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ITT KirbyKaze talks about stuff and doesn't really expect responses

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Coming soon to a theater near you

In the meantime

Here's the frame data for U-tilt --> grab in close range on block

Green means shield stun

Red means not shield stun

U-tilt's second hit connects on frame 19 so that's why it's there

At some point I'll figure out the window between the U-tilt hits

19 / 19 U-tilt hits (hitlag 1)
20 / (hitlag 2)
21 / (hitlag 3)
22 / (hitlag 4)
23 / 20 U-tilt
24 / 21 U-tilt
25 / 22 U-tilt

26 / 23 U-tilt
27 / 24 U-tilt
28 / 25 U-tilt
29 / 26 U-tilt IASA / grab 1
30 / grab 2
31 / grab 3
32 / grab 4
33 / grab 5
34 / grab 6

35 / grab 7 (hits)
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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I don't know but I think i'd be better to d-tilt next becuase they've taken sheild damage so more likly it'll hit and d-tilt=grab on some people or upair on others. also duck>some grabs off my head i'd beat:falcon, gannon, maybe marth/roy depending on which frame of ducking or something can't rememeber how that works I looke dinto it once., peach, zedla, and someone esle i'm preeeeeeeeeeeettttttty sure. yeah I know i've got some trigger fingers for sheild grabs as an ex ice climbers main.

you should have f-tilt sheild stun data instead
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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it ***** lol D : what about LOL? I love LOLs it's like a close friend. : ( I think i'm going to cry. who's ICG? I'm Covered in Gravy?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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It will still help unless everything you are planning to write about regards Dthrow.
I guess I could address movement stuff

A lot of it is just stuff I ripped from Cactuar and experimented with

NTSC Sheik Peach is really about how you follow her and trap her after a small throw combo - turning the small combo into a big combo

And learning how to shoot needles at her to remind her she's slow
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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So in this matchup the neutral position is really interesting because Sheik has a lot of stuff she can do and a lot of it is garbage but some of it is really cool

Peach's Fair, D-tilt, D-smash, Nair, and Dash Attack all warrant different kinds of respect

Peach is also somewhat versatile in how she chooses to do her aerials because of her float and the possibility of her beginning an approach with turnips




A lot of the matches I used a lot of turnip catching --> turnip throw

I kind of spammed it so that naturally lead to some mixed results but it is an interesting sort of thing

It can be really good to keep the Peach off balance if they approach from too far and they can't really do much about it

If they approach closer, you can often dash under the turnip and then get a good position to get a free SH rising Fair, or Nair (side note: what works vs many Peaches is simply Nairing through the turnip as they throw it at you, especially if they have limited space; they jump throw it, expecting it to ward you off so you just crash through, tap them, and then combo to Fair or F-tilt and it's really good)

Often Peaches seem unsure of what to do when encountered with a turnip and they get hit and block after, treating it sort of like a Peach ditto I suppose, which can lead to free grabs (even if it's fairly undeserved)

Forcing Peach to shield is generally good in general

In the air you can sometimes combo turnip --> Nair/Fair

So by catching the turnips at certain distances you can force them to do different kinds of spacing because the focus becomes to be at a range where they can punish or engage you if you decide to catch the turnip (since Sheik with a turnip at far range, really, is just Sheik with more crap to throw at Peach only it controls space while she moves which is dandy, and Peach hates it when people just throw crap at her), but not be so close that Sheik can engage her before she's able to throw the turnip and get the nice safeguard



I would suggest experimenting with turnip catches too

They seem neat

Will add more at some point
 

giantimi

Smash Cadet
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so what are the percentages for killing peach?

like does dthrow ---> uair kill at 100& ( normal ceiling )

also does dthrow ---> usmash work only at low percentages?
 

KirbyKaze

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D-throw U-smash doesn't work. Unless they have a turnip or something. It's something to throw out when they don't expect it, if you plan on using it at all.

