Inactivity: Jigglypuff's Anime Club

[teluoborg]

If MK was Jiggs' most problematic matchup and if she didn't have enough space to run away on regular stage she'd probably go up.

But neither is true so no, if anything she'll go lower from the increased number of Snakes and Marths.

 

[SoulPech]

I've been trying for YEARS to make Puff go up by one...JUST ONE...on the tier list.

I was actually close by getting her back to 4th worst character and I tried super hard to get her on the 5th lowest. Honestly, if they had Brinstar and RC legal, I think she would have a chance.

Real talk: The only person that has beaten me on Brinstar is Ally. I'm like 20+ and 1 on that stage.

 

[Osennecho]

^^^^^^^^Pretty much sums up my thoughts. And in regards to banning MK it was more so that the only way these stages come back is MK gets banned.

 

[Jigglymaster]

True, I kinda gave up trying to get Jigglypuff higher on the tier list after they started banning all these stages. Our efforts don't mean much if we can't even get her to NOT go down and let Link surpass her.

Lets face it though, having these stages didn't mean much because it still meant Jigglypuff had to win on a neutral or their counterpick.

 

[TM_icecream]

when I get out of pools at WHOBO she'll go up

 

[teluoborg]

I feel the same way about Jiggs's tier placement as I feel for Falcon's : of course she has good character traits, but everyone is just straight better.

If her Nair or Jab was frame 3 she could be higher but eh.

 

[TM_icecream]

She's better than link
She's better than falcon for sure
She may be better than bowser
I stop there

 

[SoulPech]

She's better than link
She's better than Falcon
Bowser may be stretching it...not sure about that one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She's second best after MK.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nah shes not better than Bowser, but I DO think shes better than Link/Falcon, but thats where Id stop. I think she's 5th worst at best.

 

[RyeJew]

Relevant to this board...

Who's that Pokémon?

 

[teluoborg]

Also I fail to see how Jiggs can be better than Falcon if she doesn't live longer, doesn't kill earlier, doesn't rack damage faster and doesn't have better zoning tools.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wonder what the tier list would look like if we only looked at longevity, KO power, damage-racking and zoning ability; rather than looking at how a character performs in each match-up individually and creating a weighted average MU ratio based on that, and then ordering those averages from best to worst.

Fox is faster than MK, racks up damage faster than MK, KOs earlier than MK and lives roughly the same amount of time in most match-ups, so I guess we can put him in SS Tier.

 

[SoulPech]

I...agree with Grim for the first time... in fact. I'm... "LIKING" His post

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She's second best after MK.

If you didn't like and agree with this post, you're doing something wrong.

 

[SoulPech]

sorry. I don't like to people whoring up their likes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Feel free to just agree with it, if that helps.

 

[SoulPech]

Grim,

you picture scares me.

 

[teluoborg]

I wonder what the tier list would look like if we only looked at longevity, KO power, damage-racking and zoning ability; rather than looking at how a character performs in each match-up individually and creating a weighted average MU ratio based on that, and then ordering those averages from best to worst.

Yeah well according to this technique Falcon is still above Jiggs
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v2-0.316173/

Other tentatives ?

 

[SoulPech]

Do...
Do you into this thread just to troll?

Also, i was bored and I decided to add up the MU totals for CF, Jiggs, and Link. I didn't add the changes for CF and Link for the next MU, but I found this interesting;

cf
-3 ; 5
-2 ; 17
-1; 8
0; 6
1; 1
total: -56

link
-4; 1
-3; 5
-2; 20
-1; 6
0; 3
1; 2
total: -57

jiggs
-3; 7
-2; 17
-1; 8
0; 4
1; 0
2; 1
total: -61

I think cf and link had some negative impacts on the MUs but technically we are the 3rd worse ;~;

 

[Osennecho]

^^^^Where is Puff's -4 vs G&W SP?

 

[SoulPech]

In the next MU chart, PUff: GW will go down to -3.

other changes are:

Mario to 0
Ike to -1
ROB to -2 (discussing about moving to -1 even)
Lucas to -1

 

[Osennecho]

Ah..... Hmmmm... Not sure how I feel about that. TBH if the G&W knows the matchup I see a noticeable difference between that and Snake, Marth, Olimar. Forget the other -3s as those are the worst IMO. I played a G&W who knew the matchup on wifi the other day. Wasn't much lag at all got bopped. He went Snake, Marth, and MK after that. I won all of those. Just an example, but this tends to happen against almost everyone. I still feel -4 is justified. I suppose if I play purely aimed at a timeout it might be different and -3 worthy though.

