***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[F@lc0-san]

This was in melee. It is called "stale moves" if you didn't know.

He DID know, learn2read the whole Opening Post of a thread.

In Melee, a move might do 1% damage after a period of time, but the KNOCKBACK would be the same.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

This was in melee. It is called "stale moves" if you didn't know.

I already have a whole paragraph in the topic post saying why this is not the same. /slap

I don't think any testing is actually required to prove that this exists in Brawl. There is evidence in nearly every Brawl match video out there. The only thing that really should be tested is the precise effects of knockback decay and getting it back.

 

[TheManaLord]

Well that killed the competitive game.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I also realized something else as I keep watching these videos... This could easily explain why the game lasts until 150%+. In Melee, we could Melee spam our KO attacks until it actually kills them. But in Brawl when people do that, they end up not being able to kill them anymore because of the drastically reduced knockback. This could make the game MUCH faster, and bring the tournaments back up to 4 stock once people learn to save their KO attacks until damage is racked up. Wow. Then throw in the possiblity of comboing better by purposefully doing this on weaker attacks. Assuming this is true... Ryoko, you may have discovered the most important aspect of Brawl so far. To the extent that it'll change how Brawl itself is played.

Why isn't this topic like 20 pages already? We need some people with Brawl to run tests and see if this is real, and if so, how drastic the knockback reduction is.

I'm quoting this because it's a great post. This might actually contribute to the Brawl metagame.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I already have a whole paragraph in the topic post saying why this is not the same. /slap

I don't think any testing is actually required to prove that this exists in Brawl. There is evidence in nearly every Brawl match video out there. The only thing that really should be tested is the precise effects of knockback decay and getting it back.

My apologies for hijacking the first post, Ryoko. I just wanted people to see this and truly understand what a big discovery this is.

And just so people know, I added stuff to the first post.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Well that killed the competitive game.

No, if anything, this might HELP the competitive scene.

EDIT: Bad bad Panda, no playing with your Katana for a week..

 

[webrunner]

Ice Climbers had the same in Melee, I thought- they weren't affected by ice or any other 'slippery' surface.

Anyway. here's few thoughts:
1- Is the diminishing per-target, or per player? If you attack one enemy with the same move, does it weaken it against second enemy as well?
2- Does the diminishing reset when you die?
3- Does the move have to connect?

 

[S2]

I also realized something else as I keep watching these videos... This could easily explain why the game lasts until 150%+. In Melee, we could Melee spam our KO attacks until it actually kills them. But in Brawl when people do that, they end up not being able to kill them anymore because of the drastically reduced knockback. This could make the game MUCH faster, and bring the tournaments back up to 4 stock once people learn to save their KO attacks until damage is racked up. Wow. Then throw in the possiblity of comboing better by purposefully doing this on weaker attacks. Assuming this is true... Ryoko, you may have discovered the most important aspect of Brawl so far. To the extent that it'll change how Brawl itself is played.

Why isn't this topic like 20 pages already? We need some people with Brawl to run tests and see if this is real, and if so, how drastic the knockback reduction is.

I'm really hoping that we can get back to 4 stocks. That would make me happy, since on 3 stock the punishment for a low % death due to a mistake (like recovery) is very harsh.

Yikes, Brawl is really going to play nothing like Melee. It'll be kind of refreshing to have to learn everything again though. Like getting to jump into a new fighter, but it still being Smash. Anyone who knows fighters realizes many are way to technical to be able to master more than 1 fighting game.

 

[S_B]

My apologies for hijacking the first post, Ryoko. I just wanted people to see this and truly understand what a big discovery this is.

And just so people know, I added stuff to the first post.

That's fine.

I did that to people's posts when I was a mod on IGN (for good reasons) and no one minded then.

As for the subject, I hope this quells a great deal of the "Brawl will have no depth!" nonsense that we've been seeing. Brawl could very well be much, MUCH deeper than Melee ever was and it'll be an INTENDED game mechanic this time. Fancy that!

But we need MORE RESEARCH on this, stat!

How low can the knockback go? KEEP THIS THREAD BUMPED!!!

 

[peachori]

i'm glad you did the stars/important discovery in caps, otherwise i would have probably missed this thread.

this really changes things. it also makes me sad because triple knees wont be as effective, lol.

seriously though, this is really big. consider intentionally weakening an attack in your first stock because its fully diminished knockback is perfect for comboing, then using the attack to combo in subsequent stocks. this *could* add a lot of strategy.

 

[Krell]

Interesting find. I guess this means we'll have to start throwing variety into our tactics. "Stale Moves" gains physical meaning.

 

[S_B]

this *could* add a lot of strategy.

If you can greatly diminish the knockback, this adds TONS of strategy.

This makes Brawl more strategic than a lot of fighting games out there now.

Attack modifiers mid-fight? ****...

 

[TheManaLord]

No, if anything, this might HELP the competitive scene.

