ITT KirbyKaze talks about stuff and doesn't really expect responses

[gm jack]

lol sorry dude.

It gets under my skin a bit that you give advice in like every thread ever (samus vs marth klol). It's nice you want to help people I guess

That was a bit stupid of me in that thread.

But in this case, what actually changes about how Uair/Usmash are used that doesn't relate to dthrow or their killing percents? I assume you vs beast is a better model then me vs mitsuki/degree.

 

[Jolteon]

That was a bit stupid of me in that thread.

But in this case, what actually changes about how Uair/Usmash are used that doesn't relate to dthrow or their killing percents? I assume you vs beast is a better model then me vs mitsuki/degree.

combos .

 

[Kira-]

Okay. Since you play(ed) with Fly, why don't you get us started? Unless you want me to run everyone through spaced Fairs and Bairs...

You know, the stuff everyone already knows to do

Damn I was hoping I could get away with not doing any work =P Welllll mostly as Fly got better at the matchup I realized more things that I shouldn't do rather than things that I should do... seems to be the case in a lot of my matchups so maybe that's a problem but here goes

Also keep in mind I haven't played a good ICs (fly/wobbles) in awhile so these aren't super fresh

...I don't like to throw out ftilts anymore, namely after whiffed fairs to cover myself or when ICs wavedash in, Fly CCs a lot of these since they're pretty standard and then runs forward and grabs me in my lag. I don't know what percent it starts to work but at low percents it gets you killed.

...I don't like to camp platforms as much anymore because believe it or not ICs can catch up to you and can play a few tricks to get you hit... and this kind of percentage/time battle is kind of just as hard as your regular ground game

...Edgeguarding side B was never a problem for me, just CC dsmash/dtilt or interrupt early with fair. I wasn't quite sure why other people didn't like edgeguarding it but maybe it was cause they weren't sheik

...ICs shield game is not very good, nana tends to get hit a lot and they rarely fullhop (since it leaves them very vulnerable). So (assuming you are close enough to pressure their shield) they are almost always wavedashing backwards or rolling. wavedash back is not easily punished but it puts them near the ledge, which is even worse of a bad position for them since they can't wavedash much anymore.

...Kind of theorycrafting here but I believe that Sheik's side of the matchup depends heavily on shield poking. mostly because their shield game is so bad and because that seems to be the least risky way to add damage. Also their shield isn't very good and they have to use it a lot so it's usually diminished

...Like many of sheik's other matchups, the hard part is adding damage at the early stages of each stock since your options are so limited during this time. As the damage gets higher the matchup becomes exponentially easier as you have tons of ways to approach/attack/interrupt/defend yourself.

... if you can dash attack them at mid percent they should die, ICs are the perfect combo weight

...if they up B kill the main character since even if you kill nana you can still get chaingrabbed. no matter what you're always susceptible to a 0-to-death


...I guess what i would try to do was approach with short hops and try to bait out a wd forward uptilt or wd forward upsmash then punish that. but i always got too greedy and tried to beat their wavedashing approaches which is hard cause they move fast, i should've been more patient and played a positioning game until i could get close enough to pressure their shield and win that way. Once you get to their shield you need to punish every escape option they try because that's the only way you're going to get any damage in.

.. I don't bair much cause I don't like how it doesn't hit low that easily but everyone tells me to bair more... so i'm probably doing it wrong. It's also bad to jab, dsmash, and dash attack cause they all can get you grabbed fairly easily

 

[exarch]

hope to play you at Pound 5.

Not currently planning on going to Pound 5 >_>

 

[WHA?]

I got a general question which is not sheik specific

my question is regarding sidestepping
i often used it, but after playing spacies i didnt find it too useful what with the shines n stuff
and sheild is genereally safer against them

from this i stopped using it altogether
but now i think its a situational thing

so my question is how good is it over sheilding?
i rarely see in in high level play, so i assume its very situational
of course spammin it gets very predictable but what situations is it best in?

 

[Forlorn.]

start playing him in tournament then :D

I'm picking him up as a serious secondary.

Would be awesome if KirbyKaze did too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I love Luigi but he blows so no.

 

[Forlorn.]

You love Luigi.

Therefore, you will start playing him.

Get at my circular logic.

