infinite on Wario (yes the word is used correctly)

[saviorslegacy]

I need to test to see who else this works on.... but it looks like the people we can grab release DACUS on are screwed... or at least Wario.

THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED ON WARIO! No doubt about it.
Now before I continue I need to introduce you to Sheiks pivot grab:
Sheiks pivot grab= at least twice the range of her normal one. On top of that it has a hidden grab box.
When you pivot grab the range is like that of a cone. It starts small around her hands and gets very lerge at the end of the grab range (basically it is as high as the tipper part of the USmash). That said this has potential.

You can do this combo:
grab> pummel> grab release> dash left/right> pivot grab> repeat
Since this combo use's grab release and pummels it is a true infinite. Oh... and you can perform it on the BF platform so don't even say "just ban FD".


Now I believe this will work on MK... but I am uncertain.
For MK I think it is this:
grab> grab release> fox trot> fox trot + pivot grab

I have no idea if it actually work though. I was able to do it once... but I'm not sure if it was my testers error or not. So right now it is just listed as a MAYBE. In other words... I need someone to test this as well. BTW.... I also can't fox trot every time out of grab release.
just as a note.... it is possible on every stage but VERY limited on YI and BF (no duh)

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, wow, you just discovered this or something? Half the cast has something like this on us already. If you grab us below 50%, expect a ground break when you do your damage pummel, and then you have to hope there are no platforms above you to **** this up.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Lol, wow, you just discovered this or something? Half the cast has something like this on us already. If you grab us below 50%, expect a ground break when you do your damage pummel, and then you have to hope there are no platforms above you to **** this up.

Do half do this at 0?

 

[SuSa]

Phantom, most people don't check pivot grabs and the like when looking for grab release combos. Also they can go for grab release > usmash until you are above 50% to pummel, so that's a bull**** argument. You Wario's have a ton of grab release bull**** that happens to you. Saying % based things just makes me LAUGH because the opponent has other options then to pummel for damage. Such as letting you grab break, then using an aerial, tilt, and sometimes a smash.

But also read my last sentence...

Also, using this, the Sheik can make you go closer to the edge, allowing them to SH Fair (possibly) you off and go for a gimp. They don't have to pummel.

Also good luck grabbing Wario....

 

[saviorslegacy]

Also, using this, the Sheik can make you go closer to the edge, allowing them to SH Fair (possibly) you off and go for a gimp. They don't have to pummel.

I'll have to look into that.

Also good luck grabbing Wario....

This is true.....
However... this has a IC ring to it. "1 grab= death"

 

[SuSa]

These grab release things always seem a lot harder for me to time then the IC chaingrabs. Also the IC's have setups to get their grabs (using desynchs) so I never understood comparisons to their grabs.

Also because the pivot grab makes you slide a bit (or it can) you can keep grab release > dash > pivot grab + small slide until you are at the edge. Then dash > pivot grab (no slide. I've noticed there is slide and no slide pivot grabs depending how you do them. Then there is BOOST pivot grabs...) so that the Wario is facing away, off the stage. Grab release > fair > work Sheiks sexy magic.

Also B-reverse needle gimping Pit's who decide to try and go underneath a stage is WAY to sexy. So is wall cling > jump off > b-reverse needle. Sheik is my favorite VS Pit matchup because you can get super-sexy gimps.

(Also IIRC needle > Wario if he's on his bike... so fair > fair > needle if he uses bike > nair > second jump > recover)

 

[stealth3654]

I doubt you can do this to MK. When grab releasing MK, you barely have enough time to get a running grab in before he regains control of himself.

Also, I'm not sure but I think if you grab release Wario on Smashville, he pops up high enough to land on the platform.

 

[PhantomX]

SuSa, that's exactly why percent base **** MATTERS. It's so hard to grab a Wario... you think if he sees you try the pummel > grab release > regrab and he breaks out he's gonna let you grab him again before he's in kill percentage?

 

[SOVAman]

Wario doesn't get grabbed lol

 

[saviorslegacy]

These grab release things always seem a lot harder for me to time then the IC chaingrabs. Also the IC's have setups to get their grabs (using desynchs) so I never understood comparisons to their grabs.

Desynchs can be messed up, u-tilt/f-tilt/jab/Bair/Fair/weak sex kick> grab is pretty hard to beat.

(Also IIRC needle > Wario if he's on his bike... so fair > fair > needle if he uses bike > nair > second jump > recover)

*you will die

 

[SuSa]

SuSa, that's exactly why percent base **** MATTERS. It's so hard to grab a Wario... you think if he sees you try the pummel > grab release > regrab and he breaks out he's gonna let you grab him again before he's in kill percentage?

