Inactivity: Jigglypuff's Anime Club

[Grim Tuesday]

Against the people I play most often, they know the match-up well enough that if they have the lead and are playing properly, it's almost impossible to score a fair out of the blue.

I usually rely on a slow, baiting grind to land a KO move, or Rest.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Obviously there's more to how a character is played. If anything I was just describing Jigglypuff's flowchart.

Grim, do you solo Jigglypuff or do you have a 2nd main (not a secondary) to help back Jiggs up? If it's the former you should consider picking another character up. The main reason why I have so many accomplishments with Jigglypuff is that my Diddy Kong has allowed me to get far enough into tournaments to play and beat better players with Jigglypuff, because they don't expect a Jigglypuff player to get so far into the tournament and don't practice against her. There shouldn't be any shame in not being able to solo the 3rd worst character in the game. Think of it this way, want to solo Jigglypuff and get bodied in pools? Or would you rather wipe pools with a higher tier character like Diddy Kong, and save Jigglypuff for the games where Jigglypuff has an advantage against the opponent? Being good at Jigglypuff means you need to realize what matches are just not winnable for the puffball and vice versa. While I cannot survive without Diddy Kong, I can't survive without Jigglypuff either, as she has had to make comebacks in sets where my Diddy Kong had failed to win in the first match of the set. Both of them are my main characters, neither being the secondary.

The only reason why I wouldn't see myself as the best Jigglypuff player however, is that I haven't been very active in tournaments besides APEX.


As for my specific strategy, I usually like to play footsies with Jigglypuff in the beginning of the match, going for drill to throw combos, rotating throws to get the most damage out of my attacks. Depending on the character and player I'll go for a drill to rest combo once they get to killing percentage. Save my F-air and then get them into a situation where I can kill them at the lowest % possible. DON'T use Fair when they're onstage and don't have like over 130%. Even if you land the hit you risk staling it either because you didn't sweet spot it or didn't kill them, and after you lose that fresh f-air. It becomes a lot more difficult to kill your opponent. Get them off stage first, then land the hit as they try to recover.

Sure you can kill other ways but, because the rest of her moveset has such terrible KO power or is very easy to avoid (like rollout). You pretty much lost out on the stock battle unless somehow you've been avoiding trades the entire stock.

 

[Osennecho]

@Grim. I agree. It is so hard to actually get a kill with fair anymore against my friends even now that I utilize the move "correctly". I've concluded some matchups you are actually better off using it for damage/not caring, but I'm not entirely sure about which one's they are as it's also dependent upon your opponents matchup knowledge and play style.

*Edit* At tournaments I find it better to save it though simply due to a lack of matchup knowledge on the opponents part. Which makes this even harder to actually break down.

 

[Jigglymaster]

@Grim. I agree. It is so hard to actually get a kill with fair anymore against my friends even now that I utilize the move "correctly". I've concluded some matchups you are actually better off using it for damage/not caring, but I'm not entirely sure about which one's they are as it's also dependent upon your opponents matchup knowledge and play style.

*Edit* At tournaments I find it better to save it though simply due to a lack of matchup knowledge on the opponents part. Which makes this even harder to actually break down.

Why use F-air for an attack when you have B-air? Looking at these frame data states below. B-Air has more hit frames, no sour spot to worry about, less duration, same landing lag and block stun, and the same base damage, and based on my jigglypuff hitbox video, it B-air seems to have the same sized hitbox as F-air https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBYx_Ld3lUM.

So why use fair to attack when you have B-air?

F- Air
Hits on Frame (Sweetspot): 8-9
Hits on Frame (Sourspot): 10-20
Duration: 44
Hitlag (Sweetspot): 9
Hitlag (Sourspot): 7
Landing Lag: 15
Blockstun (Sweetspot): 4
Blockhitlag (Sweetspot): 9
Blockstun (Sourspot): 2
Blockhitlag (Sourspot): 7
Base Damage (Sweetspot): 12%
Base Damage (Sourspot): 6%

B-air

Hits on Frame: 8-11
Duration: 40
Hitlag: 9
Landing Lag: 15
Blockstun: 4
Blockhitlag: 9
Base Damage: 12%

 

[Osennecho]

Perhaps this alone is force of habit from Marth for me (sheer amount of fairs). But I find the leeway being able to use both in some matchups/the minuscule difference in spacing/turning times to be more important when the opponent knows the matchup well and damage becomes more valuable then necessarily getting the kill at times. I'm not saying in any way that it should ever be used as many times as Bair. Simply that the need for damage at times in some matchups out-prioritizes how much the move will stale. I also feel like I can weave better mixing the two as opposed to purely using bair.

