***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks greatly diminish in knockback!

[Klowne]

Uh, sorry to burst the bubble here, but i'm pretty sure that the knockback of spammed attacks DID DECREASE IN SSBM.

Just try a simple test with a big attack like the falcon punch. Eventually, you won't even be able to KO someone at 100% with it. I have tried this myself.

 

[Lunaretic]

Yes, it brings in a new layer of depth and an additional variable to keep in mind, but at the same time, it, unfortunately, also puts a serious limit on how we can play the game competitively.

At least most of the old advanced techs were optional. You weren't punished for not wavedashing or dashdancing. Here, you're punished if you don't use at least 8 different moves with a lot of mixup lest you want to see your KO-moves become stale.

If it didn't punish you for not using all your moves it wouldn't make almost any difference. Knocking the player down for attempting to abuse what has been placed as an invalid tactic is perfectly legitimate game balance. The move still has some damage and knockback, and still has the same hitboxes/speed, so it's not like it's entirely useless, just you'll be a better player if you can incorporate all of your moves well rather than just relying on 1-3.

 

[dude984]

Uh, sorry to burst the bubble here, but i'm pretty sure that the knockback of spammed attacks DID DECREASE IN SSBM.

Just try a simple test with a big attack like the falcon punch. Eventually, you won't even be able to KO someone at 100% with it. I have tried this myself.

FALCOME PAUNCH!!!

Haha...had to do it....
but seriously, this is an interesting observation that could really change gameplay mechanics...hmm....

 

[kirborg]

but this means that you will have a hard time getting a lead in competitive matches. After you Ko a person your attacks are likely to diminish greatly, especially if there are edge guard games involved. After ko'ing an opponent 2 times in a row without dying your main attacks would be pretty much useless.

Still, it is an interesting development, I'm eager to see how this works out.

 

[Zenjamin]

Well that killed the competitive game.

Dont be stupid.

I dont know if this was asked yet, but if you can decrease knockback with spamming could that also make it easier to perform combo

A good way to find out if something has been asked yet would be to READ!

Remeber: glitches doesn't make games better

/ganon-face-palm






Ok, now we all see how this is an extreemly important part of the game... and we have asked some good questions of it.
now could we please do something about it?
RyokoYaksa, or Samurai Panda. could you please orginize all of the qhestions that has been asked so far on the first thread so people with the game can eaisly find them and test them?
Like a Q&A format or something?

 

[Yuna]

Well, in the previous two, couldn't you just do another attack (even if it's a single jab) to "reset" the staleness? Do we have confirmation that this property is still in? If so, this really doesn't change anything at all.

I doubt the move becomes stale just because of one consecutive use and that a single move connecting inbetween would make any difference.

THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING THAT

All the people is focusing in new AT, but here our member discovered the most important thing of brawl and it ISN'T a glitch.

That's what i'm saying

lol @ does. 0 in english for me xD

A vast majority of the ATs focused on aren't glitches. So you're basically saying bupkis.


In other news, it's confirmed. I'm playing Brawl tomorrow. I'll test this out as thouroughly as I can. Stay tuned!

 

[RyokoYaksa]

To those who don't believe the effect is significant, it's actually quite profound.

Assuming the same DI and positioning is used, if your move was just short of KO'ing a person (say, Zelda's Fsmash), and you immediately try it again... it's still not going to KO. It will not KO the 3rd time, or the 4th time. In fact, by the 3rd time, you'll actually be sending them a shorter distance than the 1st and 2nd attempts, even with the damage the target is accumulating in the process.

Even using a 1-2-1 attack pattern in an effort to KO has a significant impact on the sending power of move 1 as opposed to it being perfectly fresh.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

and another question is in melee or 64 or both did the move get worst even if you missed and spammed it? or only if you made contact?

Quoted for many may of missed this;

Does the decrease in power and knockback only apply when you hit the target? Or can you freely use such movesregardless if it hits so you can create longer combos? Hopefully the first is correct, otherwise it may result in faster characters hiding and camping to result for them to spam moves in order to get easier combos...

Sorry to repost this but It has been unanswered.​

 

[Magus420]

Uh, sorry to burst the bubble here, but i'm pretty sure that the knockback of spammed attacks DID DECREASE IN SSBM.

Just try a simple test with a big attack like the falcon punch. Eventually, you won't even be able to KO someone at 100% with it. I have tried this myself.