EDIT: Bad bad Panda, no playing with your Katana for a week..

lol no if moves diminish in knockback players will be forced to use other moves, and since there is no l cancelling the spammable moves will not be spammed thus slowing the gameplay.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

But, of course, we don't know how much this knockback decrease affects attacks that don't have much knockback. We know that the knockback is reduced for strong attacks (but how fast/how much has yet to be determined), but we don't know if the knockback is reduced for weak attacks, and if it is, to what extent.

And to the post above this, gameplay would likely NOT be slowed down just because you're forced to use a variety of attacks. The automatic L-cancel is now adding a layer of depth to the game. No longer will we be able to spam the same strong air attack over and over if it has long landing time. But we CAN spam air attacks that have little to no landing lag, then when the time is right we can land the air attack that has long landing lag but KOs the opponent. But if we miss, we're in trouble. It makes perfect sense.

This game just got ALOT deeper than any of us expected... and all the balance changes that we've noticed throughout the game make MUCH more sense now. Think of it like this: Sakurai wanted players to be good with every move in a character's arsenal (he even SAID that in his blog I translated so long ago) so he implemented this system to FORCE you to be good with everything. And of course, assuming my "less knockback = more combos" thing holds true, then even MORE depth has been added to the game.

Man, I gotta go to work now so I wont be back for a looong time. And just when this stuff is getting good >_<

 

[Lunaretic]

As just a note for the numerically interested, in the video here the ike player's fully charged FSmash goes from 32 to 27 to 24, unfortunately the ike player moves slightly between hits, so the damage probably isn't perfect, but it seems to be roughly 15-20% decrease in power per hit proportionally. Meaning 32-(15%*32=4.8)=~27, 27-(15%*27=4.05)=~24 damage. I'd guess the force/distance thrown cuts down by ~ the same percent.

Edit: This obviously only applies for Ike's FSmash here, but until we have other info to prove this right/wrong, it can be extrapolated out to other attacks.

 

[Runeblade279]

If this is true, it will change the face of competitive Smash DRASTICALLY. In a good way, in my opinion. More mind games, varied moves, and strategy to add to your game.

Peachori's post brings up an interesting point. Just how much damage and knockback does this effect diminish? Spamming moves to make it comboable could be useless, or extremely effective.

Moar researchz pl0x.

EDIT:

As just a note for the numerically interested, in the video here the ike player's fully charged FSmash goes from 32 to 27 to 24, unfortunately the ike player moves slightly between hits, so the damage probably isn't perfect, but it seems to be roughly 15-20% decrease in power per hit proportionally. Meaning 32-(15%*32=4.8)=~27, 27-(15%*27=4.05)=~24 damage. I'd guess the force/distance thrown cuts down by ~ the same percent.

Edit: This obviously only applies for Ike's FSmash here, but until we have other info can be extrapolated out to other attacks.

Wow, that's quite a bit. If this is true for all characters and attacks, then the spam-to-reduce-knockback into combos could very well be a powerful strategy.

The question is, if/when does it get reset?

 

[F@lc0-san]

But, of course, we don't know how much this knockback decrease affects attacks that don't have much knockback. We know that the knockback is reduced for strong attacks (but how fast/how much has yet to be determined), but we don't know if the knockback is reduced for weak attacks, and if it is, to what extent.

And to the post above this, gameplay would likely NOT be slowed down just because you're forced to use a variety of attacks. The automatic L-cancel is now adding a layer of depth to the game. No longer will we be able to spam the same strong air attack over and over if it has long landing time. But we CAN spam air attacks that have little to no landing lag, then when the time is right we can land the air attack that has long landing lag but KOs the opponent. But if we miss, we're in trouble. It makes perfect sense.

This game just got ALOT deeper than any of us expected... and all the balance changes that we've noticed throughout the game make MUCH more sense now. Think of it like this: Sakurai wanted players to be good with every move in a character's arsenal (he even SAID that in his blog I translated so long ago) so he implemented this system to FORCE you to be good with everything. And of course, assuming my "less knockback = more combos" thing holds true, then even MORE depth has been added to the game.

Man, I gotta go to work now so I wont be back for a looong time. And just when this stuff is getting good >_<

Indeed, Toon Links bair just got more imba then it already is if it aplies to that attack aswell.

For those that dont know, Toon links bair is a small sword slash with virtually no landing lag, if the knockback gets reduced to nearly nothing this move can get very nast in combo-ing.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

hhmmmmm i wonder how this will affect ike everymove is a KO except nair, aether, and counter (which can KO but not like the rest of the moves)

this could get really deep

 

[Help!]

I dont know if this was asked yet, but if you can decrease knockback with spamming could that also make it easier to perform combos lets say Marios up air was spammed and decreased the knockback enough to be able to string more up airs or u tilts or u smashes?

and another question is in melee or 64 or both did the move get worst even if you missed and spammed it? or only if you made contact?

 

[Adi]

Interesting, since the effects seem so pronounced it will surely have a great effect on the metagame.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

So being a min/maxing ******* whenever possible, does anyone have information as to the rate of decay for damage on subsequent uses, and just as importantly, how to recharge them (if at all)?

