IMO sheik vs marth can be 50-50

[Beat!]

if at any point KK did say Pichu beats Fox, he was being legit considering we Have Unknown in our Region, Fox main with probably the best Pichu out there. And he ***** Spacies as Pichu. Just a thought.

._______________.

 

[Bing]

-_- Just making a point of regardless of what he says its not just random **** being pulled out of his ***. Anywho.

Got to do some Marth vs Sheik, Its a really annoying MU...

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

Flower doesn't understand that if Marth tries to out-wait Sheik when she's trying to force him to approach via needles, Sheik can take that opportunity to get stage-control (the middle) and press her advantage from there.
.

No. and you cant read

I literally cant understand why you cant just read context. Its not hard AT ALL

and being more knowledgeable is not a substitute for being a bad poster

 

[Archangel]

Personally I think it's better to be a bad poster but a good player, and knowledgeable person then to be a bad poster, bad player and person of little knowledge.

 

[mers]

I think Marth is Sheik's best matchup out of all the high/top tiers. I know everyone thinks Sheik wrecks Falcon harder, but I disagree. I think Falcon can make that matchup work better than Marth can.

 

[Archangel]

I think Marth is Sheik's best matchup out of all the high/top tiers. I know everyone thinks Sheik wrecks Falcon harder, but I disagree. I think Falcon can make that matchup work better than Marth can.

This. I actually feel more comfortable in that MU because the Combos flow easier imo.

 

[Aber]

Sheik has such reliable ways to kill marth. Marth does not.

 

[Max?]

I watched Niko make Marth vs. Sheik look like 60-40 Marth's favor vs. tec0 last night.

 

[Teczer0]

LOL

Its true though.

 

[weon - X]

are there any vids of this?

 

[Max?]

There could have been, but I was lazy/drunk.

 

[Niko45]

Yea Marth definitely has a lot more tools for fighting her than it initially seems.

Don't give a **** about needles as long as they are not actually comboing into grabs/fairs.

There's a certain spacing where sheik is really vulnerable and you can exploit the holes in her mobility. It's somewhere around the edge of where her dash attack can hit you. Her dash accelerates well but it tops out fast and with that much space you can beat it on reaction, same with anything involving jump fair cause her air mobility is bad...like...samus bad. She's dependent on wavelands to get her air game going which means you should expect wavelands and not do things like position yourself right under the edge of a platform cause that's just asking to get needle fair'd.

 

[BRLNK88]

The very fact that Sheik can play gay against Marth so well makes it not even.
She really doesn't even need to approach Marth.

 

[unknown522]

no. It can't be even

+1 pessimism

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Sheik is very bad against Marth if he manages to corner her. Her escape options are slow, and he can cover everything if he stays at a certain range. Dtilt is a wonderful control tool. Side-B wrecks all over her aerial approaches (see: bair).

The key I have been finding lately is to push her into those kind of situations as early and often as possible, and never let go. Don't gamble the stage position away with a grab or dash attack; just stay solid and watch her squirm.

 

[Archangel]

Sheik is very bad against Marth if he manages to corner her. Her escape options are slow, and he can cover everything if he stays at a certain range. Dtilt is a wonderful control tool. Side-B wrecks all over her aerial approaches (see: bair).

The key I have been finding lately is to push her into those kind of situations as early and often as possible, and never let go. Don't gamble the stage position away with a grab or dash attack; just stay solid and watch her squirm.

I am not sure I'd say Sheik is bad if cornered. It depends on how you define being cornered though.

 

[knightpraetor]

Wasn't going to weigh in on this discussion since it seemed to be going nowhere..


but sheik doesn't have any decent options when cornered...much worse than marth in terms of getting out...however, if you consider the likelihood that sheik will only eat one or two hits when cornered as opposed to what marth can do to a spacie if they choose the wrong option from a cornered position (even though the spacies have more options)..then I would actually say marth cornering sheik is not as bad for sheik as it is for spacies, even though marth is more likely to get hits on sheik when she is cornered.

 

[Archangel]

Wasn't going to weigh in on this discussion since it seemed to be going nowhere..


but sheik doesn't have any decent options when cornered...much worse than marth in terms of getting out...however, if you consider the likelihood that sheik will only eat one or two hits when cornered as opposed to what marth can do to a spacie if they choose the wrong option from a cornered position (even though the spacies have more options)..then I would actually say marth cornering sheik is not as bad for sheik as it is for spacies, even though marth is more likely to get hits on sheik when she is cornered.

I am still foggy on what it means to corner precisely. As far as punishing is concerned I agreed for the most part. You can 0-death a space animal's mistake if you are lucky/precise. Sheik on the other hand you may end up dead yourself if you aren't careful.

 

[Dart!]

Personally I think it's better to be a bad poster but a good player, and knowledgeable person then to be a bad poster, bad player and person of little knowledge.

anyone that takes the boards seriously needs a reality check.