You sure you've tried it? Because I know for a fact that is not the case with the Falcon Punch as I've tested it with this move specifically in the past. A 14% FP will have the same knockback as a 27% FP as long as the damages are the same after the hit.

 

[eebrozgi]

Oh... I didn't even know that this existed in the previous games. :x

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Uh, sorry to burst the bubble here, but i'm pretty sure that the knockback of spammed attacks DID DECREASE IN SSBM.

Just try a simple test with a big attack like the falcon punch. Eventually, you won't even be able to KO someone at 100% with it. I have tried this myself.

I actually did this exact test hours ago to see if only certain B moves were affected. The sending power of Falcon Punch does not change at all assuming the damage % after the hit is constant. Do your test again, and make sure you're using the same hit area on the attack. Falcon Punch has 2 different ones with different sending power.

Or you could just try any A move in Melee and prove yourself wrong without me having to do it for you. The only thing lost on spammed attacks in Melee is the damage of the individual attack, which indirectly reduces knockback only because you're losing 2-5 damage on most attacks.

 

[pyrotek7x7]

I can't really notice.

But I'm a smash nood and don't notice anything. If this is in fact true, this will make Brawl have much more depth than melee ever did.

 

[S2]

It should be pointed out that from what I have seen there are A LOT less useless moves this time around. That was something that plagued melee... just having garbage attacks that would tend to hurt more than help.

I say that but ganon's uptilt is still that big ******** piece of crap.

Ganon's uptilt requires a superior mindgame where you trick the opponent into sitting in front of you and not attacking or running away for the 20 minutes it takes to charge up.

Ah nevermind, its still a retareded piece of crap.

 

[MK-Ultra]

Ganon's uptilt requires a superior mindgame where you trick the opponent into sitting in front of you and not attacking or running away for the 20 minutes it takes to charge up.

Ah nevermind, its still a retareded piece of crap.

It's obviously meant to be used in team battles in conjunction with Jigglypuff's sing!

 

[Lunaretic]

Ganon's uptilt requires a superior mindgame where you trick the opponent into sitting in front of you and not attacking or running away for the 20 minutes it takes to charge up.

Ah nevermind, its still a retareded piece of crap.

Lies, you simply need to use gannon's secret move, called "PunchYourRealOpponentInTheFace" right before the uptilt, that way they drop the controller in confusion! That said, yoshi's egg seems pretty useless still, as do the occasional odd move from some of the newcomers.

 

[Blue sHell]

Omg this is seriously the most brilliant find in all of history.

It's the reason why Marth's Fair combos so good

It's the reason why in vids Link's Dair kills at the % its suppose to.

It's the reason why mario and luigi could combo so well

And ESPECIALLY why the % of matches reaches so high.

 

[p00pd0g]

Interesting...I'm curious to see how this develops...

 

[maelstrom218]

So, in the interest of not scrolling through 9 pages of reactions: does this decrease in knockback and damage exist only if you hit the opponent with it, or does it also decrease if you just spam it in empty space?

 

[Help!]

Thanks for answering sorry i couldnt read the whole thread i was in class.

 

[-Aether]

This is going to affect certain characters much more drastically. I've seen videos of Shiek using what I believe to be F-tilt repeatedly on Snake. Snake's knockback is almost non-existant, much less so than in Melee. Litterally, the move is spammed 5-7 times in a row until Ganon is able to have a hope of DI'ing out of the F-tilt insanity.

So, a character like Shiek (low knockback, low lag moves), accompanied IASA frames (are these still around?) would benefit from this greatly, where a character like Ike/Bowser/Ganon who's moves will always knock the enemy out of combo range basically experience no benefit from this what-so-ever.

Basically, my logic here is if the move at it's most diminished state still knocks your opponent out of combo range, it is strictly a hinderance to the characer using said move.

P.S. - The Shiek F-tilt insanity video. Observe the madness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaZ5g6m5KFk

 

[Yuna]

If it didn't punish you for not using all your moves it wouldn't make almost any difference. Knocking the player down for attempting to abuse what has been placed as an invalid tactic is perfectly legitimate game balance. The move still has some damage and knockback, and still has the same hitboxes/speed, so it's not like it's entirely useless, just you'll be a better player if you can incorporate all of your moves well rather than just relying on 1-3.