 

[SoulPech]

The decision came based on what the metrics are

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable


We all know this Matchup is difficult because you can die so early, but there are still positives in this MU. As long as you know the ranges of his kill moves and use the baiting game, it's possible to win. Pound beats GnW's Fair. It's all about being patient. I mean, if you truly want a full description I can send you a PM

 

[Osennecho]

The decision came based on what the metrics are
I mean, if you truly want a full description I can send you a PM

If you'd be willing to send me a description of your outlook/guide to the matchup that would be wonderful because I completely gave up at this matchup and go Marth 100% of time if I meet a G&W. Meanwhile I've even CP'd from Marth to Puff against Snakes, Marths, an Olimar and MKs in a couple tournaments/MMs and done better then with my Marth/won.

In my mind/experiences the matchup fits close to unwinnable to the T. I do agree with the other changes to he matchup chart you said though.
Have you ever played a patient G&W?... Or a G&W that knows how to punish pound (unless perfectly executed). My problems aren't only missing a single tech from D-throw/them reading the tech and killing Puff at like 70 and then bucketing/corner DI'ing to twice that. Nor is it that rest is absurdly situational in this matchup but rather that a G&W that knows the matchup/doesn't decide to go full agro like a mental patient simply should NEVER lose to a Puff aside from SDs which should not happen in the first place. There's more but basically in my experience G&W completely shuts down like everything Puff has. If it plays patiently/chooses decent options it should win or win via timeout if the Puff is somehow still alive essentially every single time.

 

[teluoborg]

Do...
Do you into this thread just to troll?

I don't see how responding to correct someone with valid arguments and proofs to support them is trolling.

 

[SoulPech]

There's a difference between providing proof for education or for debate and providing proof in a snarky/condescending manner just to prove a point ; with the way information is presented, it can come off in a negative way "Yeah well according to this technique Falcon is still above Jiggs
" . What technique? The majority of us already know about the MU Chart and that CF has a better MU spread than Jiggs.

Thus, my question: Do you even use Puff? Do you visit this thread just to troll? I'm not trying to be rude and if I came off that way I apologize in advance.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Jiggs is better than Falcon imo for one big reason, SAFETY. Every time Falcon wants to do anything to anyone, hes forced to commit, while Jiggs can still poke and weave around without fully committing and still land hits and follow up.

 

[TM_icecream]

not to mention she can recover.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My current mentality with puff is to play so safe that the worst possible outcome for me is a 3-stock 0% time-out draw. Even with this ultra safe mentality, Puff can still pressure, which increases the chance of your opponent making a mistake whilst minimizing the chance of you making one. Therefore, all of Puff's match-ups are even or better, hence, second best after MK.

 

[Osennecho]

My current mentality with puff is to play so safe that the worst possible outcome for me is a 3-stock 0% time-out draw. Even with this ultra safe mentality, Puff can still pressure, which increases the chance of your opponent making a mistake whilst minimizing the chance of you making one. Therefore, all of Puff's match-ups are even or better, hence, second best after MK.

Ask SP whether or not Wario is better at this. Dat LOE1 ****.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've played Tedeth, who is arguably a higher calibre of wario than everyone else bar Abadango and Gluttony.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

double post

 

[SoulPech]

there's no vids of that guy. Also, LOE1 will time you out.

 

[Osennecho]

Does Tedeth aim for/excel at timeouts? Or time you out the next match purely because you timed him out? I'm not saying LOE1 is a top level Wario (he is very good no doubt) simply that he'd win the matchup you outlined/was making a joke/throwing salt at SP.

 

[SoulPech]

I almost beat him though...

 

[Z'zgashi]

The only problem with that theory is that ground speed is way faster than air speed, so even though jiggs has the 2nd or 3rd best air speed (I cant remember if shes faster or slower than wario in the air) shes still slower than like, half the cast's ground speed, so they can still close the gap and eventually punish some type of landing.

 

[SoulPech]

ayo,

I've played SweetBabyRay, who is arguably a higher calibre of Marth than everyone else bar Mikeneko. There's no vids of him, but it's completely true.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only problem with that theory is that ground speed is way faster than air speed, so even though jiggs has the 2nd or 3rd best air speed (I cant remember if shes faster or slower than wario in the air) shes still slower than like, half the cast's ground speed, so they can still close the gap and eventually punish some type of landing.

Nah, they can't. If they are, you need to get better with Parf.

ayo,

I've played SweetBabyRay, who is arguably a higher calibre of Marth than everyone else bar Mikeneko. There's no vids of him, but it's completely true.

Did you try searching on Youtube "ted wario"? I'd recommend it.
Even if there weren't videos of Ted, there are results lol

EDIT: Actually, Ted sucks, I deluded myself somehow. Nevermind me.

 

[Osennecho]

I almost beat him though...

Hence the salt.