It's the "So Long Ness" Monster of an update

[Hippochinfat]

Double post. Ignore.

 

[EPX2]

Not only did Sakurai say "There has been a character named Ness who has appeared in the smash brothers series up until now"

Which means nothing, as has already been established. He also said "I've included handicaps until now," and we know for a fact that handicaps are returning.

Ness is out. You Ness fanboys have to realize that.

"Up until now" means nothing. You "LOL NESS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO BE OUT" fanatics needs to realize that.

You just proved yourself wrongwith your own point. The handicap quote was something that made a few more Ness fans believe he was out. Go read the handicap update. Sakurai changed the way they work now. They don't use dmage ratios form 1-9 anymore. You give each person a set percent of damage to start out with each time.

Except Sakurai never made any distinction between the two handicap systems with that quote. Hell, at that point in the update, we're not even aware of the change, so no, he's not saying, "The old handicap system has been in the SSB series up until (and not including) now" seeing as how there is no "new" handicap system - it hasn't been introduced yet.

See this topic:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=128811

I'm curious to know if you think there are also more characters besides Wario that have alt costumes?

No, because it quite clearly reads on that update that those are exclusive to Wario. Your analogy doesn't work here since we've already seen that there are several logical ways to read that sentence in question; there's only one correct way to read that sentence from the Wario update.

 

[Hippochinfat]

Which means nothing, as has already been established. He also said "I've included handicaps until now," and we know for a fact that handicaps are returning.



"Up until now" means nothing. You "LOL NESS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO BE OUT" fanatics needs to realize that.



Except Sakurai never made any distinction between the two handicap systems with that quote. Hell, at that point in the update, we're not even aware of the change, so no, he's not saying, "The old handicap system has been in the SSB series up until (and not including) now" seeing as how there is no "new" handicap system - it hasn't been introduced yet.

See this topic:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=128811



No, because it quite clearly reads on that update that those are exclusive to Wario. Your analogy doesn't work here since we've already seen that there are several logical ways to read that sentence in question; there's only one correct way to read that sentence from the Wario update.

Haha you totally avoided all my other points.

Also, he said that for handicap because it's totally different now.

 

[Limey]

Look. There were clones in Melee, maybe there will be in Brawl? Maybe Ness would be Luigified.

I personally think that people should keep an open mind until the game is released and either Ness turns up, or doesn't, because otherwise someone's going to have egg on their face.

 

[shadowyoshi2345]

i believe ness will be in, unless there is another character from the mother series in the game

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Because you're so incredibly orange, my replies will be in a gentle blue.
Even though I hate you a little bit.

If that isn't enough proof, Lucas shares a lot (alot isn't a word, allot is, but that means to distribute) of Ness's moves.

No he doesn't.

He has Ness's:
Fair (Lucas update)
They've never shown anything resembling a fair, other than PSI Magnet, which is obviously PSI Magnet.
Dair (Lucas update)
The "Dair" is shown in a later update to be his bair. That's nothing but camera angles.
Bair (Lucas special moves)
I don't recall Ness' Bair spinning and dispensing psychic justice, or being a meteor smash.
Dash attack (Pictochat)
It's impossible, and unreasonable, for that to be a dash attack. It's likely his ftilt, as 1) There are no dash plumes of smoke behind him 2) Lucas is positioned in a way that completely destroys momentum, dash attacks don't do that 3) It's giving off the smoke that ftilts usually give off.
Up special (Lucas special moves)
Judging by the close arc and Lucas' before/after positioning, the movement of his version of PK Thunder is changed by a lot. It's similar, but not the same.
Down special ( Lucas special moves)
It leaves his back and head completely open to projectiles. It might have the same effect, but it's not used the same by any means.
Side special (Lucas special moves)
The downward angle of Ness' PK Fire is a tactical advantage in some situations, and Lucas' gets rid of this. What's more, the fire explodes diagonally, rather than upwards, which will likely get rid of a lot of PK Fire's juggling ability and make it more geared towards hitting multiple opponents with a single burst.
SORT OF his neutral special (Lucas special moves)
'Sort of' nothing. Based on the reports of Japanese players, it moves in a far different pattern, and based on screenshots, does not explode in such a wide or damaging area.
Forward smash (Subspace emissary movie)
Lucas takes a bit more lag at the end of it from what we can see, and it's furthermore a stick, and not a bat. It's going to be weaker than Ness'.