Wario's never let themselves be grabbed anyways, but it does happen so the argument is null.

Although out of the entire cast, I'd say Wario is one of the best at playing the "Don't get grabbed" card... but he still gets grabbed

 

[PhantomX]

Wario's never let themselves be grabbed anyways, but it does happen so the argument is null.

Although out of the entire cast, I'd say Wario is one of the best at playing the "Don't get grabbed" card... but he still gets grabbed

OBV it happens. And if it does happen, and you try this thing to early and he breaks out, you wasted a ton of damage that you could've done.

I don't really see what you're getting all fussy about. I said it's not a 0 - death b/c it's easy to escape it early, and that you have to hope you'r ein a good position at hte same time.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Why do I get the feeling this is just as useless as the Salt combo or whatever it is.

Sorry, but Sheik doesn't have a chain grab.

Considering that the amount of time it takes for wario to be released is a complete variable, good luck timing the grab release more than twice if you're lucky.

p.s, saviors, i tried this a few months ago. I forget the reasoning, but we settled on the fact that it didn't work. I guess it's time to go around the circle again...

 

[tocador]

Even if its hard to do, it dosent mean its impossible U.u

 

[PhantomX]

You should have plenty of time to do the pivot grab on reaction, but you should get someone to test what the frame window is on it. I think Ike gets like 2 frames or something ridiculous like that on his.

 

[saviorslegacy]

OBV it happens. And if it does happen, and you try this thing to early and he breaks out, you wasted a ton of damage that you could've done.

I don't really see what you're getting all fussy about. I said it's not a 0 - death b/c it's easy to escape it early, and that you have to hope you'r ein a good position at hte same time.

How are you gonna escape it? You gonna SDI this? lol
You can't do squat. A grab release cannot be DI'd.
You can pray though... that might help...
Oh wait... are you hoping you can ground break? All we need to do is learn when the soonest you can ground break is and we are set.

Why do I get the feeling this is just as useless as the Salt combo or whatever it is.

Sorry, but Sheik doesn't have a chain grab.

Considering that the amount of time it takes for wario to be released is a complete variable, good luck timing the grab release more than twice if you're lucky.

p.s, saviors, i tried this a few months ago. I forget the reasoning, but we settled on the fact that it didn't work. I guess it's time to go around the circle again...

*Saltus Combo
*yes she does
*you have 30 frames of waiting time
In my personal experience I find that the lag of the grab release to mess me up. So this argument is void.
Once you get the timing down it will be as easy as grab release> hyphen USmash
*link plz... I want to see where its fault is.

 

[SuSa]

OBV it happens. And if it does happen, and you try this thing to early and he breaks out, you wasted a ton of damage that you could've done.

I don't really see what you're getting all fussy about. I said it's not a 0 - death b/c it's easy to escape it early, and that you have to hope you'r ein a good position at hte same time.

Ok, how about we call it a 50-Death combo?

In theory, depending how fast Wario can mash, this is a 0-death combo. In reality, a good Wario should be able to break out relatively early (sometimes almost instantly) I forget the formula for the grab release (something like 30 frames + 5 frames per % - 5 frames per input or something but far more complicated. I'll go and try to find it... then we just need to know how many frames Sheik's pummel is, and assuming the Wario can input 1 input per frame we can find the earliest % this can be started at assuming perfection)

The chances of a good Wario getting grabbed is already slim. I normally don't grab Wario until he's in higher %'s anyways. (Talking 60-130%. That ***** never dies)

 

[Steeler]

you can easily pivot grab on reaction, you have half a second.

 

[PhantomX]

You should also check about that sliding stuff Susa mentioned, b/c if you're sliding around when regrabbing Wario, it makes it more likely that you end up under a platform thus killing your infinite before it even starts.

And yes, I'm talking about ground breaking. If you grab at too low percents it's easy to ground break on a pummel, which means you're forced to either go for a regular aerial or just regrab Wario without doing anything.

 

[SuSa]

Phantom, the slide is optional.

You can pivot grab the "old fashioned way" by tapping back+grab. But I pivot grab with C-stick back+grab, which almost ALWAYS makes me slide (I do this because grab range is greater for most of my chars) however if I don't want to slide, I hit back+grab instead.

Then theres boost pivot grabbing (Dash attack > back+grab) which is....impossible with Sheik (at least for me) but I can still slide using my c-stick back+grab method.

It's optional. so no need to test it for ruining the infinite. I was simply saying to test it because we can move closer to the edge with it (on FD for example) to setup for a gimp.