Take playing an amazing snake who knows the matchup. Will you actually manage to gimp him? Probably not... At least not once bair chains stop. So from here on if you see a chance to hit with fair where bair isn't 100% guaranteed (even if it is in only one less way or the sourspot of fair) take it. Then stop after he reaches X%. It's also dependent upon your own % and stock count and how likely u are to die/have moves refreshed.

Its why I've never broken it down further to when exactly fair is better to use freely if you so wish then not. To many different variables.
I also think the sheer fact that I used it as much as I wanted for several months (to quit relying on it) way back influenced my ability to just feel like/know fair is a better option at times.

Also, sourspot or not damage is damage and if you lose your ground/spacing it is easier to regain/see a chance to fair (due to the much longer hitbox frames) depending upon their percent then various other moves at times.

All in all I have my reasons.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They're both good for spacing in different situations, bair is more versatile, but yeah. Both good.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Yeah I mean sure, saying you won't use f-air as a non kill move is much harder than doing it because there will be times when you are facing the opponent and can't turn around to do a B-air, that or you want to mix your opponent up with either f-air or pound, but I think it's just a good reminder that if you're in a situation where you can easily choose between attacking with B-air and F-air, choose B-air. That one hit you decided not to do with F-air might be the deciding factor of whether or not you kill your opponent with it when you land it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair can also be better for follow-ups due to the sour spot and different trajectory.

Oh yeah, and this

you want to mix your opponent up with either f-air or pound

Implies that you can only Pound facing forwards, which encourages me to again sing the praises of b-reverse Pound.

----

Okay so Pound is really good because:
1. It has a long duration, letting it hit through dodges and punish hasty movement
2. Because Jigglypuff actually moves during Pound, it can theoretically be a frame 1 punish with correct spacing and timing (sounds like theorycraft at first, but if you think about it a bit, we all use Pound like this).
3. Leads into things

Now consider this, if you b-reverse Pound it gains the following advantages:
1. You can mix-up bair with it, rather than just fair
2. It moves further (fact), which means that your opponent has to differentiate between Pound and B-Reversed Pound to time and space their punish (combined with Pound's duration, makes it very strong aggressively)
3. The frame 1 punish mentioned above can now be used in more situations due to the b-reverse sending Puff farther, and stalling slightly at the start.

The only question that remains is - why aren't you guys using this, like... at all? :@

 

[teluoborg]

Because it's slow and punishable and people stop being stupid beyond a certain skill level.

It's good as a mixup or as a lingering hitbox, but it's nowhere near to be Jiggs' best tool.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Frame 13 isn't slow. It's not fast, but it's not slow.
It isn't punishable if it hits; which it is very good at doing for the reasons I listed above. The risk-reward is well worth it as long as you aren't like "pound all day yesssss"
Do you think only bad players get hit by Pound? I've hit top Australian players with it consistently - I constantly hit decent players who know the Puff MU with it - what are they doing wrong?

 

[SoulPech]

Who cares who's the best Puff? She's a bad character!

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, Pound is actually a really good move. If used correctly, its hard to punish, can shield poke/pressure, and it also has a long lasting hitbox that lingers like a mofo. Pound is EASILY one of Puff's best moves, and it is hard as hell to avoid sometimes. Unfortunately, even though its great, if the opponent has good DI, Jiggs usually cant get much more than a single bair/fair/uair out of it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think the opponent would have to have bad DI for you to get more than a single hit out of it, even getting the first hit is often impossible.