Ness is out. You Ness fanboys have to realize that
You egotistical sheepminds need to realize that you don't know a thing until the final roster is played through and revealed either by an official Nintendo guide or by the Japanese players. Your loosely supported opinions are far from fact.

 

[Hippochinfat]

Since I don't know how to quote your quote I'll type it here.

In the original Lucas update we see Lucas doing Ness's fair except with one arm.

That was definetly Ness's Dair in that update and you know it.

They showed Lucas doing Ness's Bair in the other update, sure it's a meteor smash now other then that it's the same thing.

It's definetly Ness's dash attack. Ness is in that same pose in his dash attack and you can see the smoke from the dashing.

His up special is EXACTLY the same.

Of course his down+B will be used the same even if it leaves his back open.

The fact that it flys forward is just a minor difference.

You just made up that part about the japanese players impressions and it explodes exactly how PK flash would explode sometimes since the more you hold it down the bigger the explosion gets.

Oh please it's exactly the same as his bat. The part about less knockback is just your speculation.

Ness fanboys are so stupid.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Hating you a little bit more, learn to read, please.

Since I don't know how to quote your quote I'll type it here.

In the original Lucas update we see Lucas doing Ness's fair except with one arm.
Again, that's PSI Magnet.
That was definetly Ness's Dair in that update and you know it.
Again, that was his bair. It was shown in a later update, and several updates since then, to have the exact same pose. It is his BAIR.
They showed Lucas doing Ness's Bair in the other update, sure it's a meteor smash now other then that it's the same thing.
No, it's not. Ness' Bair did not spin, nor did it meteor, and I would not be surprised if Lucas' bair has the same lag as Ness' meteor smash Dair.
It's definetly Ness's dash attack. Ness is in that same pose in his dash attack and you can see the smoke from the dashing.
Ness is not in the same pose at all. Lucas is again using one arm, and his feet are planted. Smoke rises up from ftilts, and that's what it is. Look at Fox higher up on the stage. HE is dashing. He has several small brown puffs behind him. Lucas does not. Furthermore, Ness' dash attack was a lunge with both hands. This thing you're claiming as Lucas' dash attack isn't the same pose at all. Have you even used Ness?

His up special is EXACTLY the same.
Again, no it's not. It has a different arc, and if you look at the screenshots, it looks like Lucas doesn't even drop.
Of course his down+B will be used the same even if it leaves his back open.
Leaving his back open is a disadvantage over Ness'. Therefore, it is not the same.
The fact that it flys forward is just a minor difference.
It is most certainly not a minor difference, neither is the way his fire explodes, which you so ignorantly chose to ignore.
You just made up that part about the japanese players impressions and it explodes exactly how PK flash would explode sometimes since the more you hold it down the bigger the explosion gets.
Have you even read the JumpFiesta thread?
Oh please it's exactly the same as his bat. The part about less knockback is just your speculation.
It might be, but then again, so is your entire argument.
Ness fanboys are so stupid.
When logic fails, I guess you have to resort to personal attacks. Petty.

 

[G-Rabbit]

People said that the handicap thing makes the 'Ness is out' theory stronger. "Unti now" Ness and Handicaps have been in the Smash Brothers Series. Well, handicap is still in, but different. Maybe Ness is stiil in but different, with a brand new moveset which would explain why Lucas got most of Ness's old moves. Well why would they make a new moveset for Ness? Why wouldn't the new moves go to the new character? There's been many odd and strange things done in Smash Bros. Where else would you see an electric rodent being sucked up by a balloon esque creature while an Italian plumber beats up on a very skinny Ethiopian lookin' black man without being arrested for a hate crime?

