Improved Recovery: F.AIR?

[Cyphus]

(i'll apologize in advance...because i've recently now done several attempted "tests" for this in training mode trying different distances and i can't prove anything, so maybe i'm crazy...but i swear when i use it when i'm actually recovering it seriously looks like it helps a tiny!! ) alas..i had to edit this post so it has more of a questionability to it...Perhaps i've jumped the gun on this supposed technique since its i just off of work, i'm tired, and shoulda tested it out beforehand...either way, i'm still holding onto a piece of hope, heheh.
but anyway..here's what i originally posted:

Ever see sheik players sent flying...they turn to zelda and f.air a few times towards the level....turn back to sheik, doublejump(DJ) and recover..and u'd swear they made it back further!?
Have you seen Kirby players recover by F.airing with every DJ?

I've experimented w/ this enough in serious play (including a tournament we just had here and i am convinced it helps doc.

So here is the theoretical new best way to recover with doc...

1) DI
2) Tornado soon as possible towards the level at full speed
3) DJ out of it immediately as possible...while F.airing
4) optional pill if high enough/cape to stall if neccessary
5)UpB (sweetspot/early/whatever)

Think of it as a rising f.air. For best results use it as the DJ just starts (soon as possible) and remember...don't even f.air unless you know u can afford its horrendous lag, kids!
In one particular time in a team tournament match DL64, i successfully ledgeteched twice...then got sent flying..DIed, tornado'd and DJ-F.aired...and then F.aired AGAIN (thats 2 f.airs) and everybody in the crowd freaked out how i made it back...and snagged the KO after, lol.
Hopefully the video of this match will be out this by this weekend (so i can see it msyelf, lol). If so, i'll post it here.

I highly encourage everyone to experiment with this when recovering and see for themselves if they find this helpful. so what ya'll think of it? Helps a tiny or not?
Ya'll are welcome to "test it out" too, but like i said..i couldn't find any evidence, but maybe physics are neglibly different from doing it freely and when returning to a level after being sent flying? prolly not..but oh well..use it in real battles and tell me if i'm crazy or not <_<

 

[Gea]

WTF CYPHUS OMG. Wuuuuh?

 

[ksadkiller]

does this work with mario?

 

[<π]

fair helps kirby and jiggy cuz it "depuffs" them and lets them move at their full horizontal speed instead of thier puffed up speed. I don't think Dr. Mario has a double jump form that slows his movement.

have you noticed a big change in your recovery?

 

[Cyphus]

unless i'm crazy, and my oponent, and the crowd...
it just seems like it seriously helps a little. Heck, i find it helps DK's DJ recovery too.
Your puff explanation may be true..but maybe all DJs suffer some reduced horizontal speed effect that can be partially nullified by f.airing? Either way, the Japanese sheiks turn to zelda then f.air 2 to 3 times and American sheiks are picking up on it too. =] Theres gotta be a reason for those f.airs!

 

[St. Viers]

I think it helps because it removes the effect of the down B stalling your momentum, and helps you drift more. I do this to recover on DL64, because when I'm knocked off at higher percents I don't just die.

But yeah, it does help, in my experience. And the wow factor is high.

 

[psykoplympton]

kirby does it cuase it helps time the jumps.

 

[Dogysamich]

um, no. Kirby does it cause it DOES give him a little horizontal distance; every kirby player knows that (all... 20 of us?)

__

But yeah, if i remember right, f.airing actually does help in the air, the same as it does with just about every other character than can do it (although it helps some in more degrees than others)

The reason why i personally dont like the idea of it is because; like you said, you have to jump early.

I dont mind tornadoing early, but i hate to use my jump first because that puts me in a bad spot (imo).

If you use your jump first and save your tornado, that means that; if you have to use your tornado, you HAVE to use a move that puts you in a fixed animation. Where as, if you tornado first, you do that fixed animation far away, where you most likely wont get hit.

___

So, f.airing (i think, if i remember right) actually does help; but what you have to do to do it may not always be safe. >.>

 

[jamminjohn]

Kirby does it because each of his jumps loses distance. By Fairing, the distance stays uniform.

For Doc, I find that bairing towards the stage helps if you're sent out backwards from something like Peach's or Samus' dsmash. This is how I perform the Hyrule jump with Doc.