But yeah, Pound is good, thanks

 

[SoulPech]

OK guys the PUff MUs are finally done!

Here are the results:

Lucas to -1
Falco to -2
ROB to -1
Mario to -1
GnW to -3
Bowser to -2
Ike to -1

TL tried to argue Puff to be -3, but that got diffused within 2 days, so that is still -2.

 

[TM_icecream]

Bowser should be -1

 

[Z'zgashi]

You do know Bowser kills Puff from a grab release at 60% right? And that his Up B OoS stuffs anything not perfectly spaced by puff and does 18% right? And that Bowser's fair outranges everything puff has right?

 

[TM_icecream]

Ya but bowsers fat

 

[Jigglymaster]

Ha. Bowser should be at -2 or worse. I've faced off against Vex's Bowser plenty of times, you'd think him being fat would give you an advantage, but it doesnt't

Implies that you can only Pound facing forwards, which encourages me to again sing the praises of b-reverse Pound.

Sorry my bad, you can do that. I wasn't thinking enough about it when I was typing but I do use it like that.

 

[Desu~]

We get it.
Jigglypuff is bad.
We shouldn't be playing her.
Her MUs are weak.
We keep hoping that she's got something.
But she doesn't.
She's glass.
Now she already became broken glass as we speak.
Yet, we still play her.
Now im getting hype for smash 4.
Hope she gets better.



You guys brought this upon yourselves.
is sad. And you should feel ashamed.

 

[SoulPech]

I mean...

I'm not mad lol. I've been playing P:M

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You do know Bowser kills Puff from a grab release at 60% right? And that his Up B OoS stuffs anything not perfectly spaced by puff and does 18% right? And that Bowser's fair outranges everything puff has right?

The fair is irrelevant (Puff out-spaces Bowser, or at least goes even in a spacing war, he can't contest her mobility with his high ending lag moves and multiple blind-spots), he shouldn't be grabbing her and I'm skeptical of up-b out of shield being a big deal; I rarely misspace aerials, especially when the opponent is shielding.

 

[teluoborg]

"High ending lag moves", "multiple blind spots".

No.

Ftilt Jab Dash attack side B.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I play Bowser man, the cool-down on his bread and butter is only mitigated by their range, power and decent start-up speed.

Puff can air dodge Ftilt, jab2 (jab1 in certain situations) and dash attack and get a free grab, and she can hang around diagonally above him and be safer than a fat guy wrapped in bubble wrap.

 

[Desu~]

And then he shoves you off with his up-B.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

>Hang around Bowser's head
>No immediate way to handle you if you space and bait correctly
>If he commits to one of the aforementioned and you are able, air dodge into him and shield (this can be done before ze up-b)
>Grab if he doesn't up-b, keep shielding if he does
>Shielded up-b is useless

 

[SoulPech]

>Hang around Bowser's head
>No immediate way to handle you if you space and bait correctly
>If he commits to one of the aforementioned and you are able, air dodge into him and shield (this can be done before ze up-b)
>Grab if he doesn't up-b, keep shielding if he does
>Shielded up-b is useless

I can see this working if the Bowser opponent has never played Puff before. I've played a few experienced Bowsers...it is not fun.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser doesnt need to ever commit though lol. If you hang around Bowsers head, Bowser can wait for Puff to either do something and utilt, fair, or up b it, or he can wait for Puff to run out of jumps and pressure stage advantage. If you air dodge into him and shield, he can grab you, which is either a lot of damage or an early death.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You guys are bad with Puff if you think people can counter on reaction.

 

[SoulPech]

You are bad in general because you live in poor smash skill area

I agree with DaPuffSter on this one. Z'z and Grim dont listen to reason and just go by what they feel and if you don't agree, you're bad or incorrect (bubbaking logic ) Bowser is just an annoying character to fight. this MU is a -2 at best and I've debated this so many times so it gets old lol.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Then it was someone else, you knew them, or you were baiting an argument or something. Doesn't matter though. On a side note... I really hope my Puff doesn't decline to the point I can't beat Raptor in dittos at Sktar...

How do you know it wasnt already better. ;P Im the best Puff after all.

