IMO sheik vs marth can be 50-50

[Dart!]

It all depends on marth. He has the tools and can combo sheik if he gets the right hits. Smarter play on the marth mains part and being able to adjust and not be predictable are what i think can make him a better character again.
Discuss

 

[OverLord]

I've always claimed it's 55-45 at worst.

I agree in general, Marth players are lazy and complain too much about Sheik's gayness.


Marth is as gay as her.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

In PAL yes

In NTSC no

E;

dtilt is good vs sheik

 

[Dart!]

I play NTSC i know how it is. I notice that almost everyone of us are one track minded. Shield grab spamming is almost as bad as fsmash. (i still have issues with smashing when i'm trying to tilt. :/ )

 

[Archangel]

What you just said is the reason why it can never be 50-50. You have to be perfect. If you are perfect and the Sheik is imperfect it can be 50-50. If somehow If sheik does the wrong tilt or smashes instead of tilt(shrugs) not a problem at all it still works. You don't have to be as good to win with sheik. That is just the character design. If somehow Both Sheik and Marth are both playing perfect then it should be closer but still would be 51.5-48.5 for Sheik.

 

[danieljosebatista]

I agree the matchup isn't nearly as bad as most Marth players think it is. Imo Marth needs to have very good spacing to do well though, and Sheik definitely benefits disproportionately from grabs.

 

[Beat!]

I've thought this MU could potentially be 50-50 for quite some time (at least it's not anywhere near as bad as some people try to make it out to be). I definitely agree.

I just think that Marth needs more patience than Sheik in this matchup (like when edgeguarding), which often makes it look worse than it actually is.

 

[Bing]

At a high level of play yes a near perfect Marth turns that MU to 50-50. Not even really perfect, but just smart enough to not fall for Sheik's Shenanigans.

At a lower level of play, I'd say that Marth for sure has MU advantage though...

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i honestly enjoy the sheik matchup and i dont believe its was one-sided as many marths believe. you can get really great combos on her if you are trying, but she doesnt need to try to set up hers on you nearly as much. i think she has a slight favor.

 

[Archangel]

At a high level of play yes a near perfect Marth turns that MU to 50-50. Not even really perfect, but just smart enough to not fall for Sheik's Shenanigans.

At a lower level of play, I'd say that Marth for sure has MU advantage though...

My Response

 

[Pi]

What you just said is the reason why it can never be 50-50. You have to be perfect. If you are perfect and the Sheik is imperfect it can be 50-50. If somehow If sheik does the wrong tilt or smashes instead of tilt(shrugs) not a problem at all it still works. You don't have to be as good to win with sheik. That is just the character design. If somehow Both Sheik and Marth are both playing perfect then it should be closer but still would be 51.5-48.5 for Sheik.

My Response

ftfy .

 

[Beat!]

^ Pretty much that, yeah.

 

[Ripple]

Oh god josh, I can't believe what I'm reading

 

[Roneblaster]

You dont even play this game josh.

 

[BRLNK88]

lawl, Sheik takes a dump on Marth in lower level play.
Marth has to have perfect spacing, Sheik comboes into fair as if its nothing.

 

[danieljosebatista]

What would you guys say are the necessary tactics for Marth to do well against Sheik? Obviously good spacing and not getting grabbed are a given. Any thoughts on how to do well in the match-up?

 

[Archangel]

Patience is something good Sheik's have in abundance as well....I'm not sure how waiting gives you an edge. Considering in the end Marth doesn't have a projectile and Sheik does...I see no reason why Sheik's can't out wait you.

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

Marth is the best character in the game.

You shouldnt put yourself into a position to be grabbed. You can keep your space without getting into her grab range. She cant approach you.

"OMG SHE HAS THE NEEDLEZ" ok, grab a ledge or get on a platform.

Also if you jump in the air near her, I sincerely hope you die, because you should.

Sheik. cannot. approach. safely.

edit @op: you can be predicatable as you want, just choose safe options. theres nothing she can do to force unsafe options....

 

[Teczer0]

50-50 iunno.

I think sheik still has a fair advantage. Just not devastatingly large imo.

 

[Archangel]

Marth is the best character in the game.

You shouldnt put yourself into a position to be grabbed. You can keep your space without getting into her grab range. She cant approach you.

"OMG SHE HAS THE NEEDLEZ" ok, grab a ledge or get on a platform.

Also if you jump in the air near her, I sincerely hope you die, because you should.

Sheik. cannot. approach. safely.

edit @op: you can be predicatable as you want, just choose safe options. theres nothing she can do to force unsafe options....

First of all Fox is clearly the best character in this game

second if you get on a platform you will be hit. If you camp the ledge you will eventually be hit by a needle. If you really want to draw it out to a waiting game then Marth should still lose simply because when the timer runs out he will have higher percent.