 

[Roneblaster]

Ahhh yes countering sheiks bair approach.

 

[Archangel]

uh....What?

 

[Roneblaster]

Side-B wrecks all over her aerial approaches (see: bair).

I wasnt referring to marths downb.

 

[Archangel]

oh without quotes it just seemed to come out of nowhere.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Ahhh yes countering sheiks bair approach.

Sometimes a Sheik is in the air and DIs towards you and does a move. Sometimes that move is bair. In most of those situations, bad Marths do moves that get coldly beaten by bair (fsmash, ftilt, grab, jab, etc) and take that hit to the face. What I am suggesting is that side-b should be used to lengthen Marth's period of control, rather than letting go of an advantageous situation (Sheik in the air).

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlwFcGdyci0

 

[Dart!]

His **** is so bi....wait that isn't darrell...****

 

[Archangel]

LOOOOOOL. Darrel is Packing like a mofo!

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Keep reading selectively <___<
And by reading selectively, I basically mean you sound like an idiot.

this is why the marth boards (and the forum in general, coming from someone who has frequented srk for years) has a bad rep. Dont waste your time typing if you wont read something for comprehension, and simply want to read it in order to to say why its "wrong."

Lol, I know this is three pages back, but do you realize that you said this to one of the best Sheik mains around? Way to show that you don't know what you're talking about. Keep crying about your extremely good character.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik should beat marth like 60/40, give or take a little either way.

if you're playing on FD then marth's DD camping > sheik's inability to approach and he can lame her out pretty easily. with platforms though marth has a very hard time preventing her from gaining stage control because none of his hitboxes stay out and in many cases marth can be punished even if he hits because he hit with a non-tip. sheik should be able to slowly but reliably take over stage control to kill marth 1 stock at a time.

marth has no range advantage on sheik for any practical purpose. like he might have "more" but it's not where you want it to be except dtilt, and if you misplace the tip hit you get grabbed pretty easily. they should both **** each other pretty bad once a positional advantage has been established.

i think amsah is wrong when he says US sheiks rely on grabs too much. US PLAYERS rely on grabs a LOT out of necessity because OOS options and crouch options are stupid good if you don't have some way to negate them. for every character that isn't peach, that means grabbing a lot. sorry amsah but i don't feel like SH FF autocancel fair camping for 5 minutes is going to cut it.

i don't think marth is worse in the newer metagame because he's worse vs sheik, but because he doesn't have fox/falco as "strong" matches anymore.

 

[Archangel]

sheik should beat marth like 60/40, give or take a little either way.

if you're playing on FD then marth's DD camping > sheik's inability to approach and he can lame her out pretty easily. with platforms though marth has a very hard time preventing her from gaining stage control because none of his hitboxes stay out and in many cases marth can be punished even if he hits because he hit with a non-tip. sheik should be able to slowly but reliably take over stage control to kill marth 1 stock at a time.

marth has no range advantage on sheik for any practical purpose. like he might have "more" but it's not where you want it to be except dtilt, and if you misplace the tip hit you get grabbed pretty easily. they should both **** each other pretty bad once a positional advantage has been established.

i think amsah is wrong when he says US sheiks rely on grabs too much. US PLAYERS rely on grabs a LOT out of necessity because OOS options and crouch options are stupid good if you don't have some way to negate them. for every character that isn't peach, that means grabbing a lot. sorry amsah but i don't feel like SH FF autocancel fair camping for 5 minutes is going to cut it.

i don't think marth is worse in the newer metagame because he's worse vs sheik, but because he doesn't have fox/falco as "strong" matches anymore.

I read this.

I got an erection.

 

[phi1ny3]

sheik should beat marth like 60/40, give or take a little either way.

if you're playing on FD then marth's DD camping > sheik's inability to approach and he can lame her out pretty easily. with platforms though marth has a very hard time preventing her from gaining stage control because none of his hitboxes stay out and in many cases marth can be punished even if he hits because he hit with a non-tip. sheik should be able to slowly but reliably take over stage control to kill marth 1 stock at a time.

marth has no range advantage on sheik for any practical purpose. like he might have "more" but it's not where you want it to be except dtilt, and if you misplace the tip hit you get grabbed pretty easily. they should both **** each other pretty bad once a positional advantage has been established.

i think amsah is wrong when he says US sheiks rely on grabs too much. US PLAYERS rely on grabs a LOT out of necessity because OOS options and crouch options are stupid good if you don't have some way to negate them. for every character that isn't peach, that means grabbing a lot. sorry amsah but i don't feel like SH FF autocancel fair camping for 5 minutes is going to cut it.

i don't think marth is worse in the newer metagame because he's worse vs sheik, but because he doesn't have fox/falco as "strong" matches anymore.

This sounds accurate. Iirc, wasn't Fox v. Marth at one time considered 60:40 for Marth on a chart?

