faster than you, but looking for these types of things should help you get used to the speed.
at 2:11 you should've double jumped to cover the up B, im not 100% sure but just my initial instinct when i saw that part was you should've double jump bair'd
2:15 dont punish with grab at high percent it's harder to punish than a dtilt, if you thought he was scared of dash attack you could dsmash but usually when people are scared they'll do survival DI, and sheik has so many options they should never know what punish is coming. in fact continuing to watch you punish with grab a few more times at high percent
3:43 you could've ftilt/uptilt/jabbed. right after you punish wish dsmash, dash attack would've been better
3:56 the short hop after the bair made him up B early, if you had stayed on the stage it would've been an easy punish. going for the ledge at that spacing would've been hard for him and taken too long. getting better at this just takes experience though you just need to play better falcons for a bit
5:15 bad place to be, shielding wasn't necessarily a bad option but in that part of the stage it was, not a lot you can do to defend yourself and block options compared to if you were just standing there, once you put yourself in that position there was not a lot you could do, of course that falcon took advantage of it in the best way possible and got the option you tried to use to escape. In that situation I would trust my instincts and gtfo cause you (subconsciously) knew that you didn't like being there and tried to move.. i think the best thing would be to roll to the left though, you get put near the ledge but it's the hardest for him to attack and predict.
5:23 I like how you stay patient and dont go for a fullhop aerial or anything, i would've whiffed and taken 80 damage. altho u did get lucky on that fair on the top platform lol he should have moved down and taken control of the stage and pressured you by threatening upair, although there wasnt a lot of time to react and think of that solution lol
5:40 lol ftilt works?
also he's scared of your priority, notice how he stays just outside of your range but doesn't dare approach until he's absolutely sure, take advantage of this hesitation, fake like you're blocking a potential approach but then just go hit him
for edgeguarding you can always throw needles at the ledge to make him reset. more than likely he'll up B quickly and go way above the ledge, this is good as a mixup only though, i like to just dsmash in situation (b), if they tech i'll take the up B at lower percents
also when in doubt (this is just my preference) but I will always cover the option closest to the middle of the stage, cause i'd rather have them be stuck at the ledge and try to get up
in general your movement needs to be faster/smoother, this is hard to improve on but just takes time imo, don't stay in one place for too long, dont be in your shield too much. being fluid/smooth and moving quickly can help your gameplay a lot, makes you less predictable even if you feel that it is accomplishing the same thing as staying in one spot. this is something i learned two days ago lol
i was about to say that falcon was pretty good lol i was wondering who it was
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Kira's combo game is so gay he's just like "lololol I'm Sheik I'm so broken F/U-tilt F/U-tilt F/U-tilt Fair lolol they don't DI away because if they do it becomes F/U-tilt dash attack F/U-tilt dash attack Fair or they go offstage when I tilt and I throw crap at them and then they die I'm so clever"
<3 <3 Kira <3 <3
I'm so glad to see you around again ^___^
<3 <3 Kira <3 <3
I'm so glad to see you around again ^___^
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
Thanks for the tips. I have alot more vids. Typically, he did 2 stock me. There were some games where he dominated me and a handful that I won.
I think the tough thing for me during the sets that were recorded was that I wasn't really thinking 2-3 steps ahead, hence my follow-ups were really terrible.
There were other nights where I played Scar and took down a decent amount of matches because I was really planning ahead. I think in the sets I will upload shortly, I was thinking too much in the moment.
I think the tough thing for me during the sets that were recorded was that I wasn't really thinking 2-3 steps ahead, hence my follow-ups were really terrible.
There were other nights where I played Scar and took down a decent amount of matches because I was really planning ahead. I think in the sets I will upload shortly, I was thinking too much in the moment.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Planning ahead is an invaluable skill.
tafo you are getting much better though. You seem to improve for no reason lol I don't even know the last time you went to a tourney.
Go win Pound
and if possible go to Genesis 2 so we can play and hate on all the foxes
Man if only sheik was that easy =P
Go win Pound
and if possible go to Genesis 2 so we can play and hate on all the foxes
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm gonna do my best <3
If I make it to Genesis too I think we should talk loudly about how we keep messing up tech skill and how Sheik is so hard to play at high level near the Fox players
If I make it to Genesis too I think we should talk loudly about how we keep messing up tech skill and how Sheik is so hard to play at high level near the Fox players
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
Where u at david? U at the venue yet?
TKD
Smash Lord
Not that I was very good, but I'm starting over.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Bleh.
Lost only to Fox players this tournament, which is very distressing for me. Pretty much the opposite of *Pound* 4 for me. I'm usually pretty confident vs. Fox :/
I think I really need to reevaluate how I'm doing a lot of this MU. I'm finding the hardest part of the MU is when they're just really consistent with punishes and don't mess anything up when they hit me. Movement is also really weird. I'm not sure what I need to do but... definitely needed to be better prepared next time.
I have to get a lot better at using her ground game.