With good DI (on the Uair) on a "normal" level (by normal I assume you mean FD, PS, FoD, Battlefield type dimensions), if she DIs the throw away, she can expect to live to about 130-135 or so. If she doesn't DI the throw away, she can expect to live to about 125-130 or so.

Yoshi can be as low as 105-110.

Dreamland can hit 140+

I'm not sure if D-throw Uair true combos on DI away but it seems to work so go with it. I cannot for the life of me make it combo in training mode and I can get pretty much everything to work in training mode but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a "combo", in that she can't jump out (bad double jump), air-dodge (invincibility isn't immediate), and can't Nair out (priority/positioning thing) thus making it work.

Or maybe I'm just better at doing it when I'm playing who knows.

If you do bother to go for D-throw U-smash, DI away is about 80-90ish (before you throw her). If she doesn't DI away, you can go for it and if it works you can expect KOs around 70% (70% before you throw her). Only go for it if you're trying to KILL her because otherwise it's better to do guaranteed follows, trap her in a combo of sorts, or set up an edgeguard.
 

doob10163

Smash Cadet
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FoD has the 2nd highest ceiling out of all the neutrals, do the %ages still hold true?
 

KirbyKaze

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My post addresses stages... I said the percents were rough estimates for FoD, BF, FD, and PS.

Yoshi and DL64 are extremes in opposite directions and their kill percents are very different than those 4.
 

Ministry

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Things i like to do agasint peach.

The whole turnip thing. iv always liked to do it, i just stand still infront of them while they have the turnip. and i catch it, it works well cause its messes with her spacing if you just stand there. and of course needle-turnip-various followup works well after the catch.

i like to zone peach below me or to come above with needles on platforms.

Otherwise i pretty much always let peach make the first move and then just punish miss spacing, and if its one of those high pressure peaches, you bait the move and wd back.

If they like to float towards you, full hop and needle, you can always cancel it into fair if they start to catch on.

I find Bairs very powerfull, and sometimes u can soft bair to keep combos going. but its very situational.

i dunno, i feel like its my best matchup and i sort of just see openings, its hard to expalin.
 

KirbyKaze

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Yo you can use hard Bairs to keep combos going (percent and DI dependent)

Sheik's Bair is the Peach matchup

That and grab, Fair, needles, and pseudocombolaunchersrape
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Could you elaborate on how pseudo-comboing Peach tends to work? I feel like I never punish her as hard as I should once I get an opening.

*doesn't really know anything about Sheik in spite of occasionally using her in tournament >_<*
 

KirbyKaze

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That's a very complicated topic

But basically Peach only has a few good combo breakers in her moveset that she can depend on against Sheik to get herself out of stuff

Main tools she employs are

1) Nair variants
2) Air-dodge variants
3) Float away
4) Double jump away

Umbrella usually isn't an option since Sheik tries to be below her, though it deserves some attention if you ever wind up in that situation

A lot of simple stuff like D-throw F-tilt can be followed with a variety of good punishes if you can call or respond to her defense accordingly

It is helpful to recognize how the Peach handles pressure-heavy situations, though simple reaction time or educated guesses based on what the worst/best things you could hit can suffice... though that assumes they understand the situation, so recognizing habits or reaction time is better. A lot of people don't think of this style of follow as a combo, but an extension of combat, since Peach can technically escape if she reacts/calls/whatever every time. So a lot of combat habits may surface here (mashy people might try to Nair usually, or pick options that involve inputs like air-dodges). Though you'd expect adaptive players to change anyway. But enough of that.

Man I'm tired.

If Peach is trying to move away from you, you can generally chase her down with Fairs when she's floating away. It's pretty good to do so after D-throw F-tilt. Depending on height, you can also move in and F-tilt, though this one is harder. Fairs generally apply more pressure anyway.