 

[Seanson]

I don't think this will effect gameplay as much as you're making it sound. Many times in melee people would do the same attack not because it combos when it has reduced knockback, but because it works. Jigglypuffs for example uses b-air 80% of the time because the hitbox is amazing, and it is much much more certain you can hit with another b-air that does minor damage than a f-air that has a poor range.

Moves should be done because they will work, not because they aren't stale.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

and another question is in melee or 64 or both did the move get worst even if you missed and spammed it? or only if you made contact?

Quoted for many may of missed this;

Does the decrease in power and knockback only apply when you hit the target? Or can you freely use such movesregardless if it hits so you can create longer combos? Hopefully the first is correct, otherwise it may result in faster characters hiding and camping to result for them to spam moves in order to get easier combos...
​

 

[MookieRah]

Think of it like this: Sakurai wanted players to be good with every move in a character's arsenal (he even SAID that in his blog I translated so long ago) so he implemented this system to FORCE you to be good with everything.

It should be pointed out that from what I have seen there are A LOT less useless moves this time around. That was something that plagued melee... just having garbage attacks that would tend to hurt more than help.

I say that but ganon's uptilt is still that big ******** piece of crap.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It should be pointed out that from what I have seen there are A LOT less useless moves this time around. That was something that plagued melee... just having garbage attacks that would tend to hurt more than help.

I say that but ganon's uptilt is still that big ******** piece of crap.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. Both the first and second parts of it.

<3 using my iPhone at work to browse SWF.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Remeber: glitches doesn't make games better

 

[The Great Leon]

cant read the whole thread ATM, but these things should be tested:
whether time gone by reduces the effect or other moves used
whether dying resets knockback values
whether B moves reset A moves and vice-versa (projectile spammers :/)
reclarify whether whiffed moves reduce knockback

 

[MK-Ultra]

Oh Gee Golly! I sure hope they didn't nerf Luigi's taunt in this regards...

 

[Arc2012]

This is all very interesting.

I just watched a video with Marth and was keeping this concept in mind, watching and counting the number of times he used a fair and watching its damage. It seems that even when his fair didn't land, the next time it did land the damage would be less. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but it could mean that spamming non-landing attacks would diminish there % and knock back making them usable for combos. Anyone else notice this?

 

[AustiniusRex]

holy gods of snap. This is an incredible discovery and truly brings a new layer of reality into the game. This is a revolutionary feature for sure.

 

[Wizard99]

interesting. skill is even more impotant now...

 

[Adi]

Remeber: glitches doesn't make games better

This isn't even a glitch.

 

[Lunaretic]

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. Both the first and second parts of it.

<3 using my iPhone at work to browse SWF.

Sneaky Panda, off-topic question for you, how's the Resolution on the iPhone? I've used my blackberry to browse the 'net occasionally, but the resolution is really poor so it's tough to navigate sites as everything is turned into a giant column.

 

[Arteen]

Remember: glitches don't make games better.

It depends on the glitch/exploit. Some can hurt a game, while others can help it. I've seen it work both ways.

 

[Gennie]

Remeber: glitches doesn't make games better

Game mechanics =/= Glitches

Ontopic: Now that I read this, it makes a lot of sense, because some days ago I saw a video where Zelda killed somebody (don't remember who) at 63% with the Fair with an insane knockback, and yesterday I saw this video in the first post in his original thread, and I notice that Fair from Zelda to Pit and wondered what happened to that massive knockback it had (and with that much % Pit had), now it makes a lot of sense, I hope this get some tests soon :3

 

[IWANTHOTDOG]

Ah this is good. Will work against my noob friend who's gonna spam Toon Link's Up - b like he does with young link in melee.

 

[SirPenguin]

Well, in the previous two, couldn't you just do another attack (even if it's a single jab) to "reset" the staleness? Do we have confirmation that this property is still in? If so, this really doesn't change anything at all.

 

[MK-Ultra]

This should add some interesting mechanic to playing Lucario. The more you use a move the weaker it gets... and at the same time, the more damage you take the stronger all your moves get. mirite?

 

[yoshi_fan]

This isn't even a glitch.

THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING THAT

All the people is focusing in new AT, but here our member discovered the most important thing of brawl and it ISN'T a glitch.

That's what i'm saying

lol @ does. 0 in english for me xD

 

[Yuna]

If this is true, it will change the face of competitive Smash DRASTICALLY. In a good way, in my opinion. More mind games, varied moves, and strategy to add to your game.

Peachori's post brings up an interesting point. Just how much damage and knockback does this effect diminish? Spamming moves to make it comboable could be useless, or extremely effective.

Yes, it brings in a new layer of depth and an additional variable to keep in mind, but at the same time, it, unfortunately, also puts a serious limit on how we can play the game competitively.

At least most of the old advanced techs were optional. You weren't punished for not wavedashing or dashdancing. Here, you're punished if you don't use at least 8 different moves with a lot of mixup lest you want to see your KO-moves become stale.