 

[SoulPech]

If you ever...and I mean EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER lose to Raptor in Puff Dittos, you should probably rethink your life and quit Smash.

 

[RaptorTEC]

But my Puff is better than yours.

 

[Osennecho]

How do you know it wasnt already better.

It wasn't better because my Marth in doubles... That is all the rebuttal I need.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yo that Marth though... ):

 

[Osennecho]

That comeback was mad hype. Wish I had a copy of the replay .

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You are bad in general because you live in poor smash skill area

I agree with DaPuffSter on this one. Z'z and Grim dont listen to reason and just go by what they feel and if you don't agree, you're bad or incorrect (bubbaking logic ) Bowser is just an annoying character to fight. this MU is a -2 at best and I've debated this so many times so it gets old lol.

It's not a matter of what I feel, I understand how this game works at top level very well. It's just impossible to argue a point when someone's fundamental understanding of the game is so... off.

Z'z said that Bowser doesn't have to commit versus Puff, which is like... Only true if your pressure with Puff while you space is linear and awful. This is the character's bread and butter, if you can't get that right then "you're bad" is the only thing I can say without spending pages trying to deconstruct someone's ridiculous misconceptions, and having it devolve into stupid theory craft and ultra specific examples.

Your response was, essentially, "I've played good bowsers, you're wrong". I at least gave more information than that.

I guarantee I could beat any bowser player with puff.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You are bad in general because you live in poor smash skill area

I agree with DaPuffSter on this one. Z'z and Grim dont listen to reason and just go by what they feel and if you don't agree, you're bad or incorrect (bubbaking logic ) Bowser is just an annoying character to fight. this MU is a -2 at best and I've debated this so many times so it gets old lol.

Wut. I was agreeing with you an Dapuffster lol. Ive said its been -2 all along, just go look at the back room match up discussion for Bowser vs Puff, I was saying that like, 4-5 months ago too lol.

 

[SoulPech]

oh I know you were agreeing with me Z'z. It was just something I wanted to say for a while, lol.

It's not a matter of what I feel, I understand how this game works at top level very well. It's just impossible to argue a point when someone's fundamental understanding of the game is so... off.

Z'z said that Bowser doesn't have to commit versus Puff, which is like... Only true if your pressure with Puff while you space is linear and awful. This is the character's bread and butter, if you can't get that right then "you're bad" is the only thing I can say without spending pages trying to deconstruct someone's ridiculous misconceptions, and having it devolve into stupid theory craft and ultra specific examples.

Your response was, essentially, "I've played good bowsers, you're wrong". I at least gave more information than that.

I guarantee I could beat any bowser player with puff.

Here we go,

Grim, get off your high horse. Show me a video of you playing a Bowser... not just some guy using Bowser, but someone who ACTUALLY mains Bowser... please since you "know how this game works at top level very well". Honestly, you can't really say much since you're in weak region of players. I've watched the videos you've linked me in the past and some of the guys you fight are people that either a) drown in pools or b) 0-2 in bracket if they came to the Midwest/Cali/EC area. I'm serious.

Also, don't put words in my mouth. I never once said nor even implied of "I've played good bowsers, you're wrong" All i was saying is that I had an opinion of the MU (i thought it was -1) till I got more experience and realize how difficult the matchup is. This is from a mix of mostly people that secondary him, as well as playing Vex and people just playing bowser just to troll.

Trolling or not, there was no need for this comment.

I can think of 3 players that can use Bowser and you won't be able to beat them in a set. This isn't theorycraft; This is from actual experience that I've gathered. Everyone here is all in agreement, but yet you seem to have this attitude of "I'm right and you're all bad if you don't agree with me". It may just be lack of experience i dunno, but if both players know what they're doing, it's -2 at best.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dont think people are 'bad or incorrect' if they dont agree with me, but I do value my opinions and like to see good arguments and reasoning before I agree with other opinions.

But if youre getting this opinion from the tier list thread then LOL cuz I purposefully act dumb and troll there hahaha.

 

[SoulPech]

it's just how you argue things sometimes that give you that impression is all