Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Rubyiris]

hay guise. whats going on in this thread? :3

 

[Wave⁂]

MixMence's Draco Meteor vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature Bronzor with Pre-ev Stone:
31.4% - 37.1%

+2 DDMence's Outrage vs. 252 / 252 +nature Bronzor with Pre-ev Stone:
65.1% - 76.7%

 

[kirbyraeg]

It cures any status effect.

With the percent chance, obviously.

So tell me why having a 30% chance of waking up is better than any other ChestRest pokémon who don't have to bother with a mere chance of waking up to sweep.

 

[Tomo Takino]

Because that takes up your item slot, and chances are they aren't as mixed bulky as he is.

 

[The Real Gamer]

So is it safe to say the top 3 Gen 5 threats are:

Shanderra?
Ground Mole?
Eruufun?

I'm still studying the new meta-game since I don't have access to it yet.

 

[Zook]

Ground Mole?

Why do people distinguish Doryuuzu as the ground mole? Aren't moles already generally associated with ground? Plus we already have a ground mole.

He's part Steel, shouldn't he be the Steel Mole?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Idk everyone kept saying "Ground Mole" cause they couldn't remember his name so the it kinda stuck with me. :\

 

[UltiMario]

I could always remember it as Doryuuzu lol.

Also, the builder of PO decided that it was a good idea to not release a currently 95% done Gen V server until B/W is released in America.

So, let's see how I can boot up the old server, and maybe paste some new updates into it.

 

[Cease Tick]

I could always remember it as Doryuuzu lol.

Also, the builder of PO decided that it was a good idea to not release a currently 95% done Gen V server until B/W is released in America.

So, let's see how I can boot up the old server, and maybe paste some new updates into it.

Do this, pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease
****it, I'm so mad right now. This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

 

[kirbyraeg]

maybe then i could finally play my first b/w battle instead of talking out of my *** the whole time. 8D

 

[Cease Tick]

I posted this in the thread Coyotte made on the PO forums, I'm saving it here because I have a feeling that it will probably be deleted. Here's a link to the thread if you want.

What are the benefits of you arbitrarily denying us access to gen 5? Because you and especially Darkness kept saying how this decision was the best for us. I'm certainly interested in hearing how not being able to play competitive gen 5 is going to be so much better than being able to easily play competitive gen 5. I was also wondering how you know what is best for the entire community of Pokemon Online players, most of whom you have never met or even spoken to, better than they do.

I say arbitrarily because no one has given any good reason for the removal of 5th gen. Is it because you want us to play the "real games"? If it is, then this doesn't help anything at all. It certainly doesn't give us access to the games any sooner. The only thing it does is advocate us downloading illegal ROMs. I was totally happy with the simulator as it was, but if I won't have access to any 5th gen battling until spring then I'll probably get a ROM just to hold me over until a working simulator is out.

This brings me to another point. For a lot of your community, competitive battling IS the real "magic" of a new pokemon game. The massive amount of new additions and the total change in the metagame is the real draw, and the in-game features are just a bonus. People that were primarily interested in the "real game" have, for the most part, already imported or downloaded ROMs.

But maybe that's not the reason that you took the server down. Maybe you were worried about competition with Pokemon Lab. But if that were the case, then having a working 5th gen months before any other simulator would be your biggest advantage. Besides, there's no reason that you have to compete with them anyway because you are both free software. So that doesn't make sense.

Legal issues with Game Freak / Nintendo is definitely not something to worry about. Shoddy Battle existed for years, and NetBattle was around before that. Nintendo never came after them. And the only reason Nintendo came after Serebii and some other sites was because they were using sprites ripped from a ROM before the game was even released, so that doesn't make sense.

Maybe you just don't want to work on it anymore? But wait, this contradicts what you said in the first post. You said that you decided long before the implementation of gen 5 was finished that you didn't want for it to be available until after the US release. Yet you continued to work on it until it was almost 100% complete, and then took it away. If you were "just tired", you would have stopped right then. Furthermore, if you were "just tired", then you could have easily passed the job on to your community that was already working on it so hard and had them finish it. This explanation doesn't make sense either.

Maybe you wanted to focus more on other metagames, such as first gen battling, and you were afraid that the fancy new feature might distract everyone from working on it for you? It seems to me that if 5th gen was implemented then in the surge of new users that you would probably get at least enough to work on what you want for the simulator. Besides, this still doesn't explain why you would wait until 5th gen was almost finished to tell us this, or why you would mark the time of the English release of B/W as particularly important for your goals.

