Ike: The Detailed Match-Up Guide's Number Debate Topic

[YagamiLight]

dtilting a Snake will be tough. Snake simply has to air dodge before he gets into dtilt's range and the cyber thingie will block dtilt.

That depends pretty highly on position and he pretty much has to be recovering from straight down to hit with the Cypher so airdodging in most cases means he'll have to C4. Which brings it all back to the fact that Snake is taking a ton of damage from the C4 and the fair.

 

[Ussi]

That depends pretty highly on position and he pretty much has to be recovering from straight down to hit with the Cypher so airdodging in most cases means he'll have to C4. Which brings it all back to the fact that Snake is taking a ton of damage from the C4 and the fair.

There should be a point where Snake can AD out of Cypher to grab the ledge. Maybe there is some exploitable dtilting frames, idk really.

oh and about the C4 gimping aether. THERE is a spot where Aether will be out of range of the C4. But you need to make Aether abuse all the horizontal range it can get

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) None of those matches should ever go on to beyond 70-30. Consider as well the free Fair on Falco from a stage side grab is pretty much a killer at low percents.

2) For all practical purposes, yes it's equal.

Throwing that grenade is risky as it's just time to be spiked.

Ike could be going for a dtilt spike as Snake's cypher doesn't sweetspot the ledge.

3) Alright, well enough. Can't argue with that.

4) MK's advantage isn't 50-50, we've established this. It's in MK's favor. The question is, how much? And as for Snake, you aren't factoring in his poor air game either. It's definitely not 40-60 no range.

5) Alright, they become outdated fast. But the speed at which they outdate is slower as the metagame goes on.

1. Your just being ignorant to Ike's weaknesses now. That Fair is nothing you are once again over rating grab releases. Plus are you forgetting that falco gets a free spike on Ike if he chain grabs him once?

2. That grenade is under a different scenario trying to emphasize how snake can control his C4 a lot better than melee link's bombs.

The D tilt thing won't reach if the snake recovers the right way even when he is under the stage. Plus as ussi said he can just avoid it.

4. It's higher than 45-55 and you have no reason to believe other wise. MK out preforms Ike in almost every aspect of the game.

For snake of course I'm factoring in snakes bad air game but he isn't going to be using this against Ike. Snake has many other things against Ike though and goes equal with him in almost everything that he doesn't have the advantage in.

5. Not really because tier list change just as fast as people change. This is how it is no matter how much the metagame advances.

 

[Ussi]

Light, try explaining how Ike plans to get Snake into the air to dominate him

 

[YagamiLight]

oh and about the C4 gimping aether. THERE is a spot where Aether will be out of range of the C4. But you need to make Aether abuse all the horizontal range it can get

Oh, good to know.

1. Your just being ignorant to Ike's weaknesses now. That Fair is nothing you are once again over rating grab releases. Plus are you forgetting that falco gets a free spike on Ike if he chain grabs him once?

2. That grenade is under a different scenario trying to emphasize how snake can control his C4 a lot better than melee link's bombs.

The D tilt thing won't reach if the snake recovers the right way even when he is under the stage. Plus as ussi said he can just avoid it.

4. It's higher than 45-55 and you have no reason to believe other wise. MK out preforms Ike in almost every aspect of the game.

For snake of course I'm factoring in snakes bad air game but he isn't going to be using this against Ike. Snake has many other things against Ike though and goes equal with him in almost everything that he doesn't have the advantage in.

5. Not really because tier list change just as fast as people change. This is how it is no matter how much the metagame advances.

1. That Fair is nothing? Please. It's rather crucial as past low percents it's fatal. And of course I'm not forgetting that Falco CGs Ike to a spike, obviously, since I have the match-up as quite bad for Ike.

2. Alright, he gets more time than Link in the choosing of the bomb jump. So what, it's still low.

Okay, he recovers the "right way". Hey, a walk-off Dair happens. Cool stuff. It's lose-lose for Snake.

3) I don't see why you fail to accept 45-55 as a possibility. Meta Knight outperforms Ike in some areas, duh. So? How much does he outperform is the main question.

4) Snake sometimes will simply HAVE to use his air game. That's already bad. And yes, Ike wins out in some things, Snake wins out in others and the rest are equal. That's what we define as a neutral match-up.

5) And people are going to be changing less as time advances.

