Improve your MK: Tactics, Theory-crafting, & More!

[ぱみゅ]

D-tilt shouldn't combo unless it trips someone, which also shouldn't happen unless opponent is at low percentages.
A lot of people don't react to it properly when doesn't trip (or can't because it's pretty fast and didn't expect it), but yeah.

If the people you play get hit by those things you should tell them to move/jump away and resent instead of keep moving at you and mindlessly airdodging to the ground.

 

[Pheta Ray]

So what about a combo like Ftilt1>Dtilt>Dsmash? I think this sounds like a combo that comes out fast enough. Ftilt1 comes out at like frame 4(?), Dtilt comes out at frame 3 and Dsmash at frame 8, so I think it should be fast enough to rack up about (I'm not looking at a guide, I'm just estimating) 22%? If Ftilt1 = 4%, Dtilt = 5%, and Dsmash = 13%.

 

[clowsui]

looking at startup isn't enough, you have to look at hitstun frames too

 

[Pheta Ray]

But in general, is it a good enough option?

 

[clowsui]

i don't think so lol. unless the person you're playing is seriously mind****ed

 

[Pheta Ray]

How about a combo string of Dtilt>Dtilt>GSL?

(In case you're wondering why the hell an Ike is posting in here, its because MK is my secondary right now. Trying to work it out.)

 

[clowsui]

won't work unless the second dtilt trips. at higher percents if the opponent is DI'ing out the dtilt will not string into itself either

 

[ぱみゅ]

Also, I wouldn't use GSL. It's better to just dashgrab, pummel and either Up or Down-Throw, that's more damage than GSL and you won't stale a kill move.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Right after a Down Throw, is it more advantageous to go for Nair or Dair? I've tried both but the Nair seems harder to get correctly. The Dair is the same way because they can jump away before I can get to them (I'm assuming its because I'm not moving fast enough).

And after Up Throw, should it be followed with Uair>Uair>Nair or Uair>Nair>Nado/Glide Attack?

 

[Demna]

Right after a Down Throw, is it more advantageous to go for Nair or Dair? I've tried both but the Nair seems harder to get correctly. The Dair is the same way because they can jump away before I can get to them (I'm assuming its because I'm not moving fast enough).

It really depends on the opponent. I'd always prioritize Nair over Dair. But if the opponent flies horizontally at which it's really hard to Nair, I'd usually go for the dashed SH Fair.

 

[clowsui]

Following dthrow with an aerial requires a read and is not a string anyways. Up throw does not lead to strings nor does it usually lead to frame traps unless they DI in a specific way. Honestly I'm tired of answering questions about strings and I'm just going to ask you to watch videos of top MK players to learn strings.

I'd also suggest mastering fundamentals and movement with the character. Learning strings is not incredibly important in Brawl until you reach a certain level of play.

 

[sneakytako]

So what about a combo like Ftilt1>Dtilt>Dsmash? I think this sounds like a combo that comes out fast enough. Ftilt1 comes out at like frame 4(?), Dtilt comes out at frame 3 and Dsmash at frame 8, so I think it should be fast enough to rack up about (I'm not looking at a guide, I'm just estimating) 22%? If Ftilt1 = 4%, Dtilt = 5%, and Dsmash = 13%.

i don't think so lol. unless the person you're playing is seriously mind****ed

I do this to you all the time lmao.

 

[clowsui]

You don't string them >_>

 

[Master Raven]

Ftilt/dtilt/ftilt wouldn't work. Any character will have enough time after the ending lag of the first ftilt to hit you back before you can dtilt. You have to take ending lag into account when theorycrafting any combos in this game.

 

[Demna]

How would you deal, as a Metaknight, with a Zelda who Spams F-smash (when you're in close range) and Din's fire (when you're in long range)? Sometimes Zelda's F-smash breaks through the Nado and connects. I'm having minor troubles toward a spamming Zelda, any suggestions dealing with the spam and/or the Zelda MU in general?

 

[Master Raven]

Wait for her to fsmash, then hit her with your tilts. Don't shield against fsmash because it'll push you too far for you to react safely, so you just bait it instead. Against Din's Fire, the best you can do from a long distance is shield and dodging.

 

[Demna]

Wait for her to fsmash, then hit her with your tilts. Against Din's Fire, the best you can do from a long distance is shield and dodging.

The timing between two F-smashes is quite low, plus the wide ranged hitbox. Should a Metaknight use D-tilt which has more range and is a safer option, or use F-tilt?

 

[Master Raven]

Depends on how fast you can react. I honestly don't know the Zelda MU very well (in fact, I doubt most players in general know it, since not many people play Zelda), and I forget exactly how I've dealt with Fsmashing Zeldas in the past, but I'm pretty confident that your tilts will hit her hurtbox during her fsmash animation. I'm sure there are options that counter it, but I couldn't tell you exactly which ones. The best you can do is to keep playing the MU and experiment with different approaches.

