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***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!
- Thread starter RyokoYaksa
- Start date
- Status
Darkfur
Abbey Recorder
Ukemi is teching... How would it imply L-Canceling?
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Ukemi just looks like teching.
Kenjiblade
Smash Apprentice
"Ukemi" is simply an alternate (and apparently, the official) term for "teching".
Brav3r
Smash Journeyman
"Ukemi" how do i pronounce that?
oo-k-me?
oo-k-me?
Arc2012
Smash Cadet
Looks like it's confirmed on the dojo (as if it wasn't already...). Any way, i have a quick question here. Does anyone know if the number of attacks it takes for an original attack to get back up to full strength is based on the character or the attack being used, neither, or both?
DarkDeadlyCages
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 9
People even called the name for this diminishing attack power thing. Lol. Nice
Rakath
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2007
- Messages
- 643
Yeah, that wasn't hard... since the negative "Bonus" in melee for repeating a move to the point it lost damage was called "Stale Moves"...
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
It's only teching.
L-cancel isn't specifically talored to that button; it can be executed by pressing either L, R or Z. The 'L' in L-cancel stands for "Lag".
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
I like the dimishing attack idea.It really will force one to be more tactical in the usage of their moves.I dont however think taking L cancelling out was the best idea.Oh well im sure we'll all get used to it.
Gorlith
Smash Rookie
Ukemi (oo-keh-mii) is how to properly take a fall in martial arts like Aikido and Judo btw. I like that they named teching that.
DarkDeadlyCages
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 9
So after playing for a few days, you don't really notice any diminished knockback unless they're REALLY spamming the move. People usually don't run around and do dsmashes everywhere, so it's not like you get to see it very often. However, the one match I really noticed it I was Toon Link fighting Fox. He kept up-smashing me and, despite having around 120%, I wouldn't die. I got up-smashed about 3-4 times in a row (a third character was getting up-smashed by the Fox while I was in the air) and I always seemed to near the ceiling, but never reached it.
So yay, I'm happy that this is in, it prevents people from spamming up-smash too much. However, with everything else, it doesn't seem to be that important - you can't plan on overusing one move just to weak it so you can combo into it. If you plan on just fairing the entire time, your opponent will figure out a way around it and beat you before you can get the knockback low enough to perform any kind of new combo.
So yay, I'm happy that this is in, it prevents people from spamming up-smash too much. However, with everything else, it doesn't seem to be that important - you can't plan on overusing one move just to weak it so you can combo into it. If you plan on just fairing the entire time, your opponent will figure out a way around it and beat you before you can get the knockback low enough to perform any kind of new combo.
Zenjamin
Smash Lord
ya, the main thing to consider is, if you fail to kill with a move, dont use it again in the same way.
otherwise, the attacks replenish themselves pretty naturally.
otherwise, the attacks replenish themselves pretty naturally.
tw1n
Smash Champion
When I was playing it I noticed the diminishing knockback and damage from some characters like Dedede where its easy to spam one attack. It adds new depth and some strategy, but overall won't be too much of a hassle to players 
iron blade
Smash Ace
If you use an attack then use another one and then use the first attack again will it weaken?
I don't see this being a problem, it makes players utilize all a character's attacks instead of spamming one.
I don't see this being a problem, it makes players utilize all a character's attacks instead of spamming one.
tw1n
Smash Champion
It will weaken a bit. its mostly if you start spamming the attack too much. The plus side is with how evenly matched most of the characters are, you can use alot of their attacks rather than just focusing on the one
- Prisma -
Smash Cadet
This discovery is great.
I think I will personally make sure not to use the same move as much, and vary my attacks.
Great find.
I think I will personally make sure not to use the same move as much, and vary my attacks.
Great find.
guesswho
Smash Cadet
in a nut shell this should be considered as Attack Stamina. The more u use it the weaker it gets . dont do to many pushups in a set or youll burn out when its time to bench press
Randofu
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for bumping this! I don't know how I've managed to miss this thread for so long. This is an awesome discovery! Everyone else has said how much depth it will add, so I won't bother adding my two cents in that regard. Instead, I have a few questions and comments.
First of all, I think this is actually great for Smash players like me, who don't consider themselves to be competitive players but who do play a lot of Smash. The main differences between my skill level and competitive player skill levels are 1) their ability to use some of the ATs more effectively than me (specifically L-cancelling and wavedashing) and 2) their long hours of practice with particular characters to nail down combos. At least in the short term, this narrows the gap between our skill levels; Brawl really is a totally different game from Melee, and a lot of the old combos or techniques will not be useful. If I had to guess, I would say that with most characters I already vary my moves a lot, though there are a few exceptions. So, I really welcome this change, even though I know that competitive players will adapt to it and blow me out of the water again.