 

[Bullet Bill]

I've had a look to see if this works and I still don't really know. There might be a tiny improvement but you can't really tell. Although I've just been on Hyrule temple and made it from the far right to the platform underneath without using the tornado. And without using the cape. I used 2 uairs. Maybe uair can help with the recovery. I'd like to ask for someone to try this out just to make sure but I don't think you can usually make that platform in hyrule temple just with dj and upb. I also think the cape does help your recovery if you use it right before you upB.

 

[Cyphus]

actually, you can make it to the patform on hyrule w/ only DJ and UpB. And of course you can make it there w/ optional tornado/cape/aerial...which (to me) none of which seem to really help...but we all know the tornado is suppose to help some <_< So maybe physics are just different when we're "testing it out" and when we really are recovering from being sent flying.

 

[DaBRÜM]

Interesting i will have to try that sometime...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

well, same with shiek i think, the fair pulls you a bit towards the stage, but i dont know wether it´d be so reasonable to do with doc, because it makes you recovery even more predictable, and it doesnt help to much, even if it does.... i think you should only do it if your up real high, and you´re sure no one can get you anyways xD
it definitely cant hurt to do it, if you´re carefull
i´ll try it when i smash again ^^

but compared to shiek or kirby, the fair just takes sooo long .....
sux ^^

 

[SmashMac]

I think the fair recovery has potential. I think it's situational, however. Like, it should only be used on stages with huge side frays, like Dreamland 64 or I guess FoD, that way you'll still be way high up to PTP afterwards. I usually do it like this though:

1.) DI
2.) Fair
3.) PTP (sometimes optional)
4.) Jump
5.) Pill at the stage
6.) Safely get back on the stage or sweet-spot

As far as overall usage though, I'm not particularly sure. I had a little chat with Green Mario about what he thought on the fair being useful for recovery and he didn't really think it'd be that useful. My main reasoning for using it though is that it helps you keep your DI towards the stage without having to wiggle out to gain neutral floating position.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

i did it twice today, somehow it felt it helped a bunch....

might have been just easy to get on, but i had no problem to get back to the stage, eventhough when i began recovering, i thought it might just be enough to grab the ledge....

edit:
i did it like this:
Di
PTP (the tornado thing? havent heard that name before^^)
Jump with immediate fair (at this point i´m still high up and far from the stage)
pill+ di left/right
UpB onstage or ledge

 

[JFox]

I do this with Marth, Sheik, and even Fox if I'm wayyyy up high, and I really do feel it helps. KDJ does every time pretty much with Sheik. My friends YOSHI even does it if high enough right before his DJ. (He's a yoshi main and swears he feels a difference.

 

[Bullet Bill]

but to be honest is it just making you feel as though it helps when it actually doesn't. If it did, it would pause your falling and send you forward slightly of just send you forard like marth's upB but I don't think that sheiks or Docs fair does this.

 

[azianraven]

i guess this fair recovery is more situational than for overall use. I guess if you had almost no hope of making it back to the edge, this could give you that extra boost to make it back. I personally wouldnt implement it into my gaming, but anything is worth a shot to help doc's recovery.

 

[xYz]

hmm im going to go ahead and say I disagree with this whole idea.
At a local Orlando tourney, I watched smashmac perform the fair recovery, in teams when he DI perfectly at around 140%.... had he just downB and DJ Upb he would have made it back. I've also tried it and i actually see worst to no difference.

 

[Magus420]

fair helps kirby and jiggy cuz it "depuffs" them and lets them move at their full horizontal speed instead of thier puffed up speed.

QFT. F-airing with anyone else doesn't improve their recovery. It may 'feel' like it but it really isn't doing anything.

This was Ganon's jab done at 204% and DIed horizontally towards the stage. The Left is right before up-bing and the right is immediately after landing. The ASDI was towards the stage, and I made sure to begin holding the direction to DI during the lag of a sidestep right at the edge as to not walk/run before getting hit or smash DI by pressing the direction during the hitlag. DIing it up&towards you can make it back with just air control and double jump up-bing so that's not a good way to compare them.