 

[KirbyKaze]

WHA - Sidestep with Sheik is mostly for beating predicted grabs at high level... or just trying to gamble that their nerves + timing + surprise won't let them punish it and then you get out. It's also used as a mixup in teching and other punishment situations (though even then it's mainly to counter grab).





posting this to here too, with so far 1 edit

maybe we'll get some discussion going or something



How to anti-Fox:

Bair a ****load

WD back F-tilt a ****load (or just F-tilt)

When you pressure him into blocking, wait sometimes... Sheiks like to throw out moves on shields but a lot of that is completely unnecessary. Just wait. Fox has no range so there's a certain spot you can just sort of penis around outside of his range and punish him for coming out of shield. Inching forwards ever so slightly and grabbing him (you kind of do a Marth and grab him from really far away) is also good.

Also, Fox is really good at punishing that's even slightly misspaced on his shield so yeah there's a lot of good reasons to just wait or inch forward and grab, or inch forward just every so slightly and wait (while still being outside his U-smash/Dair/Nair oos range).

If they start jumping out of shield, throw moves above their head (Drephen does Fair, I do Bair, it doesn't really matter which but do something... you kind of pull a Peach here). You can also just attack them.

But in general, you want grabs and knockdowns more than anything so you can get the ball rolling. So take advantage of the fact that most people are fairly passive vs Sheik (and wait for your mindless, nooby tilt spam) and **** them.

When they approach, whenever it is a feasible option, move back grab (DD grab, pivot grab, WD back grab, variations of those, combination of movement --> grab, etc.) and then do a big tech chase or combo and **** them. Otherwise **** their move with range.

Offensively, just zone with your bigger range. Run, stop, attack if necessary or if they can't punish it (or if you can hit them with reasonably good spacing or with a low, strong aerial), otherwise move forward / back accordingly.








Extra - There are some tricks to hitting dash attacks / boost grabs and certain behaviours you can pick up on to make those happen but those only work against really specific styles of Fox movement. So just throwing them out when there isn't an opening can be bad because of the lag. It's better to generally abuse her moves' range, since it's an area where she's straight up better than Fox. If you have good tech chases, you should be outpacing him on the big punishes that occur in the stock.

Extra - A huge part of Fox's game in this MU is trying to not let you have spatial superiority. So a lot of times, when under pressure, it's best to just try your absolute best and reset the spacing to neutral. Trying to muscle through Fox only really works if Fox does something dumb (like jab or whatever and gets CCed) or if he makes an execution error. Even if you do muscle your way out of Fox pressure, it can often backfire because trying to force an F-tilt or whatever can just lead to him baiting them and getting stupidly ridiculous punishes. You will have to run away and reposition a lot. That's just how this MU is. It CAN be good to come down with attacks, or try to fight his spacing, but the main point I want to make is that you have to be extremely careful about doing it.

Extra - More on spacing. A lot of Fox's game will be spent trying to make you do moves in a range where it's unsafe to do so. So be careful in that far range, where he's slightly out of your F-tilt / Bair range and is waiting. At that point, you either want to be closer if you're going to push offense, or even further away if you're going to play defense. While I think defense is generally better, you have to use some offense in this MU. But doing moves in place to get baited and punished is... not good.

 

[Skyson]

Are there certain matchups where on-stage needles are more/less important? I don't use needles for much of anything besides edgeguarding, but I know they can be good to force the opponent to approach, like any projectile.

I would assume needles work best in matchups where the other character doesn't have a projectile (Marth, Falcon, Ganondorf..) but should it be your go-to thing to do when you have a lot of distance between yourself and the opponent? Like.. Fox is over there, should I chuck sewing equipment at him or run left and right until he gets angry?

Needles seem so simple in concept but I don't know why I don't like them..

 

[A New England Winter]

I love using Needles for edgeguards.

It makes me feel like a ninja irl.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Are there certain matchups where on-stage needles are more/less important? I don't use needles for much of anything besides edgeguarding, but I know they can be good to force the opponent to approach, like any projectile.

I would assume needles work best in matchups where the other character doesn't have a projectile (Marth, Falcon, Ganondorf..) but should it be your go-to thing to do when you have a lot of distance between yourself and the opponent? Like.. Fox is over there, should I chuck sewing equipment at him or run left and right until he gets angry?

Needles seem so simple in concept but I don't know why I don't like them..

They have two uses onstage.

1) Needles troll slower characters into approaching. So characters like Peach and Ganon, basically. They're also good vs Marth.

