Ike: The Detailed Match-Up Guide's Number Debate Topic

[V3RMILLION]

Own us day and night? You lost a tournament to a Luigi. A LUIGI. And I recall 3 stocking you with FOX once.

 

[furiousduffmanx]

To many small paragraphs *replies in quote*



No one actually believes its 5-5 now. This better get deleted.

edit: omg don't believe those guys I own them day and night. This saturday your all going to see my Ike ****** duffman so hard and then afterwards a video of him eating a spoonful of cinamon.

own us???? lmao thats y you got 9th in our tourney and we all placed higher than you. You like loosing too local random scrubs too

 

[error13]

ha ha arturo
you have never beat me
only our ike dittos ha ha

but i guess u can call
that beating us day and night =]

 

[HeroMystic]

Burrito, I'll reply to that tomorrow, which I hope when the trolls stop trolling.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

are you on crack v3rm? You've never 3 stocked me with fox and you never will. I how ever have a video of my making a 3 stock comeback on your falco who is Ike's worst match up.

I don't loose to local scrubs I just let them win so I can get them to come to TMS. I'll show you on Saturday I'm going to give all the NM Ike's pointers on beating your falcon so you loose out like 40$ then I'll make you throw up after our match.

edit: I never even get to fight you richard. but you use olimar so I really shouldn't win there =(. my Ike will own your slow guy though remember that.

 

[furiousduffmanx]

are you on crack v3rm? You've never 3 stocked me with fox and you never will. I how ever have a video of my making a 3 stock comeback on your falco who is Ike's worst match up.

I don't loose to local scrubs I just let them win so I can get them to come to TMS. I'll show you on Saturday I'm going to give all the NM Ike's pointers on beating your falcon so you loose out like 40$ then I'll make you throw up after our match.

edit: I never even get to fight you richard. but you use olimar so I really shouldn't win there =(. my Ike will own your slow guy though remember that.

what tips can you possibly give them when our falcon vs ike matches are 30-6 falcons advantage.

 

[V3RMILLION]

No I'm not on crack. I did 3 stock you. I wouldn't put it past you to have selective memory on something that bad. And yeah you have a video but I'm not nearly the smash fanatic you are. I only play on Tuesdays so you shouldn't have had ANY trouble with me to begin with. Plus I placed higher than you in a tournament maining FOX.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

learn to add maybe? that way they don't fail calculus twice.

I never remember you 3 stocking me and back then I only had wifi pratice so thats very good for some laggy random item people trainers. You only beat me by like 3 spots.

 

[furiousduffmanx]

Ill quote what everyone in this city tells you all the time

CHANGE YOUR ****ING MAIN OTHERWISE YOU DONT HAVE A CHANCE

I would like to see you do calculus 2.
all i know is that i never needed help on Pre-cal

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Your all just scared that eventually my Ike will own you all and you will have no way around this. Its why your hating this thread so much its what the el paso match ups will look like.

Anyways I'm going to bed you can all trash talk after I take your money saturday.

 

[Ussi]

I would love to take the MM but by the sounds of it you live in Texas.

Everything the trolls said aren't viable. 1 person doesn't make a match up -.-

 

[HeroMystic]

You forgot to give snake better camping, recovery, defensive game, and damage building.

I wouldn't give him damage building. Ike has the better pressure moves since, as I said before, Snake deals with spacing for the most part.

What does Ike have to get inside snake's range? Keep in mind that nade camping is one of the reasons people argue snake to be neutral against MK.

He has magazines that'll make Snake stop his camping while he stares indefinitely at them [/MGS reference]

Serious note: If Snake resorts to 'nade camping, Ike will have to rely on the predictability of his rhythm.

This is really just how to beat him not what Ike has on snake.

That up close and personal Ike will demolish Snake? I'd call that an advantage like how the Jigglypuffs say they will demolish Ike up close.

Ike's jumps are horrible. If the snake can get punished for dropping a C4 like this then he probably shouldn't have cyphered and could have just jumped onto the stage. If snake was supposed to use the cypher then Ike shouldn't be able to punish the C4 animation because he will be to high.