Lost only to Fox players this tournament, which is very distressing for me. Pretty much the opposite of *Pound* 4 for me. I'm usually pretty confident vs. Fox :/
I think I really need to reevaluate how I'm doing a lot of this MU. I'm finding the hardest part of the MU is when they're just really consistent with punishes and don't mess anything up when they hit me. Movement is also really weird. I'm not sure what I need to do but... definitely needed to be better prepared next time.
I have to get a lot better at using her ground game.
Stevo
Smash Champion
what do you mean by movement is also really weird?
you'll gettum next time
you'll gettum next time
TKD
Smash Lord
/\ If Fox has position, he's all over the place, all the time. It's hard to keep track of.
u said this about sheik right???
cause i try to be aggressive n ppl say to play more gay n slow (its hard cause its hard for me to play gay),(n my tech chasing is crap)
i noticed top level sheiks SEEM aggressive but play rather safe, so is this more of what u meant by "playin fast"?
i can try to go halfsies......... fast/slow
also whenever i see u imma ask for sheik dittos n u cant deny me......... well u can but plz dont
yeah fast does not equal aggressive, everybody plays safe so that's a given
it's still good to wait sometimes but not as much as I was doing before
i don't mind dittos =)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
SHEIK PLAYERS:
k when you dash attack a space animal or falcon at like 50 on fd and they get launched above you (ie. they didn't DI)
RESIST THE URGE TO IMMEDIATELY F-TILT / U-TILT
instead SHFFL dair on them
it leads to better follows and will give you better death combos
it's much, much, much better
this is also true if you u-tilt a space animal or falcon around like 40%+ or so, i forget what percents
or if you u-smash them at a certain percent and they get launched
SHFFL uair also ***** (do the uair late if possible)
SHFFLs have much less cooldown than tilts and u-smash and ground moves in general so they are often (but not always) better for combos and lead to better stuff, especially on FD
kira - i lost to sw, cyrain, and remen
k when you dash attack a space animal or falcon at like 50 on fd and they get launched above you (ie. they didn't DI)
RESIST THE URGE TO IMMEDIATELY F-TILT / U-TILT
instead SHFFL dair on them
it leads to better follows and will give you better death combos
it's much, much, much better
this is also true if you u-tilt a space animal or falcon around like 40%+ or so, i forget what percents
or if you u-smash them at a certain percent and they get launched
SHFFL uair also ***** (do the uair late if possible)
SHFFLs have much less cooldown than tilts and u-smash and ground moves in general so they are often (but not always) better for combos and lead to better stuff, especially on FD
kira - i lost to sw, cyrain, and remen
TKD
Smash Lord
Great tip. So, in other words, SHFF dair and SHFF delayed uair have priority over tilts when both are an available follow-up. I've had a falling Fox's nair hit my leg during my utilt. It probably was the angle (utilt seems to extend a bit behind Sheik as opposed to directly upwards...maybe turning around beforehand helps), but I'm thinking that maybe uair out-prioritizes all of Fox's aerials from below? It may be viable if there was time to set up a shorthop. In most cases I see bair as an easy counter to aerial Fox though; if there's a chance to space it, it beats everything.
im actually interesteed/scared in how u develop as a player
u know ur stuff in the brawl, so learning the specs will come natural to u
fiction soaked up the game like a sponge, n fly amanitas improvement has been noted in part to the patience he got from brawl
lookin forward to playin ya sometime
ok and back on topic:
u-air a fox on top of a platform is tricky since it can be crouch canceled easy (from my experience)
u-air on falco i know is for the most part a big no-no (when challeging his aeriela game)
im not too sure how big of a no-no is u-airing a fox's aerieal game
edgeluca
Smash Lord
My bad I've been giving him Sheik practise
edgeluca
Smash Lord
Damn I was like even with him last time I played him, I hope I can beat him now since I just got 5th at a tourney beating people considered better than me.
Some theory guesses:
- You're underestimating the mediocre players / focusing better against the good players. Probably playing much less safe against mediocre players because you subconsciously think you can get away with it.
- You have nothing to lose playing people who are supposedly better than you. This was what influenced me the most.
- You get frustrated more against mediocre players.
- You've studied videos or the game in general a lot, so you expect people to do the "correct" responses. This was a minor factor for me. I used to watch like every video from every region and study m2k's videos for soo long lol
- You only THINK that you're doing better against the good people... when in reality you're losing a good chunk of the games. It's like when noobs play Mango and they're like "OMG he only 2 stokked me I saw him JV3 ZHU I must be better than zhu!" (dat TC1 / inui logic, depending on where you are from lol). Except you're obviously not doing it to that extent lol. Then when you go even with mediocre players you feel like you should be ****** them.
edgeluca
Smash Lord
Yeah I used to have this problem too, I beat Noobking and then lost to some guy who isn't really known at all. Now I kind of beat everyone better than me and lose to people better than me, because my mindset improved and I don't underestimate/overestimate anyone. ^_^