 

[weon - X]

I dunno dart, you say he has the tools to combo her, on the other hand she has the tools to combo him even harder and has a more than solid grab game no him. I used to think that he had the worst edge guards on her out of the top characters, but if u use the right moves (not sure bout grabing) you can keep her off the stage, I've noticed that you just jump off the stage and hit her which is pretty cool. Marths sometimes waveland onto the stage to try and tip sheik but its kinda risky since (im not sure about this either) i think they can react to it and go for the edge.

The whole argument of "if u play smarter and be unpredictable" seems like a bad argument to make in a match up discussion, those just seem like player traits instead of the characters.

 

[Shadow Huan]

sure marth can probably consistantly beat sheik since he technically outranges sheik... Except the needles.

But you can't be predictable and you can constantly commit to the same move over and over or... You will get punished then killed.

Agree with tech0 tho, it's clearly in sheik's favor, but only slightly

 

[Archangel]

I don't think it is 70-30 or 60-40(outrages claims). I do think it is around 54-46.

 

[Bing]

I disagree, I'd say Marth does have the favour at low level play... but that really doesnt matter.


Also Spam, thanks for the link, the song after it on the playlist was awesome

 

[Archangel]

I disagree, I'd say Marth does have the favour at low level play... but that really doesnt matter.


Also Spam, thanks for the link, the song after it on the playlist was awesome

huh? what song playlist are you talking about?

 

[Bing]

the video you posted jumped to a song after XD

 

[Orion*]

What you just said is the reason why it can never be 50-50. You have to be perfect. If you are perfect and the Sheik is imperfect it can be 50-50. If somehow If sheik does the wrong tilt or smashes instead of tilt(shrugs) not a problem at all it still works. You don't have to be as good to win with sheik. That is just the character design. If somehow Both Sheik and Marth are both playing perfect then it should be closer but still would be 51.5-48.5 for Sheik.

pretty much this.
Marth will always have the stressful road to achieving victory

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

First of all Fox is clearly the best character in this game

second if you get on a platform you will be hit. If you camp the ledge you will eventually be hit by a needle. If you really want to draw it out to a waiting game then Marth should still lose simply because when the timer runs out he will have higher percent.

Fox is not the best character. REGARDLESS OF THAT:

Your theorycraft is bad. Camp the ledge and eventually get hit by a needle?? ok sure. If youre ********, you'll die.

If sheik is throwing needles from the other side of the stage, get on a platform or grab the ledge.

If she stops, get off/down.

If you get on a platform where sheik isnt close to you (to avoid needles), she cant hit you. sheik has no mobility. You have mobility.

It doesnt have to be a "waiting game," its a spacing game... I cant respond to your theorycraft, its just so bad.
This hasnothing to do with manning up and playing the matchup, or "getting over it." Your theory is just really bad. You think sheik is a lot better than she is. If you actually sit down and play her (and watch top sheiks play), you notice how flawed the character is in terms of her movement and safe aggressive options.

I dunno dart, you say he has the tools to combo her, on the other hand she has the tools to combo him even harder and has a more than solid grab game no him. I used to think that he had the worst edge guards on her out of the top characters, but if u use the right moves (not sure bout grabing) you can keep her off the stage, I've noticed that you just jump off the stage and hit her which is pretty cool. Marths sometimes waveland onto the stage to try and tip sheik but its kinda risky since (im not sure about this either) i think they can react to it and go for the edge.

The whole argument of "if u play smarter and be unpredictable" seems like a bad argument to make in a match up discussion, those just seem like player traits instead of the characters.

Yeah im tired of people posting "mix it up" at the end of every matchup topic.

Marth can, in practice and in theory, cover every one of sheiks recovery options if her 2nd jump doesnt get her over his fsmash hitbox (if hes standing on the stage).

Also if you just choose safe options the entire match, sheik cannot do anything to you. She has no zones that beat your safe options.

I forgot this is the marth boards, so I'll stop posting now. keep weeping about your extremely good character.

 

[Beat!]

I forgot this is the marth boards, so I'll stop posting now. keep weeping about your extremely good character.

I'd usually agree with this, but it's kinda misplaced in a topic where the OP claims Sheik vs Marth to possibly be 50-50.

>_>

 

[kevo]

I think instead of trying to split the number 100 into two evermore arbitrary parts, Marths need to stop getting in the mindset of "oh damn this is bad, it's a 61.22-38.78 matchup" and just play hard. Sheik gets comboed, her dashdance sucks, and she's a decently big target. Just be patient.

 

[Beat!]

^ Agreed. The exact number isn't nearly as important as the fact that the MU isn't that bad.