Snake may or may not be too high. There can be times when Snake has to recover a bit lower than usual that can allow him to be punished. If he's a bit higher, then aether can reach him.

But the point is that the C4 doesn't really stop Ike from attacking Snake.

Everything you said after snake can't do much contradicts it lol. You really did say a lot of things that snake can use to edge guard Ike except you left out cooked nades and C4 being able to edge guard and stage spike aether every time in certain stages and very hard to avoid in the ones that it isn't 100%.

I suppose I did contradict myself. I guess I don't see it as "much".

and Stage spike 100% of the time? Seriously?

I agree that Ike has a better air game but I don't see any reason for snake to get into the air and none of Ike's attacks juggle him into the air.

Some Snakes are N-air whores for aerial spacing, and while Ike isn't a juggler, he -can- persistently put him in the air as he does have the tools to do that.

All of them out speed Ike's counter parts and many other moves as well.

No point on refuting this here since it's true.

Don't factor in Ike's jab cancels. All of this is easily countered by grenades sure snake will take damage with Ike (if he doesn't shield drop it) but he will reset a position where Ike once again has to get past the camping.

So Snake will have a grenade in his hand 100% of the time when Ike jabs? <_<

Actually in terms of weight and power Snake's Fsmash will kill Ike 2% earlier than Ike's will kill snake, and snake has a much easier time building up damage every Ftilt is 21%. Ftilt also has less speed since snake's tilt is as fast as Ike's jab. Utilt is stronger than Ike's Ftilt as well.

I won't say Snake has an easier time building up damage (21% is ridiculous though...) but all right.

But I will say we Ikes tend to charge up F-Smash more than Snake does, so yeah.

Ike doesn't actually have a reliable way of getting past snake's camping. While Ike has much better pressure game than snake (not saying much they both aren't stellar) Snake has a much much better defensive game.

Agreed, although I wouldn't say Snake's isn't hard to get around. I guess that's more of a personal level of me dealing with Snakes all the time.

His close combat abilities don't actually fall to far behind Ike's thanks to his powerful and speedy moves he has much better oos options.

That just falls into defensive game, however.

if he has to recover low. this is avoidable first by DI. Second by air dodging at the right time. And third by using his C4 to take a little damage instead of flat out dieing.

First, I'm not sure how you can DI a spike. Second, if Snake has to recover low, if he air dodges he basically killed himself. Lastly, the C4 recovery does leave Snake open for attack depending on the %.

No one actually believes its 5-5 now. This better get deleted.

I honestly dunno why I said it was 5-5 the first time around. There's no chance at all for that.

edit: omg don't believe those guys I own them day and night. This saturday your all going to see my Ike ****** duffman so hard and then afterwards a video of him eating a spoonful of cinamon.

Everything the trolls said aren't viable. 1 person doesn't make a match up -.-

I didn't believe them. I was just annoyed that people just walk into this thread saying "lol *******!" while giving no argument whatsoever besides that "I beat noobs all the time!" argument.

Plus I was tired. Meh.

 

[YagamiLight]

Hurray for people not getting my point.

Oh well, I suppose I'm done here. I truly regret suggesting this thread be made now.

Light, sorry for the trouble. This was a bad idea.

No worries.


On another note, removed 50-50 from the Snake bit.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Shall we begin the mass marking of stupid clueless trolls invading our topic? It's the best way to deal with idiots after all: waiting for them to get themselves banned by constantly being stupid.

As for the G&W 50-50, correct me if I'm wrong but....it was a G&W mainer that proved it was 50-50 and not G&W's advantage.

 

[YagamiLight]

As for the G&W 50-50, correct me if I'm wrong but....it was a G&W mainer that proved it was 50-50 and not G&W's advantage.

Quite so.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5498835&postcount=690

 

[Ussi]

Light I want to sig you on what you said on page 47 of that thread. -goes ahead and does it anyways-

 

[YagamiLight]

Light I want to sig you on what you said on page 47 of that thread. -goes ahead and does it anyways-

Haha, I feel honored, Ussi.