Also search isn't working for me so I can't find the formula. I do think it is:

60 frames + 2 frames per % - 5 frames per input.

So at 50%, you have:

60 frames + 2x50 - 5x = 60 + 100 - 5x = 160 - 5x

So 160 - 5x, assuming you give 1 input per frame (which IIRC except certain grabs (DK's cargo, and I think Lucario's side-B) is basically impossible, I think 3-5 frames is actuality.. but w/e)

so 160/5 = 32

That gives 32 frames before you break. I think 1 pummel is probably around 20~ frames. Which is why 1 pummel is basically guarenteed at 50%.

It's more likely to start around 40-45%~ however.

I wish I had the precise formula -_- I'm doing this from memory....

 

[MrEh]

Wario doesn't get grabbed on Spear Pillar.

 

[Metatitan]

Lmao this is coming from a yoshi main, pummel infinites really aren't usually worth it. It's just easier to up smash from grab release instead.

 

[Zankoku]

Stop researching dumb **** that isn't even worth trying in a real tournament match.

 

[SuSa]

Stop researching dumb **** that isn't even worth trying in a real tournament match.

Translation:

"Apparently Ice Climbers can chaingrab by throwing to eachother. The timing is pretty hard, so its probably not worth doing in a real tournament match" ...oh wait

Real Translation:

OMFG apparently after the Wario is past 50% we can rack up damage until he's within KO % of a tipped usmash without him being able to do jack ****! Although that would be a bit slow.

How hard is the regrab to time?

/end translation

 

[illinialex24]

Translation:

"Apparently King Dedede can chain grab most character by throwing them down, running, and then re-grabbing them again. Its not worth it however because it will never happen"

Oh wait.....

Real Translation:

Ignore the difficulty level, if it works, it works.

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, let's consider first the most common starters that are available.
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium

Battlefield: Given the structure of the stage, there is exactly one practical spot to perform this in - the bottom center section. Good luck luring Wario there for a grab more than once in a single set, if at all.

Final Destination: Probably the only stage you can perform grab release stuff from anywhere.

Smashville: Wario players can time their breakouts to attempt to escape to the moving platform. You'll be lucky to get more than 10% in damage with this "infinite."

Yoshi's Island - That top platform screws you over at almost all times.

Lylat Cruise - If you somehow manage a grab in one of the two viable sections, chances are the ship will tilt and end it anyway.

Pokémon Stadium - The only stage besides Final Destination where extended grab release stuff is actually viable. Still not damage-efficient enough to warrant doing it with the knowledge of stage transforms screwing it up.

 

[illinialex24]

Notice, Ankoku, that oftentimes, when people play, they don't just play 1 game on a starter. I know you may not have heard of this, but generally you get a counterpick as well. IE, you can choose a stage that might just make this easier for you to use, like, lets say, theoretically, Final Destination.... So you can use this in at least 1/3 games in a set, and that may just be the difference between losing and winning.

 

[SuSa]

Battlefield: Given the structure of the stage, there is exactly one practical spot to perform this in - the bottom center section. Good luck luring Wario there for a grab more than once in a single set, if at all.

Center plus just outside of the platforms facing away from stage. Also on top of platforms (the latter shouldn't happen...ever....)

Final Destination: Probably the only stage you can perform grab release stuff from anywhere.
Ok.

Smashville: Wario players can time their breakouts to attempt to escape to the moving platform. You'll be lucky to get more than 10% in damage with this "infinite."

Ok, so it's 10% on Smashville (maybe more, maybe less). Was that 10% worth it? Every % is worth it.

Yoshi's Island - That top platform screws you over at almost all times.

Key word: almost and thats only the center. Since it tilts, you may be able to do it for a while when its fully tilted on one side. You can also do it while not under the platform. And again, while on the platform (unlikely)

Lylat Cruise - If you somehow manage a grab in one of the two viable sections, chances are the ship will tilt and end it anyway.

No argument here.

Pokémon Stadium - The only stage besides Final Destination where extended grab release stuff is actually viable. Still not damage-efficient enough to warrant doing it with the knowledge of stage transforms screwing it up.

What if you get a grab just after a transformation? You'll be able to do it for a while. (Also isn't this time based anyways? So keep track of the time? to know if you should usmash instead of regrab.....)

Replies in red.

 

[Zankoku]

The 10% is definitely not worth it. You get 7% from a straight fthrow, no pummels. You get 13% if you grab release into nair. If you grab ANY character near the ledge, not just Wario, you should count your blessings because it's not a common occurrence.