2) The other main use is to distract people and make them work around it... sometimes people will jump or whatever because you're charging needles and then you can cancel them and punish. The focus changes from attacking Sheik to avoiding sewing equipment, which is dandy.

Who are needles bad against?

Super fast characters like Fox, Falcon... or those with natural counters to them like Falco and Puff. Most of the characters listed there can move well in and out of shield, or cover enough distance in the air quickly that doing needles is problematic. Falco is somewhat tempting to omit from this group, since some needle setups are good against him (same with Puff) but for the purpose of this post, assume I'm strictly talking about ground needles. The distinction is because aerial needles can be treated to some degree as an actual move, whereas grounded needles are used strictly as a more traditional projectile.

 

[Skyson]

I was referring to ground needles to be honest, haha.

I never looked at it like that. Needles against Peach.. I like it.

Tilt options seem to be odd for me sometime. I think f-tilt is normally the better one to use, but..

Is it sometimes possible to better beat out an oncoming attack by outprioritizing with up tilt than outranging with f-tilt? It feels like up tilt, with its two hitboxes, thus longer duration, has more priority than f-tilt. I could be totally wrong.

I feel like I could ask a million questions, and the depth of your answers are awesome. 3:

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're directly above you, U-tilt is better. U-tilt is bad vs people in front of you because it has less consistency with its trades / wins. It's less disjointed as it comes out, the second hitbox (where it's super disjointed) is also extremely slow, and there's a gap in between the hits where you can simply just get hit.

If they're anywhere but directly above you, F-tilt is better and more easily controllable.


Needles are only good if you're far enough for them to not get you punished, btw. I shouldn't have to say this, but honestly you should not do needles if they have enough distance to call the needle, jump over it, and hit you in your lag. That's too close.

 

[Skyson]

Hm. Up tilt for up, f-tilt for... everything else.

Out of shield stuff confuses me. Shieldgrabbing seems to be what every other player/character expects Sheik to do out of her shield. Nair coming out in 3 frames makes me think that oos nair can be more of a surprise tactic than knowing you're stuck in shield, outranged, unable to grab. It looks like nair outranges her grab range, too.

Or maybe it's better to wait it out in shield and maybe wavedash back to f-tilt or something.

Basically I'm wondering if OOS nair is a good option for Sheik. Fox's nair comes out in 4 frames and his OOS nair seems to be a perfectly viable option among other things. Is it Sheik's not-so-good shorthop that makes this not a worthy idea?

I get shield pressured a lot and I think that always wanting to shieldgrab instead of doing anything else leads to people putting on constant pressure to prevent a grab. If something can come out faster and be more effective, I'd like to say it's doable. OOS naaaaair.

 

[Jolteon]

nair oos is a solid option.

other options are:

wd oos (used to just reset the situation vs shield pressure or punish things like peach dsmash/marth fsmash)
roll oos (don't overuse it)
spotdodge (used to punish grabs)

Also look into shield di and how to use it to get gay grabs

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm actually really bad at Nair OOS.

From what I can tell it's good vs Falco and when people throw attacks deep into your shield so your shield grab will whiff.

Otherwise I don't really use it.

 

[angel_without_heart]

kk, I watch your match against PP and i was really impressed by your game, your ability to kill with up-smash (shame it's weaker in pal) and other stuffs. But I noticed when you recover , PP tried to Dair you when you are vulnerable and you escaped it by doing a weird tech. My friend punish me everytime whatever the DI on this Dair so I really want to know how to do it (double Stick down and tech maybe?)

you did it at 2'40 and 5'28 on the first set on YS.

sry my english isn't perfect

 

[KirbyKaze]

hold down with both sticks, hit r/l at some point before you get hit by the dair

 

[GooeyBanana]

Just a quick verification on this. Spacing battle vs. Fox. In my mind, I'm thinking either jump up on a platform and needle cancel camp or WD ftilt/standing ftilt if he decides to finally approach. Only problem here is, Foxes ofc try to fullhop nair sometimes, and ftilt typically misses. Should I just utilt instead or will that not beat the nair? I'd figure if it doesn't, I'd just shield instead and usually they end up behind my shield after the fullhop nair so I could just WD OoS forward to reset the situation....any input on all of this KK?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just a quick verification on this. Spacing battle vs. Fox. In my mind, I'm thinking either jump up on a platform and needle cancel camp or WD ftilt/standing ftilt if he decides to finally approach. Only problem here is, Foxes ofc try to fullhop nair sometimes, and ftilt typically misses. Should I just utilt instead or will that not beat the nair? I'd figure if it doesn't, I'd just shield instead and usually they end up behind my shield after the fullhop nair so I could just WD OoS forward to reset the situation....any input on all of this KK?