 

[Demna]

Depends on how fast you can react. I honestly don't know the Zelda MU very well (in fact, I doubt most players in general know it, since not many people play Zelda).

That's exactly the point. The lack of experience concerning this Matchup is giving me quite a difficult time. Although I still haven't lost, but I'm usually pushed to high percentages on my last stock. I'd usually Nado pressure her shield, and after a nado connects I'll try to juggle her in the air. However, usually she uses her Farorie's wind to escape which is effective. I might try to Hop-Dair into a dash attack followup and work my way from there.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't spam Tornado against Zelda lol
Rising Dair is your best friend, it beats a mis-spaced Fsmash from her, and you're safe against a well-spaced one.
Tilt her to death and juggle the crap out of her when given the opportunity, if you juggle her shorthop Uair from diagonally-down then she can do pretty much nothing.
Also, try not to Ftilt a lot, if you get read she can run and Usmash your lag.

Overall, just poker her and beat her at her own safe distance game.

Also, always keep Lightning Kicks in mind and don't fall for them. ALWAYS.

 

[Demna]

Tilt her to death and juggle the crap out of her when given the opportunity, if you juggle her shorthop Uair from diagonally-down then she can do pretty much nothing

Her F-smash has more range than MK's D-tilt, in what situations should I go for it?
Can you explain what do you mean by Diagonally-down SH U-air?

 

[TyponV]

Her F-smash has more range than MK's D-tilt, in what situations should I go for it?
Can you explain what do you mean by Diagonally-down SH U-air?

He means you should juggle her with Up Airs, but dont stay right below her. Stay below and to the side and she basically cant do anything

 

[Demna]

He means you should juggle her with Up Airs, but dont stay right below her. Stay below and to the side and she basically cant do anything

Sounds logical, thanks.
@kyokoro: Thanks as well.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't remember if her Fsmash is wider than our F/D tilt, but you can definitely walk Ftilt through its lag.
Also, at mid and higher damages, you can just Dash attack, get the trade against the first hits (her Fsmash is transcendent, it won't clash) and now you got little knockback and an airborne Zelda.
Don't you love win/win situations?

 

[pikmin.org]

Sorry if this has already been answered (there's a lot to read in this thread!), but what does the frame advantage/disadvantage look like off a dash attack that connects at low percents?

 

[Demna]

I don't remember if her Fsmash is wider than our F/D tilt, but you can definitely walk Ftilt through its lag.
Also, at mid and higher damages, you can just Dash attack, get the trade against the first hits (her Fsmash is transcendent, it won't clash) and now you got little knockback and an airborne Zelda.
Don't you love win/win situations?

So if I dash attack during the beginning of Zelda's F-smash, it will connect? Seems odd because I tried it a couple of times and it didn't work, it even broke through the Nado.

 

[Bloodcross]

We talkin zelda... luckily my region has the best one... and i forgot the MU.

Anyway, Dash Attack in general can be pretty good/flashy at interrupting the beginning animation of a move. It requires a ton of both patience and guts to pull it off. In Brawl it's better to wait for the opponent to throw a less safe option and/or just do nothing, for example zelda fsmash > dtilt/dsmash right after, b/c Zelda can't afford to allow MK to close in the gap (enough for MK to actually shieldgrab the fsmash) so she HAS to throw a move out (usually spotdodge on reaction since it's a pretty decent spotdodge)

Tornado can still hit Zelda's fsmash from the top, but again you're better off leaving it alone and punishing the followup (ex: punishing ZSS's followups after a whiffed Dsmash such as Jab... but you get the point).

Glide Attack is the only move that can cancel out Din's Fire... but it's useless to just use it when you're on stage. Just walk, block, and forward roll approach. Zeldas like to read spotdodges with Din's Fire, and it's kinda easy to punish MK's spotdodge with it on reaction, so be aware of that.

I didnt know her fsmash is transcendent, that's very good to know.

 

[Demna]

Glide Attack is the only move that can cancel out Din's Fire... but it's useless to just use it when you're on stage. Just walk, block, and forward roll approach. Zeldas like to read spotdodges with Din's Fire, and it's kinda easy to punish MK's spotdodge with it on reaction, so be aware of that.

I didnt know her fsmash is transcendent, that's very good to know.

Glide attacks cancels out Din's fire after or before it detonates? I personally tried walk, shield, and roll approach but it didn't work due to her D-smash when I get close (Zelda's downsmash is faster than MK's downsmash). Plus I can't always rely on Dash attack on her F-smash's start up animation, isn't there any other efficient way?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It doesn't cancel it, it clashes. Both GA and DF lose their hitboxes then, and now you're stuck in the Glide momentum while Zelda suffers a lot of lag. None take real advantage from that clash.
Anyway, Zelda moves a little right before the explosion, you can react to that movement and just shield or dodge (airdodge through it is a bit tricky, the hitbox is huge and lasts too long, Zelda can make it explode a little below you and hit after the invincibility frames, just take this into account).