 

[Gargomon251]

Can someone get a few screenshots to compare? I feel this back-and-forth "it's identical" "no it's not" to be getting nowhere, and it would be nice to illustrate once and for all.

However, about the special moves: I don't think the argument was whether they were IDENTICAL, but the fact that they are too "cloney" or too similar. Regardless, I think enough moves are different.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Can someone get a few screenshots to compare? I feel this back-and-forth "it's identical" "no it's not" to be getting nowhere, and it would be nice to illustrate once and for all.

However, about the special moves: I don't think the argument was whether they were IDENTICAL, but the fact that they are too "cloney" or too similar. Regardless, I think enough moves are different.

Ness and Lucas having the same moves, with only a different effect/color/look makes them different enough?! Play this little game called Super Smash Bros Melee, in which there are clones and tell me how completely different they are. Link and Young Link must be soooo different because YL's arrows have fire, and his Spin Attack isn't as wide....

Ther Until Now thing and the handicaps argument does not help Ness's chances. People keep saying that handicaps are in, but I wish one of the fanboys would read and notice that the old handicap system was scrapped, and now they have it where you start with a pre-determined amount of damage.

 

[Limey]

I'd say there are differences for sure. In pretty much the same way Mario and Luigi were different in Melee.

Mario neutral B - Fireball :- It falls down with the flow of gravity and bounces a few times.
Luigi neutral B - Fireball :- It flies directly ahead.

Mario up B - Super Jump :- Mario jumps up diagonally and if he connects with someone hits them multiple times.
Luigi up B - Super Jump :- Luigi flies directly up, and if he connects he hits them once. Also, if positioned right, you set the opponent on fire and deal more damage.

Mario down B - Mario Tornado :- Spins around and if he connects, hits the enemy multiple times.
Luigi down B - Luigi Tornado :- Spins around and if he connects, hits the enemy once.

The major difference is their across B, and while PK Freeze and PK Flash are similar, i'd say they're different enough to be seperate moves.

Whereas...

Ness down B - PSI Magnet :- Magnet completely surrounds Ness and absorbs projectiles
Lucas down B - PSI Magnet :- Magnet covers Lucas' front and absorbs projectiles.

Ness up B - PK Thunder :- Thunder is controllable and can be used to propell Ness. Wide arcs.
Lucas up B - PK Thunder :- Thunder is controllable and can be used to propell Lucas. Tight arcs.

Ness across B - PK Fire :- On ground, fire flies forward, in air it flies diagonally down. On contact fire spurts upward.
Lucas across B - PK Fire :- Flies straight across regardless. On contact there seems to be more of an 'explosion' of fire.



Now, like i said earlier, i'm neither arguing for or against Ness' inclusion, because we'll find out soon, but i don't think there's just cause to completely rule him out.

 

[Gargomon251]

Ness and Lucas having the same moves, with only a different effect/color/look makes them different enough?! Play this little game called Super Smash Bros Melee, in which there are clones and tell me how completely different they are. Link and Young Link must be soooo different because YL's arrows have fire, and his Spin Attack isn't as wide....

Ther Until Now thing and the handicaps argument does not help Ness's chances. People keep saying that handicaps are in, but I wish one of the fanboys would read and notice that the old handicap system was scrapped, and now they have it where you start with a pre-determined amount of damage.

Only the special moves and one or two standard attacks are the same. Hardly as close as the previous clones.

And the "until now" is too vague to be conclusive. Too many people are using it for one argument or the other when it's simply poorly worded and/or ambiguous.

 

[Gargomon251]

Sorry to double post. Here I have my comparisons. Sorry for the low quality screenshots,

Up tilt. Needs no explanation.

This is the move from the video. Hard to make out from a still, but it's clear in mothion that it's not like any of Ness's attacks. Judging from the hitbox, it seems to be a Nair, like Mewtwo's.

The "stick" smash. I'll admit, it has the same motions as the Homerun Bat, but it remains to be seen how the damage or knockback are set.