Light, try explaining how Ike plans to get Snake into the air to dominate him

If Snake follows AB's plan of recovering up high then he's in the air isn't he? Also Dthrow or Up Tilt'll do the job.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1. That Fair is nothing? Please. It's rather crucial as past low percents it's fatal. And of course I'm not forgetting that Falco CGs Ike to a spike, obviously, since I have the match-up as quite bad for Ike.

2. Alright, he gets more time than Link in the choosing of the bomb jump. So what, it's still low.

Okay, he recovers the "right way". Hey, a walk-off Dair happens. Cool stuff. It's lose-lose for Snake.

3) I don't see why you fail to accept 45-55 as a possibility. Meta Knight outperforms Ike in some areas, duh. So? How much does he outperform is the main question.

4) Snake sometimes will simply HAVE to use his air game. That's already bad. And yes, Ike wins out in some things, Snake wins out in others and the rest are equal. That's what we define as a neutral match-up.

5) And people are going to be changing less as time advances.



If Snake follows AB's plan of recovering up high then he's in the air isn't he? Also Dthrow or Up Tilt'll do the job.

That area where Ike's aether is safe from C4 is only true in some stages. In battle field and smashville he won't dodge it.

1. It is nothing in retrospect and 35-65 is not a bad match up.

2. whats low? Who the hell was talking about high and low...

Except the cypher hits Ike try again. Plus the snake could then drop his cypher and C4. You won't have time to hit him with a Fair now. Unless the snake is ******** he is going to make it back in this situation which is very hard to get him in given the snake isn't ******** once again.

3. Because its not and you have nothing to back up this claim with. He out preforms him in every area or ties to MK. I would say vastly out preforms and you can not refute this with proof. Just simple o if Ike does this or omg thats not true.

4. except its not like this. Snake has many more things on Ike than Ike does on him.

5. Thats just dumb the rate at which people change is always the same except for the first few months of the game.

Snake isn't that bad in the air he just has to focus on getting back to the ground and he will do it because Ike is not a juggler. I've already told you of the options he has to do this and I will not do it again you can go back and read about it in this thread. If you don't change the match up from a nuetral then your just being stubborn.

Actually if you know how to use snake he has a much better air game than Ike because of how far he can travel and all the little things he can use to defend him self on the way down.

 

[illinialex24]

So what has been the discussion on Jigglypuff (if there has been any at all since this morning).

 

[YagamiLight]

That area where Ike's aether is safe from C4 is only true in some stages. In battle field and smashville he won't dodge it.

1. It is nothing in retrospect and 35-65 is not a bad match up.

2. whats low? Who the hell was talking about high and low...

Except the cypher hits Ike try again. Plus the snake could then drop his cypher and C4. You won't have time to hit him with a Fair now. Unless the snake is ******** he is going to make it back in this situation which is very hard to get him in given the snake isn't ******** once again.

3. Because its not and you have nothing to back up this claim with. He out preforms him in every area or ties to MK. I would say vastly out preforms and you can not refute this with proof. Just simple o if Ike does this or omg thats not true.

4. except its not like this. Snake has many more things on Ike than Ike does on him.

5. Thats just dumb the rate at which people change is always the same except for the first few months of the game.

Snake isn't that bad in the air he just has to focus on getting back to the ground and he will do it because Ike is not a juggler. I've already told you of the options he has to do this and I will not do it again you can go back and read about it in this thread. If you don't change the match up from a nuetral then your just being stubborn.

Actually if you know how to use snake he has a much better air game than Ike because of how far he can travel and all the little things he can use to defend him self on the way down.

We shall be continuing this at a later date.

 

[MysticKenji]

Jiggs got ignored sorry

 

[XACE-K]

So what has been the discussion on Jigglypuff (if there has been any at all since this morning).

Everybody got bored of arguing about Jiggs and moved on to arguing about MK and DDD.

Just say some sort of BS like Jiggs has a super tech that makes the match-up 100:0 Jiggs favor and we'll argue about her again.

 

[Kinzer]

Or better yet, why not take this to the Battlefield Illinalex?

Nothing says matchups like playing it out yourself...I'll be on the AiB Freechat ladder.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

yah nothing says match ups like playing it out your self on wifi...

We shall be continuing this at a later date.

either change them or continue debating the match ups. You said your self that you listen to w/e anyone has to say about them.

 

[illinialex24]

Or better yet, why not take this to the Battlefield Illinalex?

Nothing says matchups like playing it out yourself...I'll be on the AiB Freechat ladder.

So me and Kinzer played it out with almost no lag on wifi. I didn't see any real button delay or any input delay, and I recorded the matches. They should be up soon and then everyone can make conclusions.