 

[Archangel]

This sounds accurate. Iirc, wasn't Fox v. Marth at one time considered 60:40 for Marth on a chart?

that was the age of techskill. Non-technical Fox's will get *****.

 

[Niko45]

sheik should beat marth like 60/40, give or take a little either way.

if you're playing on FD then marth's DD camping > sheik's inability to approach and he can lame her out pretty easily. with platforms though marth has a very hard time preventing her from gaining stage control because none of his hitboxes stay out and in many cases marth can be punished even if he hits because he hit with a non-tip. sheik should be able to slowly but reliably take over stage control to kill marth 1 stock at a time.

marth has no range advantage on sheik for any practical purpose. like he might have "more" but it's not where you want it to be except dtilt, and if you misplace the tip hit you get grabbed pretty easily. they should both **** each other pretty bad once a positional advantage has been established.

i think amsah is wrong when he says US sheiks rely on grabs too much. US PLAYERS rely on grabs a LOT out of necessity because OOS options and crouch options are stupid good if you don't have some way to negate them. for every character that isn't peach, that means grabbing a lot. sorry amsah but i don't feel like SH FF autocancel fair camping for 5 minutes is going to cut it.

i don't think marth is worse in the newer metagame because he's worse vs sheik, but because he doesn't have fox/falco as "strong" matches anymore.

Yea that's actually a pretty good summary of how sheik controls the stage I think. I find myself fighting cornered a lot in this MU, although I don't really mind that. I'm still able to outspace her without (much) stage behind me. I'd say if you position yourself under the center of the opposite side platform you will be out of range of needle fair stuff and positioned to pounce on her if she does that. If she gives up on that and tries to fight you on the ground you still have a BIT of stage behind you and enough stage that you can still do some tricky stuff with wavelands and retreat fair camping or just flat out approach her if it's there.

It works two ways with the stage control because if you just play without fear when backed down to the ledge, every grab or opportunity you get there will get them off stage quicker and get the ball rolling for you to build damage for free or potentially kill.

As far as Marth's metagame it's not just spacies, so many characters have closed the gap in their Marth MU. Peach, ICs, Ganon, CF have all become tight battles even if some of those are still slightly Marth favor it just ain't free anymore across the board.

Fox still gets ***** by Marth that MU sucks for Fox unless he's getting shine gimps which is very largely Marth's fault. Falco continues to get harder and harder though... I honestly think Falco will be a harder MU than Sheik eventually.

 

[Beat!]

Huh. For me it's the other way around. I struggle with Fox, while Falco is like the least problematic MU ever.

What are you supposed to do vs Fox? DD --> grab/aerial doesn't seem to cut it for me. At least not consistently. I end up trying to do a bunch of hard reads from the neutral game, with varying results...

 

[leffen]

man umbreon speaks so much bull**** its unbelievable


edit:
I also think Fox ***** Marth, there just aint no good fox mains

 

[Beat!]

Does any of them really "****" the other? I've always viewed it as a fairly even matchup, potentially in either characters favour by a slight margin, but nothing huge.

 

[Niko45]

Yea Marth's DD game completely beats Fox's DD game if you position yourself correctly. You want to give him enough space and keep an eye on his dash dance. If he ever runs too far towards you where you know he can no longer DD he's committed so you turn around and grab early because he's trying to overshoot you.

If he goes on platforms or tries full hop stuff you just swat him with fairs and up airs.

If he's hard camping himself you can overshoot your own stuff (fsmash, dtilt, nair).

If anything ever goes wrong you can SDI his dair or CC anything else for free grabs.

Any m2k vid is a total clinic on it.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I've watched every single M2K vs Fox vid there is like 20 times haha. I think it's my DD spacing that's lacking, because after improving a little in that area a few weeks ago I started to do a little better.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[leffen]

pro tip: objectively, fox wins all matchups 100-0 on perfect level. Saying that anyone wins over him is basically saying that a good X wins over a bad fox.

some points:
Marth should always have to approach, if you even get into the situation of overshooting and dd game instead of him countering your approaches then hes playing it wrong.

You forgot to mention that shine wins over grab, and running shine needs prediction to be punished.

Why would he need to go into full run to approach? he can just do quick dash turns to keep him able to turn around. He can also WD/Shield/jump etc.

Marth cannot deal with good platform camping (shield drop abuse + mango v taj style drops annihilate him)

Marth cannot kill him reliably (esp if he platform camps) while fox kills him at 70.

Fox is at an advantage when he is on the edge because of his broken wd with invincibility and safe stall which means marth cannot corner him.

oh and you cannot cc in a dash dance and his nair is safe on cc over 25% and asdi "cc" is moreor less only useable vs his dash attack and jab (add this to grab,shine and dair beating any cc).


cba writing more, mm at apex niko ;D

 

[Max?]

lol leffen.

Can't wait to see Niko body you