It's been deemed an invalid tactic by whom and since when? Since when has any fighting game community deemed spamming the same few moves, especially for shield pressure, guessing game and openings for combos an invalid tactic?

In fact, it's the norm for the majority of fighting game out there. Most moves a character has are useless unless used as Wake-Up (of which Smash has limited use), guessing-game one-hit pokes (of which we have limited use as well as we a different shield game) or simply as a follow up from a launcher/jab.

I've played Soul Calibur, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike and Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 (not that deep, but still) on a high to semi-high level, and seen high level play of Melty Blood, other Street Fighter games, the Guilty Gear XX series and more and they're all about using a limited amount of moves for openings/launchers/mindgames/Oki-zeme. It's because most moves are useless as standalones because if blocked, they lag too much to either continue pressuring or they lag so much you'll be punished just for using them.

Out of 24 or so moves, Chun Li regularly uses 4-5 in Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike... on the Pro level.

While incessantly spamming the same move 90% of the time you use a move is bad, this is extreme (Zelda used the fair, like, 8 times).

 

[Help!]

Does Mario really combo amazingly well? cuase i have seen no good videos of mario in 1v1 and there are like only 2 i know of which theyre super nooby and spam the cape and the cape only and i have heard nothing of Mario cause no oneever wants to play him T_T

And Maelstrom218 you think you're going to make a guide for Mario again in brawl when the game starts developing to be competitive and you figure things out? Cause i thought your Mario guide for melee was amazing and it helped me a lot.

 

[Blue sHell]

Sticky this immediately, everyone has to know this, its gamebreaking.

 

[Lunaretic]

It's been deemed an invalid tactic by whom and since when? Since when has any fighting game community deemed spamming the same few moves, especially for shield pressure, guessing game and openings for combos an invalid tactic?

In fact, it's the norm for the majority of fighting game out there. Most moves a character has are useless unless used as Wake-Up (of which Smash has limited use), guessing-game one-hit pokes (of which we have limited use as well as we a different shield game) or simply as a follow up from a launcher/jab.

I've played Soul Calibur, Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike and Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 (not that deep, but still) on a high to semi-high level, and seen high level play of Melty Blood, other Street Fighter games, the Guilty Gear XX series and more and they're all about using a limited amount of moves for openings/launchers/mindgames/Oki-zeme. It's because most moves are useless as standalones because if blocked, they lag too much to either continue pressuring or they lag so much you'll be punished just for using them.

Out of 24 or so moves, Chun Li regularly uses 4-5 in Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike... on the Pro level.

While incessantly spamming the same move 90% of the time you use a move is bad, this is extreme (Zelda used the fair, like, 8 times).

I meant deemed invalid by the people putting this system in AKA the developers. I'm not sure how you extrapolated that out to be a 'this group of players says X isn't fair' sort of statement. When the Dev's have decided something, realistically there's about jack all the player can do, asides from trying to get around it, or attempting to spawn a competitive base out of a modded version of a game. I personally don't care if folks want to spam moves, just posting my observations/etc. That said, all of my high level competitive experience is in the RTS & FPS Genre, where repeated tactics are more likely to get you shredded to pieces than give you an opening.

 

[Yuna]

I meant deemed invalid by the people putting this system in AKA the developers. I'm not sure how you extrapolated that out to be a 'this group of players says X isn't fair' sort of statement. When the Dev's have decided something, realistically there's about jack all the player can do, asides from trying to get around it, or attempting to spawn a competitive base out of a modded version of a game. I personally don't care if folks want to spam moves, just posting my observations/etc. That said, all of my high level competitive experience is in the RTS & FPS Genre, where repeated tactics are more likely to get you shredded to pieces than give you an opening.

The problem is that a lot of moves are still useless in Brawl, both in terms of opener, approach, oki-zeme, fake-out, guessing game, KO-move, damage builder, combo-starter and combo-move. Some moves are just useless. Others are just really, really inferior to a bunch of other moves.

This is a fighting game, albeit a little unorthodox and us such should not follow the principles of an FPS/RTS.

 

[Help!]

I got another question what's oki-zeme? sorry for so many questions....

 

[MK-Ultra]

I got another question what's oki-zeme? sorry for so many questions....

Something that has no place being mentioned around here as far as i can see. Urban dictionary it my man.

 

[Burning Soul]

This is an amazing find! I can't believe it, this will change everything.