Yoshi write-up will probably be done by the end of the day.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I wouldn't give him damage building. Ike has the better pressure moves since, as I said before, Snake deals with spacing for the most part.

Better pressure moves doesn't mean Ike builds more damage. Snake has a better defensive game and its pretty much snakes defense > Ike's offense. Plus snake's Ftilt builds up damage faster than anything that Ike has incase Ike does get close.

He has magazines that'll make Snake stop his camping while he stares indefinitely at them [/MGS reference]

Serious note: If Snake resorts to 'nade camping, Ike will have to rely on the predictability of his rhythm.

Predictability? This should just be disregarded right now good players aren't predicable.

That up close and personal Ike will demolish Snake? I'd call that an advantage like how the Jigglypuffs say they will demolish Ike up close.

Up close and personal won't demolish snake. plus you said this again later on which is why I took it as just saying how to beat snake.

Snake may or may not be too high. There can be times when Snake has to recover a bit lower than usual that can allow him to be punished. If he's a bit higher, then aether can reach him.

But the point is that the C4 doesn't really stop Ike from attacking Snake.

If he is recovering the right way he will be to high. There is no may or may not be in match ups. When snake has to recover lower then he shouldn't use cypher long enough for Ike to punish him.

An explosion doesn't stop Ike from attacking snake please explain.

I suppose I did contradict myself. I guess I don't see it as "much".

and Stage spike 100% of the time? Seriously?

What do you see as "much" then? Its a lot more than double jump and aether for 2 %.

I didn't mean stage spike 100% of the time I meant it will hit you 100% of the time and it can lead into a stage spike if you don't DI right.

Some Snakes are N-air whores for aerial spacing, and while Ike isn't a juggler, he -can- persistently put him in the air as he does have the tools to do that.

Then those snakes don't know how to fight Ike. Ike doesn't actually have the tools to keep putting snake into the air he can do it if snake messes up but not consistently. Even when he does its for what 13%?

So Snake will have a grenade in his hand 100% of the time when Ike jabs? <_<

I wasn't just talking about jabs the nades are for everything else. Jabs can be shield grabbed very easily he will have a shield 100% of the time when Ike jabs.

I won't say Snake has an easier time building up damage (21% is ridiculous though...) but all right.

But I will say we Ikes tend to charge up F-Smash more than Snake does, so yeah.

He does have an easier time building up damage. He can camp and he has a better damage building move than Ike which is just as fast and can trip leading into more damage. You have no reason to believe Ike builds up damage just as fast or better.

That charge forward smash was just a generalization and it has nothing to do with this match up because we don't have some magic move to stop snake from charging there smashes.

Agreed, although I wouldn't say Snake's isn't hard to get around. I guess that's more of a personal level of me dealing with Snakes all the time.

It doesn't matter if you don't think its hard its something snake has on Ike and that Ike has to deal with.

That just falls into defensive game, however.

Which is what snake is playing during this. It just makes it Snakes defense >> Ikes offense

First, I'm not sure how you can DI a spike. Second, if Snake has to recover low, if he air dodges he basically killed himself. Lastly, the C4 recovery does leave Snake open for attack depending on the %.

You just like every other move. You can DI spikes in order to tech them didn't you know this?

I wasn't actually talking about DIing spikes though I was talking about not being a position for him to be spiked. Ike has no move to put him into this unless snake DIs wrong.

He didn't actually kill him self and Ussi said its avoidable. If you jump out to try and spike him then he can just C4 and Ike will not have enough time to punish this no matter what % it is.

I honestly dunno why I said it was 5-5 the first time around. There's no chance at all for that.

What do you believe its now? Both kirk and jessiah talked about it this weekend and they agreed on it being 40-60.

 

[Ussi]

Burrito what would we do without you ;o

Now I'll attempt to bridge from my Ike vs Snake simile. (You have to love that)

Snake sets up traps via projectiles and tilts against Ike. But every trap has a was to be deactivated. What are these traps and deactivations? I'll get to that. Just be careful not to TRIGGER the trap, otherwise no cheese for you.