If she's attacking out the D-throw F-tilt, you can do a bunch of stuff. Sometimes they attack with Fairs just for the meaty hit and priority, in which case you can stuff them. Nairs can be outprioritized depending on positioning with F-tilt, which leads to awesome combos. You can also use Fair. Another underlooked (and often inferior, though it has good moments) option is D-smash. The invincibility eats her Nair, often sneaks under Fair, and lasts long enough to often trump air-dodges intending to ground her. Can be useful to put her on the ledge, or offstage, for early percent stage advantage. Peach is AWFUL on the ledge, and putting her there is very good. You can make your "combo" last a stock by simply grinding her from that position if you respond to her actions appropriately. Her lack of a good ledgehop is a very abusable thing.

I'll add more later.
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
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Only kill percents change then, though.

The tactics in using them are still going to be fairly similar. Though Uair is so much weaker it becomes a lot more opportunistic killer when they are at a really high percent or close to the ceiling anyway. Though without easy mode Dthrow set ups, I couldn't see it being much more use in NTSC.
 

VA

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EDIT

^^

omg ur so annoying. why don't you practice smash instead of trolling like every thread/youtube video around.
 

Ministry

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Something i do/like/thought about. assuming its a flat stage like final destination or maybe Pokemon.

when peach is recovering and you have forced her to dismiss going for the ledge, and landing on stage.

the best thing to do is walking under her to follow her (obviously)

but there comes a point when she is in up-air range that she has to commit to a spot on the ground, regardless of where you are. Sure you can go for the up-air but they will most likely air dodge right away.

I like to take the 50-50% and run to a general spot where she might want to land and charge and/or up smash.

Three things happen

You tip her and do a lot of damage/kill her.
You hit her and knock her up and potentially continue with up-airs.
You miss.


if you do miss its very likely you missed because she is no where near you. There is a small chance that she lands close enough to not get hit and to punish you, although that's never happened to me.

this is just stuff i do

viable/not viable?

discuss i guess
 

KirbyKaze

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I prefer just boost grabbing a general space and covering a lot of ground with it to other stuff if she's drifting around with a parasol.
 

Stevo

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if a space animal is recovering from below the stage and you don't have time to grab the ledge, should you try to hit them with a d-smash, fair, needle, or luigi?

assuming they will be trying to sweet spot.
 

exarch

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I like this thread a lot KK, I'm considering doing something similar with Roy.

I'm sure there's a good number of lurkers out there like me who are reading and absorbing the information but not posting. That is to say, good job, keep it up, please.
 

KirbyKaze

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this is a good thread

but let's talk about ICs instead of peach
Okay. Since you play(ed) with Fly, why don't you get us started? Unless you want me to run everyone through spaced Fairs and Bairs...

You know, the stuff everyone already knows to do :laugh:

if a space animal is recovering from below the stage and you don't have time to grab the ledge, should you try to hit them with a d-smash, fair, needle, or luigi?

assuming they will be trying to sweet spot.
Air grab Luigi and throw down if possible, it's really good. Semi-spikes, can't be teched, does like 76%, and Firespikes them off the ceiling. You read that correctly.

Cover everything else with needles.

On stages (namely Yoshi's Story) where covering everything with needles isn't an option because of platforms, D-smash is probably easier to go for than Fair.

You could just say what I'm saying that is wrong instead of being an arse about it.
Drama llama strikes again!

I like this thread a lot KK, I'm considering doing something similar with Roy.

I'm sure there's a good number of lurkers out there like me who are reading and absorbing the information but not posting. That is to say, good job, keep it up, please.
Sheik is easy, you just tell everyone to use Uair a lot more and Dair if they can in their combos.
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
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Upair more?

And here I was telling people to nair more =3

Haha you should divulge your secret strategies with me on AIM more KK, that is when I actually give a **** about talking about this game.

Which is prolly when the semester starts.
 

strawhats

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I like this thread a lot KK, I'm considering doing something similar with Roy.

I'm sure there's a good number of lurkers out there like me who are reading and absorbing the information but not posting. That is to say, good job, keep it up, please.
hope to play you at Pound 5.
 

VA

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You could just say what I'm saying that is wrong instead of being an arse about it.
lol sorry dude.

It gets under my skin a bit that you give advice in like every thread ever (samus vs marth klol). It's nice you want to help people I guess :)
 
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