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Ike vs Lucario

Timbers

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Most of you talk like you've never played an Ike better than a cpu. You also talk like Lucario has Sonic's ground speed, Meta Knight's attack speed, and Ike's attack power. I think the tier list has gotten to people's heads.
Ike's ground game is superior to Lucario's. His jabs are ridiculous in range and faster than anything Lucario has. Metaknight is fast. Lucario is not fast. Ike is even slower. Ike should be killing Lucario before his aura ever reaches a very high amount. So like, that made no sense.

The biggest thing happening here is Lucario's ability to gimp Ike. That is where most of the kills will be coming from, not his "amazing power."

Also Ike's fair/nair don't clank with auraspheres, so like, that's pretty cool.
This thread makes me smile.

Lucario has teh aura.
Ike has a big *** sword.

Looks pretty even to me.
not even, but the 70:30 and 75:25 claims are taking it too far.
 

Kirk

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And Ike can't gimp Lucario either?

With a predictable recovery and an Up-B that does no damage, I'd say he's asking for some spikes.
 

manhunter098

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This thread makes me smile.

Lucario has teh aura.
Ike has a big *** sword.

Looks pretty even to me.
Lucario has a wide variety of attacks with decent range, fast execution times, and little ending lag. A chargeable projectile that causes decent damage and hitstun and is an effective killing move. Lucario has a better recovery and more aerial options off stage than Ike does.

Ike has power, a great jab, some slow but effective spikes, and good range.


He can put up a fight against Lucario, but when it comes down to it Lucario has more options in almost every situation and Ike has trouble actually forcing Lucario to give up options. Lucario on the other hand can force Ike into a corner with a superior off stage air game.
 

Timbers

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tell me how often ike will knock lucario out of his midair jump/knock lucario out of an ES.

tell me how often lucario will gimp an ike.
 

YagamiLight

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Lucario has a better recovery and more aerial options off stage than Ike does.
I'd just like to comment on this. Lucario's recovery, while it goes farther than Aether does, inflicts no damage and does nothing to get a person off the ledge. It's also pretty predictable, as Kirk said.
 

Kirk

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tell me how often ike will knock lucario out of his midair jump/knock lucario out of an ES.

tell me how often lucario will gimp an ike.
Just as often :D

This is assuming both players know what the **** they are doing.

I.E. I don't get gimped...it's really not that hard to avoid if you ask me.
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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*Sigh* ES can be curved onto the stage, or into a wall cling if the stage allows it. Never mind his floatiness and good second jump, too. People need to stop thinking that all you have to do to gimp Lucci is edgehog. His recovery isn't what you'd call good, but the only people who should be gimping a smart Lucario are characters like MK or Marth who have a WOP that our fair can't get through.

Trying to argue that Ike has an equal or better recovery than Lucario is a losing battle.
 

Kinzer

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You Ikes are worse than the Sonics. Your character is garbage and doesn't have any chance at all of beating a skillful Lucario. Stop trying to boost up how good everyone thinks your character is. We're seeking truth, not ******** bias.
Oh? An Internet tough guy huh? Maybe you would like to take this over a wifi-Brawl (because I'm stuck cramped in this hellhole people call a house) And see how "easy" it is to win?
 

Rapid_Assassin

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*Sigh* ES can be curved onto the stage, or into a wall cling if the stage allows it. Never mind his floatiness and good second jump, too. People need to stop thinking that all you have to do to gimp Lucci is edgehog. His recovery isn't what you'd call good, but the only people who should be gimping a smart Lucario are characters like MK or Marth who have a WOP that our fair can't get through.

Trying to argue that Ike has an equal or better recovery than Lucario is a losing battle.
He's not saying the recovery is equal, but that it's just as gimpable. You can't just edgehog, and he never said that. You can spike though. And if you're forced to up b anywhere near the stage, or don't make it to the edge or a wall in time, you will be spiked. Also on some stages the wall cling is nothing but spike bait. (Green greens especially) Or if you wall cling too high up.
 

manhunter098

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I'd just like to comment on this. Lucario's recovery, while it goes farther than Aether does, inflicts no damage and does nothing to get a person off the ledge. It's also pretty predictable, as Kirk said.
And? Against Ike Lucario is rarely going to need to use Extremespeed. Lucario is floaty so as long as he doesnt get sent too far from the stage in an extremely horizontal direction, he is going to be able to use his aerials and air dodges to ensure he makes it back to the stage. He can also toss out an aura sphere at greater heights as well. If on the off chance you manage to get Lucario horizontal to the platform at a decent distance from the stage, you are by no means assured a gimp. With a wall cling on 2/5 neutrals and the ability to curve his Extremespeed, as long as Lucario has his second jump he be no easy target off stage.