Trap 1: C4/mine plant - This tactic is done to control where the foe is going. Really, do not be intimidated by this. It kills yes, but the cue is too obvious and you have plenty of time to shield/dodge. But most people are afraid to go over it. Other times he'll use it though is when he is in the air and activates it before it falls down.

Deactivation: Guys the C4 will not be bothersome unless you are in some sort of LAG!! Walking/running you can shield/dodge right away from so don't be afraid to run pass a C4. Just powershield if he activates it just cause you got near it. Don't use a laggy move near a C4 and you'll be fine.

Trigger: But remember, the trigger to this trap is using a laggy move within the vicinity of the C4. Also, he can use this to C4 you while you are in the apex of aether. However there is a distance you can aether and avoid the blast. Also, forgetting about the C4 will lead you going over it without realizing it.

Notes: C4 detonates on its own after a minute. Comboing Snake into his own blast is one of the funniest things ever. Its either 30 seconds or a minute so yea. be wary of the time.


Trap 2: ftilt and utilt - by far the most broken disjoint ever. Frame 4 and 6 respectively activation and it has LONGER range than your sword. Ftilt is used as a spacing tool. utilt is used to kill. That's about all there is to this trap. It is a follow up after Snake's jab.

Deactivation: Aerials are you're only hope to defeat Snake's tilts. Fair out ranges both tilts, utilt is a barely so don't always count on it. that and shield and roll backwards or shield grab to avoid shield pressure.

Trigger: it's Snake's punishing tool. Basically you have put yourself in a situation where Snake was able to do this you. It'll happen so get used to it :/


Trap 3: Motar slide - Snake dash also known as. It gets Snake places and provides an attack while moving. Hard to punish after wards.

Deactivation: Ike can easily stop it with a nair or counter, but its more of a surprise attack so you have to expect it to stop it. SH bair sounds sexy to stop it though. If used to run away, then chase after snake but watch for the usmash coming down. Don't let him get any breathing room.

Trigger: Snake may want to either approach you this way or get away from you. Or to set up an edgeguard. (as in get to the edge while charing usmash)


Trap 4: Nades - this is the most annoying thing about Snake. Its when he pulls out a grenade, frame 1 too, and it blows up after 5 seconds. The purpose is mainly shield nading, which causes the nade to drop. Hitting a nade is the same in life, if blows up on contact. Therefore, it's really effective on physical only characters, Like Ike. Also he can throw it at you to force an approach cause no one wants to be where the nade it. He might stall it so that when he throws it, it'll blow up reaching you.

Deactivation: However, there are ways to avoid hitting the nade. One fair out ranges the explosion so there is always that. You can always aim your moves to not hit the ground (angled up ftilt, bair) However, if the attack is shielded on the stop, you'll hit the nade. So fair is the best bet to not get hit by it. If he plans to throw it, Sh AD though it, (throw back if you catch it) or maybe DA catch it. It does not flinch you however, so you can just charge straight through it.

Trigger: Snake does this no matter what.


Well I'm tired and gotta finish my hw so >_> later on snake.

 

[YagamiLight]

I got a voice in my head that said

"Forget the range system, you colossal joker."

And so I made it a normal numbering system and removed some flaws.

I'm sure this list is MUCH more agreeable?

 

[Ussi]

~_~... TL is much more harder than 45/55

MK is still harder than 4/6

OLIMAR IS HARDER THAN 35/65 I believe I have the most off line Olimar experience too DDD is a cake walk compared to Olimar AND THEY HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS??

Lots of numbers look biased still.

 

[HeroMystic]

*mutters about the Mario v Ike ratio*

What do you believe its now? Both kirk and jessiah talked about it this weekend and they agreed on it being 40-60.

60:40 seems right.