I noticed this on the PictoChat stage. IT seems it can be no other than Lucas's Fair. Nowhere close to Ness.

These are both the exact same attack, beyond any doubt.

Both Down Smashes. Again, no similarities.

All three of these seem to be the exact same move: Lucas's Bair. it seems to have a disjointed hitbox that reaches down a bit more than Ness, also explaining the Meteor properties. Similar animation, different effect.

The last one. This move looks to be his Combo A move, seemingly similar to Mewtwo. That "smoke" also appears during other moves like smashes, so that isn't necessarily a dash skid...

 

[Chi's Finest]

I may disagree with him, but I comemorate Gargoman for taking the time to do those comparisons.

 

[EPX2]

People keep saying that handicaps are in, but I wish one of the fanboys would read and notice that the old handicap system was scrapped, and now they have it where you start with a pre-determined amount of damage.

If you'd read my post, you'd see that I already addressed (and debunked) that claim.

Haha you totally avoided all my other points.

Duh? The rest of your message was completely irrelevant in regards to the point I was making, so there's no reason to address those points.

Also, he said that for handicap because it's totally different now.

Haha you totally didn't read my post because I already covered this.

 

[heytallman]

Hey Gargomon, what is the link for the video(s) with Lucas gameplay? I looked back in this thread a couple pages but couldn't find it. I'm very interested in using Lucas for Brawl, so I'm just curious to see how he plays. Also, great comparisons between him and Ness.

 

[Gargomon251]

Hey Gargomon, what is the link for the video(s) with Lucas gameplay? I looked back in this thread a couple pages but couldn't find it. I'm very interested in using Lucas for Brawl, so I'm just curious to see how he plays. Also, great comparisons between him and Ness.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/modea10.html
he only shows briefly

 

[csir]

http://data.nintendo.co.jp/smashbros/en_us/movie071221a_ver8e.swf

I never saw that video.. Good to see Lucas has a bat

 

[thesage]

Link and Young Link must be soooo different because YL's arrows have fire, and his Spin Attack isn't as wide....

I just have to say that link and y.link's up-b's are probably really different. One being an average move and the other being ****.

Link and y.link's projectiles were different enough for them to have entirely different projectile games.

The only characters that are similar are doc and mario. All the other clones have enough different properties to make them unique see: Marth vs. Roy and Fox vs. Falco.

 

[Gargomon251]

I just have to say that link and y.link's up-b's are probably really different. One being an average move and the other being ****.

Link and y.link's projectiles were different enough for them to have entirely different projectile games.

The only characters that are similar are doc and mario. All the other clones have enough different properties to make them unique see: Marth vs. Roy and Fox vs. Falco.

I don't agree, both Links, Chus, Star Fox members, and Fire Emblem swordsmen had basically the same ANIMATIONS, even if the damage or effects were different. Now compare ganondorf to CF. Their aerials are mostly totally different, as well as almost every standard move, such as neutral A and up tilt. And luigi is barely a clone of mario at all anymore.

 

[Williampettysan]

Ness was suppose to be out in Melee stop complaining.

 

[Gargomon251]

Ness was suppose to be out in Melee stop complaining.

Yes, that's been repeatedly established. Read the rest of the comments.

 

[Williampettysan]

I think you mixed the Down Smash for down tilt. <.<

 

[webrunner]

No, because it quite clearly reads on that update that those are exclusive to Wario. Your analogy doesn't work here since we've already seen that there are several logical ways to read that sentence in question; there's only one correct way to read that sentence from the Wario update.

Of course, one could argue that Pikachu also has alternate costumes instead of alternate colors-since each one is individually modeled.

 

[Xiroey2]

[edited for privacy]

 

[Lance87]

I don't think by "up until now" he meant "up until now, but not anymore." i think it was just an awkward way of saying that Ness has been in all the previous games. Also, since they've said that Lucas was very different, I think there's still a big hope for Ness.

EDIT: I just read back a little to where someone pointed out the "i've included handicaps up until now" statement.

GOGO NESS FOR BRAWL!!