Also, Ike's recovery is very predictable, it just has hitboxes. So in regards to their specific b moves, they are about even (though Lucario has better distance). But Lucario as I stated is floaty, and Ike is not. Ike also lacks a way to FORCE Lucario to recover lower if he is off stage above the platform level. Lucario can pretty much make Ike recover low because of Aura Sphere, not that the situation is totally unfavorable for Ike, except that Lucario has fast aerials that he can follow up on while off stage to also prevent Ike from getting close enough to use Aether, his only safe recovery move against a character with a deadly projectile.


Smash is a battle of options, the character with the most options in the most situations is typically the one that has the advantage. Exceptions to this would be characters that have an immense number of options for gimping a wide variety of the cast, but those characters tend to have good stage control as well.
 

Timbers

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He's not saying the recovery is equal, but that it's just as gimpable. You can't just edgehog, and he never said that. You can spike though. And if you're forced to up b anywhere near the stage, or don't make it to the edge or a wall in time, you will be spiked. Also on some stages the wall cling is nothing but spike bait. (Green greens especially) Or if you wall cling too high up.
He said that Ike will be spiking a Lucario as often as Lucario will be gimping Ike.

Kind of sounds like he's claiming equal recoveries to me.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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No, more like people who know equally what they're doing. Meaning that they'll be gimped about the same number of times because people can avoid being gimped if they know what they're doing. Many people are speaking as if Ike had Olimar's recovery. It's not good, but it's not *that* bad.
 

manhunter098

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No, more like people who know equally what they're doing. Meaning that they'll be gimped about the same number of times because people can avoid being gimped if they know what they're doing. Many people are speaking as if Ike had Olimar's recovery. It's not good, but it's not *that* bad.
Its not that bad, but against an opponent that has a projectile with significant knockback like Lucario's, he can EASILY be forced to recover low. This already limits his recovery options significantly.

Ike's aerials also have more startup than Lucario's, and though they have more range in most cases they do leave him open to an Aura Sphere. If he doesnt use an aerial or air dodge to defend himself against Lucario he will risk being hit by Lucario's f-air and at that point things will be very bleak. You wont gimp your opponent on every attempt, but lets say that during a match each character is thrown from the stage about 20 times, Lucario when edge guarding Ike has a higher chance of being successful than Ike does against Lucario.
 

Kinzer

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Well alright, even though I lost most of the matches, at least that proves to you that Ike is NO **** WAY IN HELL IKE IS AT A 80:20 DISADVANTAGE!! Whoever said that needs help, because it's more like 55:45, maybe 65:35 at the most Lucario.
 

Kirk

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Because a few matches between two random people determine the matchup rating....right? xD

@manhunter: Your posts make me smile :D Good points all around. Lucario can pretty much kill Ike's aether recovery with a well placed Fsmash if done right also. Though that's not to say it isn't avoidable. But that can be said for both parties.

All I have to say is...Ike has jabs...Ike has FSmash. There...that evens things out :p Seriously though, a well placed FSmash can seriously ruin your opponent's game. Lately half of my kills have been FSmashes...but that proves nothing, eh? The fact is it's a very strong point in Ike's game. And to those who say 'lolFsmash' I feel sorry for you because you have no idea :D
 

manhunter098

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Because a few matches between two random people determine the matchup rating....right? xD

@manhunter: Your posts make me smile :D Good points all around. Lucario can pretty much kill Ike's aether recovery with a well placed Fsmash if done right also. Though that's not to say it isn't avoidable. But that can be said for both parties.

All I have to say is...Ike has jabs...Ike has FSmash. There...that evens things out :p Seriously though, a well placed FSmash can seriously ruin your opponent's game. Lately half of my kills have been FSmashes...but that proves nothing, eh? The fact is it's a very strong point in Ike's game. And to those who say 'lolFsmash' I feel sorry for you because you have no idea :D

How exactly do you go about landing a f-smash as Ike? I know that a couple methods work, but you do have to mindgame your opponent into it, or have them trip. And I am fairly certain that Ike's f-smash is not as good an edge guard as Lucario's, which is far superior due to significantly less ending lag.