I don't like going on platforms for very long vs Fox. Needle camping him like that is... easy for the Fox to counter. Shielding needles and then getting under you with a WD OOS is really bad for you. I mean, platforms are important for certain aerial styles and positioning crap but I really don't like being on them for very long with Sheik (exceptions are like... sort of but not really Peach, ICs, and Puff).

Fox FJ Nair is counterable a few ways, some gayer than others.

Moving further back with F-tilt can work if they're going to end up above and in front of you when they descend to hit you. If they're going to be right on top of you, U-tilt isn't a bad idea, nor is jumping away with Bair (Bair *****, true story). If they're starting Nair early, you can also easily CC grab this, since it's a pretty telegraphed approach.

I do not recommend blocking vs this style of offense. Blocking puts the ball in his court because resetting to neutral from block vs Fox isn't easy if they're good. I'd much sooner recommend trying to beat his moves, evade his moves, or CC to something.

One last way to shut down FJ Nairs is to simply be under a platform. If they try it, they get absorbed by the platform during descent, and then you can punish.of

 

[Roneblaster]

the answer is downthrow.

sheik discussion has offically come to an end.

 

[GooeyBanana]

When you say jumping away bair, I'm assuming you mean turn around and jump away bair, or by chance do you mean face the approaching Fox and just jump back and bair with the front of Sheik =P?

I'm pretty sure you meant the former, but I'll ask just to verify that it isn't the latter =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

>_>

Yes I mean use the foot where the hitbox is.

Sheik's face doesn't have a hitbox on Bair.

 

[Stevo]

it should though

 

[gm jack]

One equivalent in power to the knee.

Just because.

 

[A New England Winter]

It should also have grab priority.

Again, just because.

 

[GooeyBanana]

Ummm ok yeah I guess I worded that wrong. Whatevs, I get your point, I won't elaborate on what I meant xD Thanks =P

 

[Ministry]

lets talk about falco and his gayness.

avoiding pressure when in sheild, and ways to not be in sheild. spacing but also being agressive.

i know the nair oos or nair over followed by uptilt, and spacing fairs, maybe its just execution for me, recently just having a really hard time vs really technical falcos.

no point discussing tech chasing cause thats obvious. and ledge guarding is just about reaction.

im haveing trouble with onstage war with falco, asuming the falco is better then me. bad falcos are no problem.

 

[The_Doug]

A couple of things I like to do against pillar happy Falco is throw in light shielding every once in a while, or even on the first game do light shielding the whole match. Then on the 2nd game mix up the light shielding with regular shielding and it'll cause some Falcos to mess up a bit.

Every Falco I've ever fought really hates to play on either Brinstar or KJ64.

Random dash attacks at mid range, keep it to only two or three per game though, are good because if you time it right or predict it you will go under his laser and hit him. If you time it wrong you'll just eat a laser and are usually at range where he can't punish easily.

Just one last comment about Falco - it seems like at higher percents 105%+ they start to throw out f-smash more, especially when they start to get nervous or under pressure. Really need to take advantage of this and shield grab to tech chase, or n-air oos to edge guard, or if you have KK's reactions up-smash oos to a massive punish.

Sorry KK didn't mean to hijack your thread. This is probably the matchup I've played the most of in my Melee history, and if someone can help me with Fox (help please), I try and help with Falco whenever I can. Also great tip about Sheik's b-air - I had no idea about that.

tl;dr - Don't let Falco's pressure change get to your head. Light shield. I suck vs Fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The thread is meant to be used for discussion, I don't mind if you guys want to talk about Falco.

I'll provide input later.

 

[TKD]

I decided to start playing SSBM -which I used to do at a very shallow level- and I'm thankful for what you're doing here, KirbyKaze.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I played Unknown's Falco for about 2.5 hours today.

Moving around in spite of his spam is like, super important. Empty SH (FF is not always required) waveland is really important to keep his lasers from futtbucking you. Platforming well is also going to be very important because he's going to force you off the same plane as him because that's just the kind of person he is.

Cactuar's laser spacing thing is really good but I suck at implementing it so far.