 

[gangstajuice02]

we all don't know until they reveal it!!! So... CHILL!!!

 

[Drik Khaail]

Up until now, I haven't posted in this topic much. I posted in this in probably 40 pages ago, do the math. I'm a die hard Ness main, but I think he's had his head handed to him.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

Well ever since Lucas was announced, it fueled the fires of speculation that Sakurai would be doing what he planned for Melee: Remove Ness and replace him with Lucas. People held on to the chance that Lucas was just a new character as Ness had been in the previous 2 games and become popular, and the fact that Lucas seemed to have moves that weren’t like Ness’ . Unfortunately, todays update, Lucas’ Special Moves, also contained this statement from Sakurai.

There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now.

So long Ness, I hardly knew ye…

Quoted to show even moderators are talking out of their *** and are assuming things without valid proof. Remember guys, they don't know any more about the game than us.

PWNED.

 

[RazeveX]

Yeah, its funny how if a few mods believe something, others will follow like sheep off a cliff.

This whole time i've been saying that the "up until now" was just a translation and meant nothing; but no one believed me until this whole Ness Lucario Jiggly breakthrough.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Almost nobody believed my friend's translation of that Ness article, that talked about Ness CONTINUING to be a competitor, but it looks like they should have. I wonder if any of the people who flamed Ness supporters are actually gonna man up and apologize for being so rude.

Furthermore, 9/10 English majors I've spoken to agreed: Up until now doesn't carry absence.

I'm glad this is finally over. What a win.

 

[A_Sah_ Shi]

I'm kinda curious about what they're going to do now that we know both Lucas and Ness are in. I mean, are they just going to be complete clones of each other, are they going to have a Mario and Luigi style relationship in terms of move set,, or will Ness feature an all new original move set? I mean, Sakurai seems to really be against having clone characters in Brawl, but if Ness is going to have a completely original move set, why not just let Ness keep his moves, and make Lucas all new? I'm kind of hoping they'll acknowledge that Ness was confirmed, however accidentally, on the Dojo and make a character update explaining what Ness will be like in Brawl.

 

[Gargomon251]

Hmmm, who could that be?

There is now no doubt in my mind. Notice the black circle.... Who else could that possibly be?

 

[-NEOLINK-]

im happy ness was just for sure confirmed in japans opening. Which makes the sticker theory true which also confirms lucario for sure, right?

 

[PikachuSSBM]

howe annoying. ness comes back to defend lucas and bloody wario trophy's him :@

 

[SomeRandomGuy]

howe annoying. ness comes back to defend lucas and bloody wario trophy's him :@

I didn't see wario trophy him?

Anyways, I really didn't care if ness came back or not. Same with marth. nut i might play as them every now and then.

Also i owuld rather have mewtwo than lucario. Just saying.

 

[9bit]

I really had no problem with clones in Melee. I know a lot of people did, but I came to terms with it.

Clones in Brawl, however, pisses me off. I'd imagine they had plenty of time with this game to not have to put any clones in.

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

I really had no problem with clones in Melee. I know a lot of people did, but I came to terms with it.

Clones in Brawl, however, pisses me off. I'd imagine they had plenty of time with this game to not have to put any clones in.

it does kind of annoy me too..but i'll dea with it because my love for the game (^^)v....just one thing though....did Sakurai actually say he wasnt going to put any clones in the game??? i just want to make sure...

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I really had no problem with clones in Melee. I know a lot of people did, but I came to terms with it.

Clones in Brawl, however, pisses me off. I'd imagine they had plenty of time with this game to not have to put any clones in.

That's exactly my problem with this. Sakurai DID say in his interview that he was going to avoid clones as readily as possible. So what did we get? Wolf: ANOTHER Fox clone; Lucas: a Ness special moves clone; Falco, Ganondorf, and Toon Link: returning characters who were barely altered.

Really, I think my only real annoyance is Wolf. Why do we need another Fox clone? And why couldn't they think of a new special moveset for Lucas? Like there aren't enough special abilities in Mother3.