Seriously, Sheik's grab game is entirely speed. She doesn't have grab range and her pivot grab isn't amazing like it is with some other characters. The only things you should consider are efficient options from those grabs that don't involve dealing 5% every 10 seconds.

 

[illinialex24]

Seriously, Sheik's grab game is entirely speed. She doesn't have grab range and her pivot grab isn't amazing like it is with some other characters. The only things you should consider are efficient options from those grabs that don't involve dealing 5% every 10 seconds.

Or you can whittle down the clock quickly without stalling, Sheik is fast and so since you can get them to a high percent, you can use this to gradually lower the clock and continue it to 300% before you kill, and waste a lot of the clock so you are in a position of power. IE, use time effectively, rushing through everything isn't smart.

 

[Zankoku]

Rushing isn't smart, but neither is not making efficient use of time against Wario's own Down+B clock.

 

[SuSa]

The 10% is definitely not worth it. You get 7% from a straight fthrow, no pummels. You get 13% if you grab release into nair. If you grab ANY character near the ledge, not just Wario, you should count your blessings because it's not a common occurrence.

Seriously, Sheik's grab game is entirely speed. She doesn't have grab range and her pivot grab isn't amazing like it is with some other characters. The only things you should consider are efficient options from those grabs that don't involve dealing 5% every 10 seconds.

So I heard you can do something called pummeling, then throwing.... I haven't tried it yet, but I heard it exists.

But your right, 10% then 7% from an fthrow isn't worth it. I should just get 7% from the fthrow. Also I can't pummel, stop, then grab release nair.

Ya know...

 

[Zankoku]

If you pummel and throw then you're no longer running on a grab release. Which, frankly, is what I do most of the time unless Wario is at 100% or over (minimum % for guaranteed usmash KO).

 

[illinialex24]

Rushing isn't smart, but neither is not making efficient use of time against Wario's own Down+B clock.

True, but thats an entire 2 minute window, and if he already has it or is more than a minute into it, a stock is much better than playing fast. Plus this is guaranteed damage, go for the stock if possible and be confident in your ability to avoid/shield his fart.

One good move that isn't guaranteed isn't a good enough reason against moving slowly.

 

[SuSa]

If you pummel and throw then you're no longer running on a grab release. Which, frankly, is what I do most of the time unless Wario is at 100% or over (minimum % for guaranteed usmash KO).

You gave the example, not me. But you know what you can do as well....

Pummel, GRAB RELEASE, Usmash.

It adds a nice 4-10%, which may be the difference between living with DI or death.

How about you admit the 10% is worth it? Because..true fact.... all guaranteed damage is worth it.

 

[illinialex24]

Or if you don't like staling U-smash, lets say any other move that would work, IE, so it still gets good damage.

 

[Zankoku]

You gave the example, not me. But you know what you can do as well....

Pummel, GRAB RELEASE, Usmash.

It adds a nice 4-10%, which may be the difference between living with DI or death.

How about you admit the 10% is worth it? Because..true fact.... all guaranteed damage is worth it.

I've always felt that pummeling was worth it. If you got the impression that I didn't, then I'll tell you right now that I do. Whenever I grab, I always confirm with one or two pummels, look at the %, and make my decision then.

What I feel isn't worth it is grab, pummels, grab release regrab. That 10%? It's a rough estimate based on three iterations of two pummels each. Yeah....

 

[PhantomX]

I can't wait for people to mess up the funky timing on this so I can waft them :D

 

[illinialex24]

If you can infinite it, its worthwhile. I mean seriously, people would still down throw infinite with King Dedede even if each throw did as much damage as an Ice Climber's Ice Block. Once you trapped someone so they can't escape, and you can get a stock or put them in a terrible position with a lot of the clock gone or do both, its worthwhile. Plus, your gonna stale your pummel a lot so everything you have is fresh for out of grab options.

 

[SuSa]

I've always felt that pummeling was worth it. If you got the impression that I didn't, then I'll tell you right now that I do. Whenever I grab, I always confirm with one or two pummels, look at the %, and make my decision then.

What I feel isn't worth it is grab, pummels, grab release regrab. That 10%? It's a rough estimate based on three iterations of two pummels each. Yeah....

So yeah.... if I wasn't on Smashville/Lylat, and I had the opportunity. 3 iterations is nothing.... I'd abuse it til he's in KO range.

We are not saying use this all of the time.

We are saying to know that you can use this so when the opportunity arrives (as its bound to eventually) you can use it.


EDIT:

Hey Phantom. Practice makes perfect. Difficulty is not a matter, as someone will master it.

At least (unlike IC mains) we don't need to memorize 39 different timings, and different timings based off of % and throw...