Maybe it's something deeper than any of these explanations. Maybe you don't feel that we as a community deserve it? If this is the case, then what behavior in the community are you basing this judgement off of? Why haven't you mentioned this before? Are you sure that everyone in the community is responsible, including the people that spent so much time and energy to make this simulator work (and if no, why would simple bans not be effective)? How does taking away 5th gen help with this problem? On top of all these questions that would need answering, this still wouldn't explain why you even began working on 5th gen in the first place, if it's true that you had the intention of neglecting to implement it from the beginning.

In a quick summary:
There are no drawbacks to us (the community) having a working 5th gen, and no benefits for us for not having one. Meanwhile, by losing 5th gen we suffer a great loss.

You suffer no drawbacks from implementing the almost fully functional 5th gen, and gain nothing by refusing to implement it.

I really can't think of any reason for you to pull 5th gen off the client. You haven't provided any valid justification for your actions, so your motive appears to be arbitrary. And that hurts us a lot.

Regardless of your motive, you still don't have an explanation for why you did things the way you did. You intentionally lied to and manipulated your entire community in order to gain full control of a software you're distributing freely, in order to keep everyone away from a feature that you're creating for them to use? That doesn't make sense at all. If you weren't planning on implementing it until after the US release of B/W, then why did you finish it now and give almost everyone a chance to play it instead of not work on it at all? Lying to us like that really hurts our trust in you as a developer and as a leader. That seems like quite a waste of time. It's also really disrespectful to the people that spent so much time getting this simulator to work. How do you think they feel being left in the dark like that? Do you think that they still want to work with you, when you might take all of their hard work and throw it all away?

If you'd like to explain yourself, feel free. I'm sure many of us are waiting to hear what you have to say. Because as it stands, your motives are poorly justified and the process by which you carried them out are hurtful and uncalled for.

 

[Wave⁂]

Nintendo doesn't need a legit reason to go after PO. They can do whatever they want because they're ****ing Nintendo. People WILL listen to their empty threats.

 

[Cease Tick]

Nintendo doesn't need a legit reason to go after PO. They can do whatever they want because they're ****ing Nintendo. People WILL listen to their empty threats.

Yeah, except Nintendo never went after Coyotte, he said so himself. They wouldn't have any reason to go after him either, it's almost free advertising. Keep in mind that Nintendo has never gone after a simulator before, why would they change things now?

Anyway, you guys should check out what Coyotte said in this irc log, it's pretty unbelievable.

 

[Wrath`]

Wow, PO had the chance to eliminate Shoddy(Maybe not eliminate) and it goes and does this, wow. Just wow.

 

[Wave⁂]

Yeah, except Nintendo never went after Coyotte, he said so himself.

It'd be worse to have Gen V up for a day and then have it yanked away by a lawsuit. Preemptively avoiding a lawsuit is ideal.

They wouldn't have any reason to go after him either, it's almost free advertising. Keep in mind that Nintendo has never gone after a simulator before, why would they change things now?

John Doe: Oh, they're making new Pokemon games? Cool, I remember battling competitively back in the day, maybe I should check it out.
[logs onto Pokemon Online]
John Doe: WHAT THE **** IS THIS **** ANOTHER FIRE / FIGHTING STARTER HOLY **** 147 BASE ATTACK WHAT THE **** SHADOW TAG OH MY ****ING GOD OVER-DESIGNED DIGIMON

 

[Cease Tick]

It'd be worse to have Gen V up for a day and then have it yanked away by a lawsuit. Preemptively avoiding a lawsuit is ideal.John Doe: Oh, they're making new Pokemon games? Cool, I remember battling competitively back in the day, maybe I should check it out.
[logs onto Pokemon Online]
John Doe: WHAT THE **** IS THIS **** ANOTHER FIRE / FIGHTING STARTER HOLY **** 147 BASE ATTACK WHAT THE **** SHADOW TAG OH MY ****ING GOD OVER-DESIGNED DIGIMON

Remember, there isn't any precedent for Nintendo going after simulators. Shoddy had 4th gen implemented before it was out in the US and they didn't get sued. Why is this any different? Besides, your John Doe example doesn't work because a large majority of the people playing 5th gen on simulators already know all about the new pokemon anyway. Even if one loser gets on and decides to not purchase B/W because of their experience on the simulator, the number of people that are going to go "oh my gosh 5th gen is so much better than 4th gen I must have it" is going to more than even it out.

 

[Wrath`]

It'd be worse to have Gen V up for a day and then have it yanked away by a lawsuit. Preemptively avoiding a lawsuit is ideal.John Doe: Oh, they're making new Pokemon games? Cool, I remember battling competitively back in the day, maybe I should check it out.
[logs onto Pokemon Online]
John Doe: WHAT THE **** IS THIS **** ANOTHER FIRE / FIGHTING STARTER HOLY **** 147 BASE ATTACK WHAT THE **** SHADOW TAG OH MY ****ING GOD OVER-DESIGNED DIGIMON

John doe can also head to Seribii and do the same thing, or Pokebeach or wherever to see stats and such.