I'm surprised that there aren't any complaints about stale moves not applying in Training Mode. I've only ever used Training Mode for wavedash practice, so it doesn't really affect me at all, but I was under the impression that a lot of competitive players practice combos in training mode. It sounds like this is pretty impossible now. On the other hand, maybe if you specifically want to practice doing combos from a fresh life essentially, maybe that's what you want. I just think that it's really interesting how this change affects practice in addition to actual games.
I also wonder if the following is a valid strategy. After we play Brawl for a while, we'll become familiar with the characters' moves, and which moves are appropriate for a given situation. I wonder if it will be possible to essentially always err on the side of getting hit by one particular move rather than the other options so that you can build up the opponent's stale move counter. The Bowser/Zelda video is what made me think of this, though that mostly looked like bad playing on Zelda's part. Basically, Bowser was successfully "dodging" or shielding most of Zelda's moves, EXCEPT for her Fsmash. I wonder if this will become a reasonable strategy, or if it will be so predictable that it will be totally useless, or if it will just result in too much punishment (Bowser took a lot of damage, enough to be killed by her Ftilt).
Anyway, now that all of that's out of the way, I have a question. How does the Wario Waft work? Does it actually build up over TIME, or is it essentially a side effect of stale moves? All I mean is that it seems like damage and knockback might not be the only thing that changes with stale moves, but that the hit-boxes could change too. That being said, I don't think that's how the Wario Waft works, but since I don't have the game, I have no idea really. One more quick question: I've noticed that R.O.B. has a laser for one of his B moves. I can't be sure because I haven't seen a lot of videos, but it looks like the laser works like the Wario Waft. Is this true? Or, could this also be a possible instance where stale moves apply to the range of the move as well.
Great thread, everyone!
First of all, I think this is actually great for Smash players like me, who don't consider themselves to be competitive players but who do play a lot of Smash. The main differences between my skill level and competitive player skill levels are 1) their ability to use some of the ATs more effectively than me (specifically L-cancelling and wavedashing) and 2) their long hours of practice with particular characters to nail down combos. At least in the short term, this narrows the gap between our skill levels; Brawl really is a totally different game from Melee, and a lot of the old combos or techniques will not be useful. If I had to guess, I would say that with most characters I already vary my moves a lot, though there are a few exceptions. So, I really welcome this change, even though I know that competitive players will adapt to it and blow me out of the water again.
I'm surprised that there aren't any complaints about stale moves not applying in Training Mode. I've only ever used Training Mode for wavedash practice, so it doesn't really affect me at all, but I was under the impression that a lot of competitive players practice combos in training mode. It sounds like this is pretty impossible now. On the other hand, maybe if you specifically want to practice doing combos from a fresh life essentially, maybe that's what you want. I just think that it's really interesting how this change affects practice in addition to actual games.
I also wonder if the following is a valid strategy. After we play Brawl for a while, we'll become familiar with the characters' moves, and which moves are appropriate for a given situation. I wonder if it will be possible to essentially always err on the side of getting hit by one particular move rather than the other options so that you can build up the opponent's stale move counter. The Bowser/Zelda video is what made me think of this, though that mostly looked like bad playing on Zelda's part. Basically, Bowser was successfully "dodging" or shielding most of Zelda's moves, EXCEPT for her Fsmash. I wonder if this will become a reasonable strategy, or if it will be so predictable that it will be totally useless, or if it will just result in too much punishment (Bowser took a lot of damage, enough to be killed by her Ftilt).
Anyway, now that all of that's out of the way, I have a question. How does the Wario Waft work? Does it actually build up over TIME, or is it essentially a side effect of stale moves? All I mean is that it seems like damage and knockback might not be the only thing that changes with stale moves, but that the hit-boxes could change too. That being said, I don't think that's how the Wario Waft works, but since I don't have the game, I have no idea really. One more quick question: I've noticed that R.O.B. has a laser for one of his B moves. I can't be sure because I haven't seen a lot of videos, but it looks like the laser works like the Wario Waft. Is this true? Or, could this also be a possible instance where stale moves apply to the range of the move as well.
Great thread, everyone!
Plutonium21
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2008
- Messages
- 10
not meaning to be rude....but we knew this already from the official site......
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html
look under stale-move negation
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html
look under stale-move negation
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
........
not meaning to be rude....but this thread was created a week before it was even mentioned on the Dojo.......
if you looked at the first post you'd know that..........
not meaning to be rude....but this thread was created a week before it was even mentioned on the Dojo.......
if you looked at the first post you'd know that..........
If you didn't mean to be rude, why didn't you bother comparing the dates of the thread's original post and that update?
EDIT: Darn. How did I post 3 minutes too late without noticing it?
Randofu
Smash Journeyman
D.R.