My Falco game is completely based on being able to move quickly on the ground despite lasers. I've spent a lot of time working on being able to move out of the shield stun of a laser with wavedashes, and it lets me really mess up laser approach spacing. This is just my personal strategy and I don't think any other Marth players, other than the ones I've taught this to, do something like this. It's a bit complicated, but boiled down its like this: Falco approaches in set increments most of the time. 1 unit of this increment is equal to the distance the Falco covers while doing a SHL. You want to constantly reposition yourself so that you are always at a .5 of a distance away from the Falco, optimally at .5 or 1.5. If they get impatient and try to attack, you can easily punish with a quick fair out of shield, or grab, or whatever you want really. It's something you really need to think about and practice to implement properly.

Obviously what you do from OOS is much different than Marth Fair but... same principle. You're not always just taking the laser to your block and then Nairing OOS. Sometimes you just flash your shield for a second and then immediately move out of it with SH or WD back. See if they'll come to you, then protect yourself with movement or moves. People like to hit shields with kicks for some reason.

On that note, you're mostly going to be counter-fighting. Straight up initiating vs Falco is tough as nails because he's got a really good gun for shooting you and Sheik's aerial mobility sucks. As a result, in addition to lots of patience, you're going to need really good tech skill, especially with movement. WDing out of shield on his pressure and when he strikes your shield is of incredible importance. Being able to control your jumps and wavelands are similarly crucial.

U-tilt is good substitute for jab reset vs non-tech so long as you F-tilt / jab immediately after if they get launched by the 2nd hit off the ground.

I don't like jumping over lasers and attacking as much as I used to, because retreat laser ***** it, and because they can often dash out of the way before Sheik can reach because of her beastmode aerial mobility. But it's not bad to do sometimes. It's becoming increasingly situational, though.

Just random thoughts.

MU is too complicated to really summarize but basically you try to get a clean hit at some point and make him explode. And you run around and try not to die. Use big hitboxes periodically. Don't get ***** by lasers. Space yourself far so you can F-tilt after lasers, or close so lasers are a slightly bigger commitment than normal. Being in Falco's good zone sucks balls and you have to get out of there ASAP or you'll die a gruesome death involving a 2 minute edgeguard loop via his D-smash/F-smash.

 

[Cactuar]

I was thinking about this. I use .5 spacings as Marth because of the amount of range I can cover. I don't use .5 spacings with Fox because I can't cover those same options. As Sheik, think about what your options are at the various Falco ranges and what would be most beneficial to you. If you are using .5 spacing as Sheik, you won't have that same fair out of shield to cover massive range. Falco's laser might stuff you in that situation. The important thing to take away from that post, as a player of a different character than the one I wrote that for, is how to observe Falco. You really need to find the best possible ranges for your character if you are trying to implement that specific strategy.

I'm very happy to see you expanding on the basics of what we've discussed though!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mmhmm.

I put your post in to see where this line of thought originates from, but yeah, Sheik's ideal distance is really going to be just over a Bair, F-tilt, etc. Maybe .33 of a laser. Actually, Sheik's kind of funny in that regard in that it kind of changes based on her "stance", simply because her aerials and moves while facing Falco and her Bair have such radically different ranges above her and below her and horizontally. Sheik you so crazy.

Patience is so important vs. Falco. You really do just want to hit him but... if you try to rambo very directly you will seriously just hurt yourself. His laser intensifies his defensive options while limiting your offensive ones to such a degree it's just crushing at times.

 

[Cactuar]

.33 is pretty close to what I was thinking.

*is proud of you*

 

[KirbyKaze]

But with your back turned it can fluctuate between .33 and .4

SHEIK'S TOO HARD CACTUS

 

[Nogzor'z]

Hmm... reading this made me think about my falco matchup.

*runs away before sheiks eat me*

 

[Ministry]

i can never land the ftilt after laser, im doing it wrong probably.

i find that i like to be in the range where i can start my dash attack and it is able to hit under him, and even if he is at low % i will be behind him and he can punish effectivly.

thats probably around .4 or .5 lser distance.

otherwise like david said i try to constantly move. i
i find when im infront of falco prssuring with jabs and tilts u have 2 options with that pressure.

wait for the roll, or just grab him, either work but i think punishing the rolls lets them know they cant get away with it. in turn it makes your grabs easier on him since they are afraid to roll.

just my thoughts vs weonx falco

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Falco is good at lasering then you can't F-tilt after the laser before his approach or whatever comes out. It takes too long for her leg to swing up.