I don't know if it is a welcome change, i can't tell because i haven't played the game, but it is definitely good to have this information.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

So, in the interest of not scrolling through 9 pages of reactions: does this decrease in knockback and damage exist only if you hit the opponent with it, or does it also decrease if you just spam it in empty space?

So far it has been untold....​

 

[Dustero]

That's why a lot of people are saying these KO attacks have been nerfed. It's because if you spam them, then they don't have as much knock back. This is a very good discovery!

 

[Tristan_win]

O_O Good god! This might explain the different knock back I've been seeing from Sheik Fair. People who have used shiek in the past have it second nature to spam her best attack.

How much does it decreases in knock back with each attack? Does it count it if you land while attacking? Does this count for ground attacks as well? Could not using attack for long periods of time mean it would become more powerful then usual? How would attacks like sheiks chain be effective by this? How much will you have to use other attacks before you can use your KO moves again or is it a on timer? O_O could this effect grabs now?

I could go on. We need the game data, dig up M2k.

 

[DeuceBlade]

So are you guys saying the more you use an attack the weaker it gets?... thats not very cool..

 

[Blue sHell]

So are you guys saying the more you use an attack the weaker it gets?... thats not very cool..

In a way, no its not.

But realize. That its the reason why in all the videos we've seen so far people live until like 180% sometimes. This is the reason why. It's the reason why Marth has been vouched "So good" because he combos so much with his Fair.

Realize that now that we know this WE COULD MAKE SO MANY NEW COMBOS, WE COULD KILL AT REALLY EARLY PERCENTAGES, we could add so much more depth and strategy to the game that we thought had dimished all chances of possibly being deeper than just a beat em up with a tiny amount of mindgames. This thread. Literally. Reinvents smash.

Lame still?

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

Spambling?

EX: When Gimpyfish spammed that Bowser Bomb, he totally SPAMBLED.

I like it cause it sounds like scrambled, and and I love scrambled eggs.

 

[Yuna]

maelstrom218[/B]]So, in the interest of not scrolling through 9 pages of reactions: does this decrease in knockback and damage exist only if you hit the opponent with it, or does it also decrease if you just spam it in empty space?

So far it has been untold....​

No it hasn't.

It's only decreased if it hits, not if it hits thin air (or shield for that matter).

 

[DeuceBlade]

In a way, no its not.

But realize. That its the reason why in all the videos we've seen so far people live until like 180% sometimes. This is the reason why. It's the reason why Marth has been vouched "So good" because he combos so much with his Fair.

Realize that now that we know this WE COULD MAKE SO MANY NEW COMBOS, WE COULD KILL AT REALLY EARLY PERCENTAGES, we could add so much more depth and strategy to the game that we thought had dimished all chances of possibly being deeper than just a beat em up with a tiny amount of mindgames. This thread. Literally. Reinvents smash.

Lame still?

Ok I understand what the hype is all about now... I will probably still try to spam lol, but maybe saving KO attacks will have benefits

 

[Yuna]

In a way, no its not.

But realize. That its the reason why in all the videos we've seen so far people live until like 180% sometimes. This is the reason why. It's the reason why Marth has been vouched "So good" because he combos so much with his Fair.

Realize that now that we know this WE COULD MAKE SO MANY NEW COMBOS, WE COULD KILL AT REALLY EARLY PERCENTAGES, we could add so much more depth and strategy to the game that we thought had dimished all chances of possibly being deeper than just a beat em up with a tiny amount of mindgames. This thread. Literally. Reinvents smash.

Lame still?

It's not more depth if you have to limit your use of certain attacks and go for inferior comboes to prefer the KO-ability of your best moves. It's less depth as now you have no choice but to use the inferior of two combos.


It's only useful for Stale Moving certain tilts to provide more comboability, but, heck, freeze frames and DI.

 

[BananaNut]

I hate to say I told ya'll so, BUT I TOLD YA THAT SOMETHING BIG ALONG THE LINES OF ADVANCED TECHS WOULD BE DISCOVERED!

Anyway, it looks very interesting. very, very, interesting.

 

[Burning Soul]

This explains why in Noir's videos his toon link could bair ganondorf 4 times in a row.

 

[OrlanduEX]

This will change the way we change Smash Bros, but not necessarily for the better. We are basically forced to use weaker attacks repeatedly to rack up damage so that our strong attacks are still useful for KO. That restriction may prove less than enjoyable.