I also want to know how an Ike can actually effectively limit my options with his attacks and control my movements to a certain degree, because that is absolutely necessary to his victory assuming that both players are going to make the same number of mistakes (mistakes are inevitable, what separates skill levels of players is the frequency at which poor judgment is executed).
 

Kirk

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Most often FSmash is used to punish your opponent upon them landing. You just have to time starting the attack before they can see it coming and move out of the way. On levels with platforms, it can hit right above Ike...most people don't think it will hit and it sometimes stabs the shield if it is depleted enough. But in the end, it is mostly mindgames. If someone is approaching, take a few steps back and let it fly...or one of my favorites: FSmash out of shield. You wouldn't believe how much this actually works. Ike's FSmash is one of the most fear inducing moves there is...and people will react stupidly for that reason. That's where you capitalize.

Jabs are a wondrous thing for Ike. Jabbing is actually a tactic you can use to limit options. You give yourself the option to cancel them into more jabs, grabs, tilts, etc. It is a very effective wall against your opponent. Jab --> wait for your opponent reaction puts yourself in a nice position as well. You can punish very well if you are good with reading.

Other than jabs, Fairs can pretty much stop any approach(with shorthop and fullhop variants).

Ike is mostly effective in controlling his opponents in the air. Making them use their second jump, then following up by baiting airdodges or punishing landing lag. UpSmash covers a massive area and is a common attack used with this. Uair and Nair have lingering hitboxes and are good with punishing the end of an airdodge.

That's all I can think of on short notice. Sorry if I didn't answer your question fully or specifically enough...but in any case those are some of things Ike has to offer :o
 

Samuelson

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I wouldn't exactly say that Ike is Lucario's easiest matchup at all. One thing that Lucario uses to his advantage are his aerials which a good Ike can completely shut down with retreating fairs. Another thing we use is our range and Ike outranges us. Fsmash and Usmash can kill really early if you're stupid enough to get hit by them, Bair is a good killer also. Ike really can't deal with projectiles though, he can try power shielding them or jumping over them. If he jumps then he is in a good spot to attack in the air since most of his aerials are slow.

The matchup is in Lucario's favor but i wouldn't say Ike is a cakewalk. The main thing Lucario has is that he's quicker and he has one of the best projectiles in the game. Also, Lucario can gimp Ike a whole lot better then Ike can gimp Lucario.
 

CaliburChamp

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Wow, 5 pages in only a few hours. If Ike were to have a better recovery, I'm sure Ike would have the advantage over Lucario. But it seems fairly even. They both have powerful tactics against each other and that makes it seem neutral, or a bit in Lucario's favor, thanks to his AS. Maybe 55:45 in Lucario's favor.
 

Samuelson

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Wow, 5 pages in only a few hours. If Ike were to have a better recovery, I'm sure Ike would have the advantage over Lucario. But it seems fairly even. They both have powerful tactics against each other and that makes it seem neutral, or a bit in Lucario's favor, thanks to his AS. Maybe 55:45 in Lucario's favor.
I would say 60:40 in Lucario's favor.
 

Tenki

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Well, I went ahead and saw what Ike can do to the Aura Spheres (Which shouldn't particularly be a problem, as they aren't fast):

Jab cancels out weak ones
Ftilt, Up Tilt, Dtilt cancel out fully charged, moderate aura boosted ones
The 999% percent Aura Spheres are clinked by the Fsmash only
Counter always works, naturally.
I find it ludicrous that (even if this is true) being able to jab or whatever and destroy a projectile factors into a matchup, yet somehow, shielding or dodging projectiles never seems to carry the same weight.

[1] You Ikes are worse than the Sonics. Your character is garbage and doesn't have any chance at all of beating a skillful Lucario. Stop trying to boost up how good everyone thinks your character is. We're seeking truth, not ******** bias.





[1] I have already stated that I have played good Ikes. (The best Ike in the world being one of them does that count?) I know this matchup(I'm not pretending I know it like everyone else in this thread, I actually know it) and Ike has no chance in it.
[1] Nothing is worse than Sonic fanboys. They piss me off too at times, especially when it comes to tier and matchup discussions.