And as said earlier, the most efficient way is to wait it out, if you don't want to challenge her just don't do it, she can't really do much about it, just keep on throwing Fsmashes and hope for you to fall into one (and then you can punish her between them).

And btw, Zelda's Dsmash is incredibly fast, but it lacks range (when she gets close to you she can only do one of three things: Dsmash (expected), Dtilt (slower) or Nayru's Love (little reward, just allows her to reset)). Stay out if its reach and you'll be fine.

 

[Demna]

In conclusion, if I'm faced with against a Zelda who only spams F-smash; I should Dash attack either at the start up of her F-smash or between 2 F-smashes. After that, when Zelda becomes airborne, I should be diagonally-down in reference to her in order to juggle her without being punished by any of her attacks. Din's fire should be airdodged on reaction (which is safer than GA clash). If by any chance I have trouble timing my dash attack, I should just wait for her to stop spamming F-smash and wait for her next move. Is this correct?

 

[Exdeath]

Tornado destroys . Her Fsmash beats a low tornado, Usmash will occasionally do so but is less likely to if the tornado isn't moving toward her, and Fair and Bair will outright beat it, but will almost always be the sour spot.

Just Fair or Ftilt Fsmash if she throws it out at neutral. Glide attack, glide attack, and tornado all clash with 's Side-B, with the latter two not working once it has reached a certain charge (I forget what it is). Spaced Dtilt is exceptionally powerful, as her fastest options (Dsmash/Dtilt) can't really punish multiple Dtilts, and every other attack is too slow to prevent from stuffing it with just about anything. Furthermore, since that option will probably be Fsmash which is a multihit move, you'll win any trade other than Fair, Bair, drill rush or tornado.

The most effective strategy is to walk around and play footsies in and out of 's dash attack and dash grab zone with Dtilt, Ftilt, and grab. Speaking of 's grab, it is almost as slow as a tether grab while having a third of the range, which effectively means that she is bad at dealing with your shield and having hers pressured. Her only real options OoS are Dtilt, Dsmash, Fair and Bair and only Dsmash and Bair cover you crossing her up with Froll on reaction. If you get behind and she doesn't immediately escape, then she is essentially going to be hit. You can just Dtilt and react to whatever she does.

 

[-Se7en-]

Her F-smash has more range than MK's D-tilt, in what situations should I go for it?
Can you explain what do you mean by Diagonally-down SH U-air?

When I went against a Fsmash spamming zelda I dash attacked after every Fsmash she did since it sets her in the air which can start a juggle but sometimes zelda would DI at a very left/right angle slightly going up,I abuse Shuttle Loop when she does this at high percents but if it's at low percents try to dash SH Fair/Nado so you don't stale Shuttle Loop.

 

[Demna]

When I went against a Fsmash spamming zelda I dash attacked after every Fsmash she did since it sets her in the air which can start a juggle but sometimes zelda would DI at a very left/right angle slightly going up,I abuse Shuttle Loop when she does this at high percents but if it's at low percents try to dash SH Fair/Nado so you don't stale Shuttle Loop.

After many matches against my friend's spamming Zelda. I got the time down for dash attacking between he F-smashe, therefore I have no problems regarding Zelda now .

 

[-Se7en-]

After many matches against my friend's spamming Zelda. I got the time down for dash attacking between he F-smashe, therefore I have no problems regarding Zelda now .

Good job!Also don't be scared to attempt a fthrow at high percents for a juggle. *Punish airdodge with nair*

 

[Demna]

Good job!Also don't be scared to attempt a fthrow at high percents for a juggle. *Punish airdodge with nair*

If I was scared from attempting to grab Zelda, then I would have lost most of my games . F-throw seems to be a better option than D-throw at higher percentages (except the edge imo), I'll keep that in mind . Thanks.

 

[Demna]

Regarding SH Nair, I see top players do it while Metaknight is almost on the ground before fastfalling, it's hardly even a SH. Whenever I SH Nair, Metaknight seems to be high and hardly reaches short characters. What I do is quickly flick up the analog stick, the moment is reaches neutral position I press A. How do I perform a Nair so low to the ground? Is there a trick to it?

 

[Ghostbone]

You buffer it during the jump animation. (Most players would probably just Y > A)

 

[Demna]

You buffer it during the jump animation. (Most players would probably just Y > A)

Can you explain it in depth, please?

 

[Ghostbone]

Uhh
In depth?

Brawl has a 10 frame buffer window, meaning that if you input an action (or series of actions, though that's more difficult) within the last 10 frames of another move, that action will start at the earliest frame possible. In this case, you input the neutral air during the animation of the short hop (before MK leaves the ground), and the neutral air will start as soon as possible.

In a lot of cases people will buffer a SH nair off of the shieldlag from being hit by whatever they're punishing.

 

[-Se7en-]

You short hop,put in the controller commands for fair,and then fast fall.