 

[Kinzer]

Or not really, a matchup isn't decided on two people.

 

[YagamiLight]

either change them or continue debating the match ups. You said your self that you listen to w/e anyone has to say about them.

I already extended the ranges 5 points a piece for both Snake and Meta Knight on your behest.

Or not really, a matchup isn't decided on two people.

Is that a sign that it didn't go so well? Did you grab release?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm going to be judging how good you actually are kinzer not the match up lol.

edit: then extend them for hero and Ussi now. I asked for more than 5 points you can't just throw me a bone and expect me to shut up.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, I only lost a couple of matches if I recall, and one of them I Nair suicided on, it sucked.

 

[illinialex24]

Well, I only lost a couple of matches if I recall, and one of them I Nair suicided on, it sucked.

I think we lost around an even number of matches and it was fairly even throughout. And I know 1 set or so doesn't decide a huge amount, but as far as whats uploaded, its what we got.

 

[Kinzer]

It wen't alright I suppose Light. Illi has some okay stuff recorded... I Aether spiked him even thoguh I landed on the stage.

And then tehre was an Eruption kill.

And some mroe stuff I can't recall...except a D-throw Star K.O. XD

 

[illinialex24]

It wen't alright I suppose Light. Illi has some okay stuff recorded... I Aether spiked him even thoguh I landed on the stage.

And then tehre was an Eruption kill.

And some mroe stuff I can't recall...except a D-throw Star K.O. XD

We both did "meh" at times. I ran out of jumps randomly twice in the set, which almost never happens. But I think we did show why at distance Ike dominates but in close range, Ike better watch out.

 

[YagamiLight]

edit: then extend them for hero and Ussi now. I asked for more than 5 points you can't just throw me a bone and expect me to shut up.

Hero and Ussi both didn't go past your own score for Meta Knight and Hero agrees with me on the Snake issue.

What I really want to do is achieve some sort of compromise from both sides, would you be against this? I'm rather tired of this.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Hero and Ussi both didn't go past your own score for Meta Knight and Hero agrees with me on the Snake issue.

What I really want to do is achieve some sort of compromise from both sides, would you be against this? I'm rather tired of this.

I believe the compromise would be 40-60 I'm not against this and if you take off the range and just put 40-60 I won't argue it. I just think that 45-55 trough 35-65 looks more in accurate than 40-60.

Hero said it was no less than 40-60 trough 30-70 and Ussi said it was 35-65. I agree with hero pretty much.

edit: I want to see what hero has to say on snake though because everything you said was pretty much shut down as snakes advantage or a tie.

 

[HeroMystic]

I must be the popular name-drop of the day.

I'll give my analysis of Ike vs Snake in a bit.

 

[YagamiLight]

I believe the compromise would be 40-60 I'm not against this and if you take off the range and just put 40-60 I won't argue it. I just think that 45-55 trough 35-65 looks more in accurate than 40-60.

Hero said it was no less than 40-60 trough 30-70 and Ussi said it was 35-65. I agree with hero pretty much.

edit: I want to see what hero has to say on snake though because everything you said was pretty much shut down as snakes advantage or a tie.

Alright, compromise accepted. It's listed as 40:60 now.

Most of what I said turned out to be a tie, except for a few givens.

 

[HeroMystic]

I didn't bother reading all of this mess about Ike vs Snake since it's all over the place. So if I reiterate something, my mistake.

Ike's advantages: More power, a (somewhat) better air game, more range.
Snake's Advantages: Ridiculous weight, Ridiculous priority, awesome stage control.

Ike is the most powerful character in this game. Yes, that also means he is more powerful than Snake. However, Snake is the 3rd heaviest character in this game while Ike is borderline-heavy weight. That pretty much evens out the power match-up.

It's not hard for Ike to get inside Snake's range. What's wrong is staying INSIDE the range while Ike's moves all have some awesome knockback. Once Snake is out, he's able to go back to his spacing and stage control.

This is essentially what Ike will have a problem with, Snake's stage control. Ike has no way of stopping Snake from ****** the stage without being up close and personal. Snake can also immediately move away from Ike with the Motarslide (DACUS) if he finds himself being ***** too much.

Snake's jabs are nothing if he's not able to use them. Their priority doesn't beat Ike's range, and while Snake's tilts are close, they don't beat Ike's F-air range. Once Snake is hit, his rhythm dies out, and that's when Ike can start beating him down with jabs, grabs, aerials (although Snake's N-air is the greatest sex kick I've ever since... they're not disjointed, therefore Ike's F-air beats it), and tilts.