[2] I don't follow the "best _____" (especially since, with a char like Sonic, our playstyles differ so much that there is no set 'best'), so enlighten me, who is the best Ike?

tell me how often ike will knock lucario out of his midair jump/knock lucario out of an ES.

tell me how often lucario will gimp an ike.
Statistically speaking, Lucario should have gimped Ike more, because there are more crappy Ikes than there are crappy Lucarios.
 

manhunter098

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Most often FSmash is used to punish your opponent upon them landing. You just have to time starting the attack before they can see it coming and move out of the way. On levels with platforms, it can hit right above Ike...most people don't think it will hit and it sometimes stabs the shield if it is depleted enough. But in the end, it is mostly mindgames. If someone is approaching, take a few steps back and let it fly...or one of my favorites: FSmash out of shield. You wouldn't believe how much this actually works. Ike's FSmash is one of the most fear inducing moves there is...and people will react stupidly for that reason. That's where you capitalize.

Jabs are a wondrous thing for Ike. Jabbing is actually a tactic you can use to limit options. You give yourself the option to cancel them into more jabs, grabs, tilts, etc. It is a very effective wall against your opponent. Jab --> wait for your opponent reaction puts yourself in a nice position as well. You can punish very well if you are good with reading.

Other than jabs, Fairs can pretty much stop any approach(with shorthop and fullhop variants).

Ike is mostly effective in controlling his opponents in the air. Making them use their second jump, then following up by baiting airdodges or punishing landing lag. UpSmash covers a massive area and is a common attack used with this. Uair and Nair have lingering hitboxes and are good with punishing the end of an airdodge.

That's all I can think of on short notice. Sorry if I didn't answer your question fully or specifically enough...but in any case those are some of things Ike has to offer :o


Well lets see how Lucario would counter these tactics. Ike's walk away f-smash sounds exactly like Lucario's, with a bit more range and yes more knockback, but also more punishable due to greater down time, though the extra range keeps him a bit farther from his opponents than Lucario can. Of course if you walk away and start a f-smash I can toss a fully charged aura sphere at you very easily once your hitbox is gone and you are recovering. So I would say that using this tactic against any characters with a chargeable projectile is unwise and asking for punishment. Ike on the other hand has no counter to Lucario's walk away f-smash mindgames, so all in all Lucario can punish Ike for this tactic, and Ike cannot nearly as effectively (if at all) punish Lucario for doing this.


Lucario's d-air as everyone knows stalls momentum, and can let him wait out the charging of most attacks (most specifically Ikes u-smash and f-smash), being floaty also adds to this, though it makes getting down to the ground in time to shield a little difficult. For Ike's u-smash the hitbox moves quickly even though its out for a while, so it requires precise timing if you want to be able to monopolize on the few frames of a vulnerability a character has when they airdodge and land, of course messing up this timing does beg for punishment too, so its definitely a viable strategy, but not without its risks, and of course Lucario can wait out a lot of the charging if not all of it, and throw off Ike by either fast falling or normal falling making it even harder to hit him during his vulnerable frames right as he lands.

Ike's aerials are risky to perform against Lucario if Lucario has a charged Aura Sphere, though if Lucario doesnt then they are definitely still useful spacing tools. As far as an air battle goes Ike out ranges Lucario, but Lucario with lingering hitboxes, fast aerials, good range, and once again the ability to use d-air to control falling speed can make any fight that Ike brings to the air extremely difficult for Ike.

Ike's jab game probably provides the most trouble for Lucario. But Ike must approach Lucario unless he wants to allow Lucario to fully charge an aura sphere any time he wants. Which Ike then must use slower moves in order to cancel, not difficult to time, but much more limiting than his options are if he only has to use a jab to stop an aura sphere.

As I see it on or above the stage Ike is made to stay close to Lucaro, not necessarily approaching, but he cant keep his distance because against a character with a projectile that is just foolish, let alone a projectile that can be charged and deals significant damage and knockback when charged. I also feel that Ikes air game or more or less shut down by Lucario's aura sphere and own excellent aerial game.

Off stage I still think that Lucario is going to have the better odds here. Most of Ikes moves except throws will send Lucario up and away, making it easy for him to defend his return to the stage with aerials. The same really does apply to Lucario against Ike as well, but Lucario using his aura sphere can force Ike to make an incredibly predictable return to the stage, spacing for the gimp now would be tricky, but not impossible for Lucario to pull off occasionally, given that mindgames dont always work and that applies both ways. I dont think Ike has significant horizontal knockback on any of his throws either, so it will actually take a while to get Lucario to a percent where throwing him off the stage could lead into a gimp. Overall Ike gimping Lucario (while Lucario is at low percents) shouldnt happen ever really as long as Lucario doesnt DI downards and Lucario should be successful at gimping Ike (at lower percents) from time to time.