The explosion was from Ganon's u-tilt which I used as a timer to easily keep track of things instead of counting the frames. The fire is randomly generated which is why they look different, though if you look at Ganon himself he's in the same exact parts of his animations. The landing puff of smoke when Doc lands from the up-b is also randomly generated. While Doc is leaning in different positions in the left part, his center of mass is in the same exact spot (you can view this with R+Left on the D-Pad in developer's mode). This can be considered a character's 'true' location if you will since movement/actions begin in relation to this spot.

A) PTP, DJ, Air Control towards stage the rest of the way, Up-B
B) PTP, DJ F-Air, Air Control towards stage the rest of the way, Up-B
C) DJ, Air Control towards stage the rest of the way, PTP, Up-B

They are all the same. F-air doesn't affect your momentum, and PTPing first doesn't work any better.

However, while DJing first before the PTP doesn't improve the distance travelled, it does help your recovery by having an instant effect on your horizontal momentum. In this same example Doc will die off the side from the jab at 205% if the PTP is done first, while he is able to survive by immediately DJing first until 211% when he will die off the side. This is because when you begin the PTP you are still drifting slowly away even though you are out of stun, and the jump will combine and instantly cancel out that momentum and immediately start moving you forward preventing you from drifting into the blast zone.

 

[Gea]

Cyphus, you just got pwned. Also everyone telling me to tornado first did too. Lawls ;o

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

go magus!
aiaiaiaiaiaiaiaiaiaia


also:

but you have to do something right after the tornado right? otherwise you´ll loose momentum?

(PTP -> UpB or DJ > PTP -> DI towards stage)

 

[Magus420]

I didn't specifically test it to know by how much, but since you fall for a good distance after the peak height of the tornado before you can begin to accelerate horizontally (air control) you would begin to move after the tornado with an already accelerated falling speed with an unaccelerated horizontal movement speed. By immediately jumping (resets your fall speed) or up-bing out of it you avoid falling like a rock with no horizontal momentum during part of your recovery.

Similarly, if you don't DJ/Tornado immediately after you're out of stun you begin air controlling with a semi-accelerated falling speed while not having any horizontal which hurts your recovery slightly. Also, the over-b is affected by your current vertical momentum so I doubt that would work in place of them to reset your fall speed in the same way.

 

[Bullet Bill]

It doesn't matter that much when you ptp so long as its either at the start of the recovery or before you upB.

 

[SmashMac]

hmm im going to go ahead and say I disagree with this whole idea.
At a local Orlando tourney, I watched smashmac perform the fair recovery, in teams when he DI perfectly at around 140%.... had he just downB and DJ Upb he would have made it back. I've also tried it and i actually see worst to no difference.

Yeah, thinking about it I guess the PTP recovery first is the better choice in general. I think the fair recovery should only be thought about though on stages with huge frays though like Dreamland 64 or FoD. I wouldn't really suggest using the fair recovery on FD, PS, YS, just because the level isn't flexible enough for the fair recovery.

 

[Dogysamich]

i still like PTP first for the concept of fixed animations (something that's generally not punished as bad here as it is in other fighting games).

That concept being

when you PTP, you are in a set animation, for a set amount of time. once you start that animation, you cannot break that animation WHAT SO EVER until you are done. Meaning, unless somebody slips into the PTP, you are completely vunerable UNTIL YOU ARE DONE.

so, although it maybe (i think it is) better to jump first and ptp later, it is generally (and theoretically) safer to ptp first.

___

Why? Because if you PTP first, you're way off the stage; meaning they have to be in a position to jump all the way out there to hit you. Save the jump for later and you can interrupt it with an up+b or u.air or something to protect yourself.

___

Not saying that you CANT ptp later; you always have the option of PTPing backwards to avoid an edgeguard; but then normally cuts out your option of landing on the stage.

>.>

 

[Cyphus]

touche'. good stuff magus.
about the PTP order, yea the reason i usually recommend it first, is because just so u get it out the way while you're not vulnerable. If you tornado closer to the level you're usually just asking to be punished.
i'm aware if you DJ first, it could save you from dying...but if u reserve your DJ after PTP, you can get its full horizontal reach instead of it being withdrawn from the knock-back pull effect. The reverse goes for DJing first, then allowing the tornado its full distance...but obviously the DJ is the better recovery tool

 

[magnebula]

been a while since ive come to the boards... but ill def give this a try myself. good... find... sort of?