 

[Archangel]

Fox is not the best character. REGARDLESS OF THAT:

Your theorycraft is bad. Camp the ledge and eventually get hit by a needle?? ok sure. If youre ********, you'll die.

If sheik is throwing needles from the other side of the stage, get on a platform or grab the ledge.

If she stops, get off/down.

If you get on a platform where sheik isnt close to you (to avoid needles), she cant hit you. sheik has no mobility. You have mobility.

It doesnt have to be a "waiting game," its a spacing game... I cant respond to your theorycraft, its just so bad.
This hasnothing to do with manning up and playing the matchup, or "getting over it." Your theory is just really bad. You think sheik is a lot better than she is. If you actually sit down and play her (and watch top sheiks play), you notice how flawed the character is in terms of her movement and safe aggressive options.

Ok I get it. You are dumb. That solves this mystery for now.

If you new anything about the history of this game you would know that me stating Fox as the best character is an on going joke reflected in the tier list.
I am not speaking in theory you are. I've been playing this game since day one. Since day 1 semi-big tournament was won by a sheik. He scrapped Marths on root to placing first. Since that time Marth vs Sheik has been an ongoing battle but if you count overall victories vs defeats since 2002. Sheik has about a 10000 win edge on Marth.

This is not because she is so much better. I feel overall she is actually a step under Marth personally. However when it matters most Sheik is just plain easier to win with. If you are in Grandfinals, Livestream/recording set up, Few hundred people screaming in the background for or against you, palms sweaty, knees weak, arms spaghett....etc. In that moment theory does not matter it's all about application and execution. Taking what you know in your head and preforming it. In those situations it is simply easier to be a Sheik then it is to be a Marth. It is so much easier to press the B button, toss out tilts, Dthrow-**** anyone. Marth has to put in more effort then sheik. That will always translate into an advantage no matter how you slice it. If Sheik and Marth are equally skilled and put in the same amount of effort then Sheik has a slightly better chance to win. There is no escaping that unless you get PAL sheik vs NTSC Marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

rofl "sheik doesn't have mobility"

 

[Beat!]

Marth has to put in more effort then sheik

That's just insulting to Sheik players >_>

 

[Mew2King]

sheik ***** him a lot harder than vice versa

 

[Niko45]

I think it falls somewhere in the 55:45/60:40 range. Is it totally playable and winnable in tourney? Absolutely and that's all that really matters.

I guarantee a lot of the marths (not dart) that say it isn't bad have never played a really good sheik main since they are so rare.

Ultimately I think you can zome sheik pretty closely to how you zone everyone else and marths punish and edgeguard are adequate. On the flip side sheik's punish game and edgeguard are pretty close to ideal so basically marth can **** her but she can **** him faster so your neutral game will need to be fairly dominant in order to win.

 

[Beat!]

Is it totally playable and winnable in tourney? Absolutely and that's all that really matters.

Yeah, that's the only thing I REALLY care about.

 

[BigD!!!]

its not that bad, spam arrows i dont know what youre talking about, marths won like 90% of tournaments for a period of like 4-5 years

you also really insult a lot of sheiks by acting like theyre not even trying when they play, they have to work pretty hard themselves, try playing as sheik vs a decent marth sometime

and i have played against a decent sheik main or 2 with marth niko, including drephen. i did better with marth than i did with fox or falcon, by a pretty decent margin. got a little lucky with some tips though, i'll be honest

 

[Archangel]

its not that bad, spam arrows i dont know what youre talking about, marths won like 90% of tournaments for a period of like 4-5 years

you also really insult a lot of sheiks by acting like theyre not even trying when they play, they have to work pretty hard themselves, try playing as sheik vs a decent marth sometime

and i have played against a decent sheik main or 2 with marth niko, including drephen. i did better with marth than i did with fox or falcon, by a pretty decent margin. got a little lucky with some tips though, i'll be honest

At what point did I say it was that bad? I've spent the past few posts saying it is not bad.

Marth won alot of tournaments vs Fox, Falco, Other Marths, Samus, Falcon, and a few good docs. The first AT's came out and well...Sheik didn't really get much of a boost so she died out. In the absence of alot of Sheiks, Marth and Spacies flooded everything. KDJ always gave Marth's a good run beating out the best marth's at times but losing to good spacies(sounds like today...).

Also I am not saying that Sheik doesn't have to try. Comparatively it is less effort. If someone has to give 100% to equal the others 90% that doesn't mean they aren't trying. I consider it the same thing as a Marth playing against a Link. I have played decent Marth's with all my characters and Sheik is overall the easiest with the exception of a few people who specialize in the MU.

Sheiks are in the same position as Marth typically when facing against good Fox players.

 

[mesa23]

imo the only reason marth players tend to have trouble against sheiks is because they think they're supposed to

then again, what the hell do i know