Taking stages into account I would say that Lucario probably has the advantage on the neutrals, Ike might have a counterpick to use on Lucario, but I am not too sure, any stage that can significantly mess with Lucario's projectile game would be favorable. Lucario will probably want to pick FD as his counterpick stage against Ike, so it should be banned (benefits Ike for neutral round too). With that gone any other stage that is flat and has a wall cling will be on Lucario's mind.



I would say this match is probably about 65:35 Lucario. Stage control is very important and Ike cannot control the stage at all against a character that has a projectile, instead he will be controlled (well Fox I guess is an exception to this, no hitstun on his projectile limits stage control). Charged aura spheres also serve to control Ike as well, though not in the same way as BAS, they prevent Ike from spacing as he normally might, forcing him to keep distance from Lucario rather than the other way around. Thusly Lucario decides how much distance should be between him and Ike more-so than Ike does. Aura Sphere as I have also pointed out will limit Ike's choices for recovery, making his only viable option in most cases to try and sweetspot the ledge. Ike has the ability to kill Lucario at lower percents, but I would expect that to happen as frequently as Lucario might gimp Ike at a low percent. However being the character with the most stage control Lucario should find a significantly easier time bringing up Ike's damage and Ikes most effective moves against Lucario (his Jab mixups) will only serve to make Lucario stronger rather than effectively finishing him off.


I think this might be my longest post to date as well...
 

Timbers

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No, more like people who know equally what they're doing. Meaning that they'll be gimped about the same number of times because people can avoid being gimped if they know what they're doing. Many people are speaking as if Ike had Olimar's recovery. It's not good, but it's not *that* bad.
So an Olimar who knows what they're doing will still get gimped more than a Lucario, because Olimar's recovery is bad. Then Ike who knows what he's doing will be gimped the same as Lucario, even though his recovery is easier to gimp?

That makes no sense. Going on your logic, Ike would still be easier to gimp.
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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All I have to say is...Ike has jabs...Ike has FSmash. There...that evens things out :p Seriously though, a well placed FSmash can seriously ruin your opponent's game. Lately half of my kills have been FSmashes...but that proves nothing, eh? The fact is it's a very strong point in Ike's game. And to those who say 'lolFsmash' I feel sorry for you because you have no idea :D
Most often FSmash is used to punish your opponent upon them landing. You just have to time starting the attack before they can see it coming and move out of the way. On levels with platforms, it can hit right above Ike...most people don't think it will hit and it sometimes stabs the shield if it is depleted enough. But in the end, it is mostly mindgames. If someone is approaching, take a few steps back and let it fly...or one of my favorites: FSmash out of shield. You wouldn't believe how much this actually works. Ike's FSmash is one of the most fear inducing moves there is...and people will react stupidly for that reason. That's where you capitalize.

or one of my favorites: FSmash out of shield.

FSmash out of shield.
FSmash out of shield.
Stop talking.
 

Samuelson

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[2] I don't follow the "best _____" (especially since, with a char like Sonic, our playstyles differ so much that there is no set 'best'), so enlighten me, who is the best Ike?
Dguy plays Azen all the time. Azen most likely has the best Ike right now, ive played his Ike before, it is ****. It is the most impressive Ike i have ever fought and i would agree that it is one of the best.
 

AlexX

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WOW this topic moved fast...

Explain yourself.
You spam uncharged aura spheres at Ike and Ike stops each one with a punch. I highly doubt you're going to just continue doing that until the timer goes out.

Dguy plays Azen all the time. Azen most likely has the best Ike right now, ive played his Ike before, it is ****. It is the most impressive Ike i have ever fought and i would agree that it is one of the best.
I heard Silven was the best Ike. =/
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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WOW this topic moved fast...
You spam uncharged aura spheres at Ike and Ike stops each one with a punch. I highly doubt you're going to just continue doing that until the timer goes out.
And why wouldn't I? It's not like there's anything you can do to me from there.
 

AlexX

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And why wouldn't I? It's not like there's anything you can do to me from there.
But the reverse is true: theres also nothing you can do to Ike unless you either take the time to charge the shots or move in for an attack. It's a stalemate at that point.
 

CaliburChamp

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People can't seem to make up their minds about this match up. So I'll just make it for them. 55-45 in Lucario's favor. Slightly neutral.
Calls out for Azen... I know he plays a good Lucario and Ike, I wonder what his opinion is on this.
 

AlexX

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It in no way "forces an approach" as you stated. Think before you speak.
It forces something to happen since I doubt both are just going to continue the pattern all day, but you're right, I really could have worded that better...
 
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