 

[YagamiLight]

~_~... TL is much more harder than 45/55

MK is still harder than 4/6

OLIMAR IS HARDER THAN 35/65 I believe I have the most off line Olimar experience too DDD is a cake walk compared to Olimar AND THEY HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS

Lots of numbers look biased still.

Olimar is light, has an easily gimpable recovery and a significantly worse aerial game than Ike does. His claim to fame, and the very reason I listed it as 35-65 is that Ike's main options of approaching are shieldgrabbable. The Dash attack, however, penetrates the Pikmin wall and the Nair to jab combo still works well enough.

MK 4/6 was a consensus AB and I reached, please don't bring it up.

And TL isn't really that hard, Kirk says it's 45:55 as well.

*mutters about the Mario v Ike ratio*


60:40 seems right.

If both Kirk AND Jesiah say 40:60 then I may as well make it 40:60.

And as for Mario:

 

[Snowstalker]

MK is 30:70. Too obvious.
Yoshi is 50:50.

 

[MysticKenji]

Olimar is 3:7 Olimar >_>

 

[Ussi]

Olimar is light, has an easily gimpable recovery and a significantly worse aerial game than Ike does. His claim to fame, and the very reason I listed it as 35-65 is that Ike's main options of approaching are shieldgrabbable. The Dash attack, however, penetrates the Pikmin wall and the Nair to jab combo still works well enough.

MK 4/6 was a consensus AB and I reached, please don't bring it up.

And TL isn't really that hard, Kirk says it's 45:55 as well.




If both Kirk AND Jesiah say 40:60 then I may as well make it 40:60.

And as for Mario:

One person doesn't make a match up. but meh, I'm done

 

[XACE-K]

MK is 30:70. Too obvious.
Yoshi is 50:50.

I agree with Yoshi. As for MK, I would say 65-35 from my experience bu idc about the MK match-up.

Olimar is 3:7 Olimar >_>

Agreed.

 

[YagamiLight]

MK is 30:70. Too obvious.
Yoshi is 50:50.

MK being 4:6 was a decision reached after several posts between me and AB.

Yoshi is still a bit in Ike's favor due to kill problems (Namely Yoshi is going to be dying early and is going to have big issues killing Ike, especially without a guaranteed Up Smash). We can further discuss this, if you'd like.

Edit: Actually no, I don't care. I'll make it 50:50.

Olimar is 3:7 Olimar >_>

See my reply to Ussi.

One person doesn't make a match up. but meh, I'm done

I see what you mean, really.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*sigh* Those numbers REALLY look bias. I mean, only one match up thats 30:70? Olimar and MK should be that as well at a minimum. Falco should really be 25:75. Tlink is harder then that (projectile wall + ability to get quick KOs on Ike compared to most around his weight + comboing ability + gimping ability + good recovery distance + quick attacks with disjointed hitboxes = a very slight disadvantage?)

Maybe a * should be the match-ups we haven't done in great detail, to make it a bit easier for those who want a quick glance at the chart. Or maybe a different color.

And for a joke, put down an Ike ditto as "Who ever has more friends to fight for." ratio. Seriously, that chart is just begging for some sort of wisecrack like that. XD

 

[Ussi]

And for a joke, put down an Ike ditto as "Who ever has more friends to fight for." ratio. Seriously, that chart is just begging for some sort of wisecrack like that. XD

I approve this message

 

[YagamiLight]

*sigh* Those numbers REALLY look bias. I mean, only one match up thats 30:70? Olimar and MK should be that as well at a minimum. Falco should really be 25:75. Tlink is harder then that (projectile wall + ability to get quick KOs on Ike compared to most around his weight + comboing ability + gimping ability + good recovery distance + quick attacks with disjointed hitboxes = a very slight disadvantage?)

Maybe a * should be the match-ups we haven't done in great detail, to make it a bit easier for those who want a quick glance at the chart. Or maybe a different color.

And for a joke, put down an Ike ditto as "Who ever has more friends to fight for." ratio. Seriously, that chart is just begging for some sort of wisecrack like that. XD

This bias claim is annoying.