Smash Apprentice
This will definetly make the game more deep
darkNES386
Smash Lord
So what is the new concensus on this? I figured rather then making a new thread, I'd try and get some discussion going about it.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Uhm...it's noticeable, but it doesn't seem to specifically help out with comboing potential, at least for me. Basically, it just keeps you from spamming the same KO move over and over.
Hyrus
Smash Journeyman
This feature seems incredibly broken.
If the game does use a "que" of 9 or 10 slots, that means that once you start landing your attacks, your character will weaken and never return back to full strength (unless you die). Using an attack once means that it will be weakened till 9-10 successful hits later with different moves,, providing you don't use it again. But then, you have 9 or 10 other weakened moves.
The big bad issue, though, would be flushing the que. If my name were Pit, and I camped on the ledge and spammed my arrows on an opponent, I could easily push things out of the que and recharge my attacks by spamming an attack over and over again.
And we know that diminishing returns don't stop Pit spam or DeDeDe chain-grabs from being extremely effective.
If the game does use a "que" of 9 or 10 slots, that means that once you start landing your attacks, your character will weaken and never return back to full strength (unless you die). Using an attack once means that it will be weakened till 9-10 successful hits later with different moves,, providing you don't use it again. But then, you have 9 or 10 other weakened moves.
The big bad issue, though, would be flushing the que. If my name were Pit, and I camped on the ledge and spammed my arrows on an opponent, I could easily push things out of the que and recharge my attacks by spamming an attack over and over again.
And we know that diminishing returns don't stop Pit spam or DeDeDe chain-grabs from being extremely effective.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
First of all: queue*
Second, that's not quite how the queue works, if I understand correctly. Every move also refreshes another move when it's used. If you use one move, diminishing it once, then use a second move, the second move refreshes the first move, as long as the second move isn't... the same move as the first move. So the first move is now fully refreshed, assuming the manner in which this works is 1:1, which it probably isn't quite. The only way to severely impair a move is to use it repeatedly without using other moves in between, as any move that isn't the move in question will actively refresh the move in question. It doesn't "wait" for a queue of 10 and then cycle through it, it's actively refreshing.
Unless I completely misunderstand.
Second, that's not quite how the queue works, if I understand correctly. Every move also refreshes another move when it's used. If you use one move, diminishing it once, then use a second move, the second move refreshes the first move, as long as the second move isn't... the same move as the first move. So the first move is now fully refreshed, assuming the manner in which this works is 1:1, which it probably isn't quite. The only way to severely impair a move is to use it repeatedly without using other moves in between, as any move that isn't the move in question will actively refresh the move in question. It doesn't "wait" for a queue of 10 and then cycle through it, it's actively refreshing.
Unless I completely misunderstand.
Bud
Smash Journeyman
no do two f smashes, then do 2 bairs (must hit player not shield, wario can hit his bike) and f smash is back to 100%.
will505new001
Smash Rookie
Dimenshing Attack Power
I heard that after a certain point the damage done from a repeated attack stops and
doesn't decrease anymore.
Is that true ?
I heard that after a certain point the damage done from a repeated attack stops and
doesn't decrease anymore.
Is that true ?
Tangy
Smash Apprentice
Just a reminder to anyone who wants to experiment, stale moves do not exist in training mode.
shadowofchaos725
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 82
Hi all! I'm new to this board! (but not to smash....)
Anyway.... I really think that they did try to diminish the effect of spamming attacks and try to get familiar with the character attacks....
I'm not too much into the math here and really don't have that much experience in getting every little detail.. but wouldn't the diminished attacks makes sense in another aspect? Characters get tired maybe? (sorry for sounding like a n00bish person.. but that's all I can come up with)
"Comboing Potential" might be a factor in this, but won't the damage percentage kind of balance it out if you actually use other attacks?
Anyway.... I really think that they did try to diminish the effect of spamming attacks and try to get familiar with the character attacks....
I'm not too much into the math here and really don't have that much experience in getting every little detail.. but wouldn't the diminished attacks makes sense in another aspect? Characters get tired maybe? (sorry for sounding like a n00bish person.. but that's all I can come up with)
"Comboing Potential" might be a factor in this, but won't the damage percentage kind of balance it out if you actually use other attacks?
wolfbrawl
Smash Cadet
But can you get a move all the way back to maximum power, the same as moves that you do when you just have died?
Resident_Smash_Genius
Smash Journeyman
This was obvious. Stop declaring this to be a "find". The only thing anyone found is how to claim they found something obvious. Maybe I should just start calling everyone with obvious statements "staters of the obvious". HA brilliant. S.O.T.O.s I love it.
Can I call you "stater of bullsh*t" then?
Because I'm pretty sure you failed to look at the date of the original post.
RetroRhythm
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 102
This was actually a HUGE breakthrough post before the game was out...
Please make sure to use your common sense next time and check the date before you assume.
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