It is just a battle simulator, not the game, not even 50% of the game.

 

[Wave⁂]

Remember, there isn't any precedent for Nintendo going after simulators. Shoddy had 4th gen implemented before it was out in the US and they didn't get sued. Why is this any different?

Pirating is more common
More complaints about ****ty Pokemon designs
Giant changes in the form of Dream World abilities
Nintendo is greedier

Besides, your John Doe example doesn't work because a large majority of the people playing 5th gen on simulators already know all about the new pokemon anyway.

Yes, but not all.

Even if one loser gets on and decides to not purchase B/W because of their experience on the simulator, the number of people that are going to go "oh my gosh 5th gen is so much better than 4th gen I must have it" is going to more than even it out.

More like "well, this is pretty cool, but no reason to buy the game because I already have it". Also, you have no proof that it would even out.

John doe can also head to Seribii and do the same thing, or Pokebeach or wherever to see stats and such.

It is just a battle simulator, not the game, not even 50% of the game.

Pretty sure Serebii and Pokebeach got Cease and Desist letters. I mean, the Dittos.

 

[Wrath`]

Seribii and Co did get those, but they have since put the sprites back up, and the stats and misc info was never removed.

 

[Wave⁂]

Seribii and Co did get those, but they have since put the sprites back up, and the stats and misc info was never removed.

Yeah, they called Nintendo's bluff, which was a risky move.

 

[Cease Tick]

Pirating is more common
More complaints about ****ty Pokemon designs
Giant changes in the form of Dream World abilities
Nintendo is greedier

Yes, but not all.

More like "well, this is pretty cool, but no reason to buy the game because I already have it". Also, you have no proof that it would even out.

Pretty sure Serebii and Pokebeach got Cease and Desist letters. I mean, the Dittos.

Pirating is irrelevant, complaints about design and dream world abilities would happen anyway (not to mention there were a lot more complaints when D/P came out than there have been for B/W), and Nintendo being greedier alone won't get it taken down.

Most of the content in pokemon is in the actual game and not the simulator. Battling is a relatively small part of why pokemon sells. Most players buy pokemon for the whole experience, you know catching a team and beating the gyms and whatnot.

If I don't have the proof to say that it will even out, then you certainly don't have the proof to say that it won't. That's been the basis of quite a bit of your argument; the one guy that tries the simulator and then decides that he doesn't like fifth gen. If I can have my guy that decides to buy the game because of the simulator then you can't have yours either.

Serebii and Pokebeach got Cease (heheh) and Desist letters for using sprites Melkor ripped from a ROM before the game had even been released. If you check those sites now you'll see that all the sprites are back.

 

[Wave⁂]

Pirating is irrelevant

No

complaints about design and dream world abilities would happen anyway (not to mention there were a lot more complaints when D/P came out than there have been for B/W)

There would be much more complaints with PO showing off the sprites. Also, I call bull**** on more complains in DP.

and Nintendo being greedier alone won't get it taken down.

Do you read your own posts? This is Nintendo.

Most of the content in pokemon is in the actual game and not the simulator. Battling is a relatively small part of why pokemon sells. Most players buy pokemon for the whole experience, you know catching a team and beating the gyms and whatnot.

If I buy the game, I'm hacking myself eight badges and 999 of each item.

If I don't have the proof to say that it will even out, then you certainly don't have the proof to say that it won't. That's been the basis of quite a bit of your argument; the one guy that tries the simulator and then decides that he doesn't like fifth gen. If I can have my guy that decides to buy the game because of the simulator then you can't have yours either.

We can have our guys, but your argument that there are more of your guys than mine is completely baseless.

Serebii and Pokebeach got Cease (heheh) and Desist letters for using sprites Melkor ripped from a ROM before the game had even been released. If you check those sites now you'll see that all the sprites are back.

Well of course. The point still stands that Nintendo did something, meaning there is a chance that they'll do it again.

 

[Cease Tick]

No

There would be much more complaints with PO showing off the sprites. Also, I call bull**** on more complains in DP.

Do you read your own posts? This is Nintendo.

If I buy the game, I'm hacking myself eight badges and 999 of each item.

We can have our guys, but your argument that there are more of your guys than mine is completely baseless.

Well of course. The point still stands that Nintendo did something, meaning there is a chance that they'll do it again.

Why is pirating relevant? It's actual copy of the game, and a simulator is very much not. They're two different things. Why should the amount of pirating affect whether or not Nintendo decides to sue PO? Besides, pirating was around when D/P came out, and Nintendo didn't do anything to Shoddy. While there may (or may not, you don't know) be more pirating now, pirating was still an

Spoiler

Isshu

in both times.