MK, first of all, is in no way 30:70. AB and I had the largest discussion ever just a while ago and 40:60 is the result of all that.

Falco has a poor recovery, is light, Ike gets a free fair from a grab at the edge and Ike is a bit better at CC. Kirk put it as 35:65 but that seems a bit too kind.

You're not looking at the full TLink picture. Projectile wall is there, his KOs on Ike are quite late, actually, he doesn't have much of a gimp game; you'll be gimping each other rarely, his recovery is good, yes (But so is Yoshi's and Jigglypuff's) and his disjointed hitboxes are rather dinky.

Your Wisecrack joke was added, however.

 

[Ussi]

Does that include imaginary friends?

@MK numbers

Actually if this OoS bair to punish MK's shuttle loop holds true from my testing, I'm gonna start believing it to be 4-6 too. Ike will be able to edge guard MK if he shuttle loops to high O_O....

 

[Rykoshet]

You can punish a shielded shuttle loop with a lot. You can aether spike it if timed right, eruption is a 100% hit regardless of lide attack or not. You can spike him out of it too, actually.

 

[Ussi]

O_O.... aether was confirmed. But DAIR SPIKE?!?!?

 

[Kirk]

Lol that's what I brought up in our discussion like 20 minutes ago. :o

But I beg of you, do NOT put this match-up 40:60 just because of one thing we can do.

 

[XACE-K]

But I beg of you, do NOT put this match-up 40:60 just because of one thing we can do.

This is the person who thinks Ike's grab releases gives him an advantage against Wario. So 40:60 is most likely to stay.

 

[YagamiLight]

Lol that's what I brought up in our discussion like 20 minutes ago. :o

But I beg of you, do NOT put this match-up 40:60 just because of one thing we can do.

Oh, I wasn't particularly factoring in the shuttle loop punishing. I placed it as 40:60 for other reasons.

This is the person who thinks Ike's grab releases gives him an advantage against Wario. So 40:60 is most likely to stay.

That slight was not necessary. If there is a particular reason as to why you believe it's not what I've listed (55:45 Ike), then say so.

 

[Ussi]

We should stop bashing Light. What we believe isn't always truth. We could have maybe ran into a better player, or in fact we're running away from the situation and claiming lower numbers because of the general conscious of everyone does good against Ike cause he's slow.

 

[XACE-K]

That slight was not necessary. If there is a particular reason as to why you believe it's not what I've listed (55:45 Ike), then say so.

Well I agree that they are good and do help him in match-ups but I think you might put too much emphasis on it. At first you made them seem that they gave Ike an advantage on whoever he had them on.

But I'm not the one to argue over dumb things so let's leave it at they help Ike but aren't absolutely match-up changing.

 

[YagamiLight]

We should stop bashing Light. What we believe isn't always truth. We could have maybe ran into a better player, or in fact we're running away from the situation and claiming lower numbers because of the general conscious of everyone does good against Ike cause he's slow.

I'm just trying to be as level as possible in pretty much every situation. The fact remains that slow characters generally have a very bad reputation in any game, and even though Ike really isn't as slow as it seems, people still place him under this stereotype. There are around two ways to change this way of thinking: In theory and in practice. Theory is basically what we are doing here, discussing Ike's options and seeing how it affects the match-ups. Match-ups make or break a character, really. For example, DK and Fox are quite good, but there will forever be the stain of D3 and Pikachu, respectively, on them and their match-ups. And in practice is just beating people with Ike, which is certainly possible as he's a viable character.

Well I agree that they are good and do help him in match-ups but I think you might put too much emphasis on it. At first you made them seem that they gave Ike an advantage on whoever he had them on.

But I'm not the one to argue over dumb things so let's leave it at they help Ike but aren't absolutely match-up changing.

It might seem like I think too much of those releases, but most of the numbers were barely affected by grab releases, if at all. Dedede I'd still have placed at 35:65 even if Ike didn't have a free dash attack on him. It's just that for Wario (And Squirtle) it's kind of a big thing, you know?

I'll concur with you that they help but they don't make a gigantic splash.