What's the difference between the sprites being on a simulator and on a website?

I would definitely say that there was more complaining for D/P.
"Too many prevos/evos of old pokemon!"
"So overdesigned with all the spikes and stuff"
"Where are all the fire-types!"
"15 legendaries!!!1! And all of the trio is the same type!?"
Either this, or it's all opinions and neither of us can say which gen there was more complaining in anyway. Besides, people would still complain without a simulator.

You don't have any proof that Nintendo is any greedier than they've ever been. Besides, we haven't established that Nintendo is even losing any money, because we don't know how many of our respective guys there are.

Cool story bro, and most people still buy for the in-game.

Yep, which is why I didn't mention that part in my last post.

Nintendo has done a lot of somethings. The issue with Serebii and friends was mostly ROMs, which is not the same issue at all. Besides, suppose he did keep the server up and he did end up getting a C&D letter. In that case he can just shut down the server and be justified in doing so. Shutting down the server now is just pointless.

 

[Wave⁂]

If there was no PO, I'd buy the game. As it stands, I probably won't. Whether you like it or not, there are people out there like me. More than one.

I can agree that it's impossible to judge the amount of complaining. However, the more content out there about BW, the more complaining there will be.

And I go back to my original statement: it would be worse for gen V to be up for only a day and then taken down then for it to be never up. Worse for those who play on the server and for those running PO.

 

[Cease Tick]

If there was no PO, I'd buy the game. As it stands, I probably won't. Whether you like it or not, there are people out there like me. More than one.

I can agree that it's impossible to judge the amount of complaining. However, the more content out there about BW, the more complaining there will be.

And I go back to my original statement: it would be worse for gen V to be up for only a day and then taken down then for it to be never up. Worse for those who play on the server and for those running PO.

Yes there are people like you, but there are also people that are going to end up buying 5th gen who otherwise wouldn't specifically because they were exposed to it through PO. We've already established that trying to compare the size of each group is baseless assumptions. Besides, if this is the case, then what is the difference between Coyotte releasing 5th gen now and him releasing it after the release of B/W?

More content doesn't necessarily mean more complaining, we can't know that for sure.

Why do you say it would be worse to have it for a day then lose it then never have it at all? Better to have loved and lost etc. etc. Also opinions. Besides, Coyotte just did almost exactly that by suddenly getting rid of fifth gen anyway.

Once again, why would Nintendo suddenly begin to go after simulators when it hasn't in the past? it seems like precedent is on my side.

 

[M.K]

I agree with a single poster in particular in that thread.
The material (being, Pokemon Black and White) has already been released to the public. Americans have the opportunity to import the game TO America. Any other country, presumably, can do the exact same thing. Thus, the game is worldwide. Now. Despite only being in the Japanese language, it can be played around the globe.

Thus, what exactly does waiting for the USA/English release accomplish for the creators of Pokemon Online? How does this change anything at all in terms of legality/copyright/availability? If they were doing something wrong by releasing the information on a simulator, how will it suddenly be right once the game is in English?

Regardless, this is literally the nail in the coffin for Pokemon Online. There is almost no reason to use it. I have no intention of playing Gen 1, like they started in lieu of Gen 5.

 

[UltiMario]

If they really don't realize that 95% of the Pokemon community has a negative response to this idea, then I guess it's either back to Pokemon lab, or us trying to take an old Gen V server and attempt to update it to a current status.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'm wondering if they're secretly working on letting you see your opponent's team and picking your lead before battling.

 

[kirbyraeg]

So uh, you guys.

let's talk about theorymon now.

 

[Wave⁂]

So how about them Zoroaks, dress up as a Doryuzuu and molest some Skarmory.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I still don't actually know how that ability works. Does it impersonate the Pokémon in the slot behind it?

 

[UltiMario]

I believe it's the one in the 6th Slot of your team.

Which may require some shuffling to get right.

 

[PowerBomb]

Coyotte released the source, didn't he? /tr/ocketry has it up right now.

 

[Cease Tick]

Coyotte released the source, didn't he? /tr/ocketry has it up right now.

Yes he did; I'm ****ting bricks right now.

 

[Moozle]

How do you get the download for that server?

 

[Wrath`]

So are we working on putting it on Machamps Pants?

 

[PowerBomb]

Just download the new client and install it. It's that simple.

Playing it right now on /tr/ocketry. Well, more like looking around and stuff. Not glitchy at all, from what I've seen.

 

[Wrath`]

So is there a newer updated 5th gen? Or is the same one that was originally leaked? I have the original leaked version and just battled Moozle, so I guess I am fine.

 

[PowerBomb]

Yeah. Anyone want to battle with me? I can battle right now... but which server are you guys on?

 

[UltiMario]

tr server:

Spoiler

I might just happen to be good at this Gen V thing