Offstage? Snake is a pansy. He'll always recover high and try to scare you with an offensive C4. That can easily be avoided and Snake can be punished for it while he's in the animation of setting the C4 off. Ike can knock him off the stage again to repeat this process, or to go for the kill.

If Ike is offstage, Snake can't do much about it besides dropping a nikita on his ***, which actually helps his recovery but also racks up damage and can potentially kill depending on the damage percentage. He can also spam Up-Smash to make it tons harder to get back onto the stage unscathed, and he can also plant a mine/c4 at the edge to tempt you to jump over it so Snake can get Ike caught in a N-air, B-air, or U-tilt.

Snake's aerials does not beat Ike's unless he has made poor spacing. None of his aerials are disjointed unlike his ****ing tilts, meaning Ike's sword beats Snake's feet. This is essentially why Ike does better in the air than Snake does, especially since Snake has tons of lag from aerials.

Snake's ground game, however, beats Ike's. I believe Snake's jab beats Ike's jab just from priority alone, and Snake's f-tilt just -barely- beats Ike's f-tilt. Snake's U-tilt is just ****ing ridiculous though.

That doesn't mean he can't be approached though. Ike can still use the N-air to jab combo, and nothing is stopping Ike from using jab cancel into more jabs or grabs. He can the use D-throw to throw Snake in the air and attack from there. When Ike gets going, Snake can't do **** about it except take the onslaught and get outta there.

Snake's F-smash comes out faster than Ike's and can kill Ike early. Ike's F-Smash is more powerful and can kill Snake very early. Ike's F-tilt has the power of a smash attack and is more powerful than Snake's F-tilt, just with less range. Snake's U-tilt is pretty freaken powerful though, and makes up for Ike's powerful F-tilt.

The main problem here for Ike is getting past Snake's stage control and spacing ability. After that, Ike can proceed to overwhelm Snake. Ike has a MUCH better pressure game than Snake does, which is why his close-combat abilities pretty much suck due to ALL his abilities having to deal with spacing. As for Ike, he has QD to cover distance, eruption as a better version of counter, and counter itself, to deal with keeping the momentum in his favor.

By the way, Snake is easy to spike when he has to recover low.

I personally feel it's 55:45, but I can go with 60:40 as general consensus since I could care less.

 

[V3RMILLION]

What game are you guys playing? Those numbers are horrible. Game & Watch 50/50? I'll MM anyone of you 100 dollars, your Ike vs my Game & Watch.

 

[HeroMystic]

I defeated a G&W in a tournament today just by spacing.

Match-up ratios don't mean **** in a realistic setting.

 

[error13]

ya i didnt know
ike was so broken
i mean with all
these tournaments
he's winning

looks like i should
start maining him

 

[V3RMILLION]

Right? I've never lost to an Ike yet. With anyone. I can own his face off with Fox for christ's sake. I destroyed lots of Ike's in a tournament I went to.

 

[HeroMystic]

You know, instead of making silly "lol" posts, you can debate these numbers.

Otherwise, stop spamming the thread.

EDIT: I don't care if you destroyed Ikes. I also destroyed Ikes with my Mario. Does that mean he has an 80:20 match-up between him?

 

[V3RMILLION]

You know, instead of making silly "lol" posts, you can debate these numbers.

Otherwise, stop spamming the thread.

EDIT: I don't care if you destroyed Ikes. I also destroyed Ikes with my Mario. Does that mean he has an 80:20 match-up between him?

Why do you want me to debate the numbers if, according to you, they don't mean anything in a realistic situation? I'm letting you know that in my own "realistic situations," Game & Watch destroys Ike.

 

[furiousduffmanx]

You know, instead of making silly "lol" posts, you can debate these numbers.

Otherwise, stop spamming the thread.

EDIT: I don't care if you destroyed Ikes. I also destroyed Ikes with my Mario. Does that mean he has an 80:20 match-up between him?

the fact that you beat a GW with spacing doesn't make it 50-50 then. No one uses ike because he is just a garbage character. these numbers are not even close to how they should be. All ike mains are ignorant

 

[HeroMystic]

Why do you want me to debate the numbers if, according to you, they don't mean anything in a realistic situation? I'm letting you know that in my own "realistic situations," Game & Watch destroys Ike.

I really don't care actually. I'm just simply rebutting that fact that you said that you destroyed Ikes. I can say the same thing, just vise versa.

Use statistical evidence when you want to claim advantage against a character... because the realistic setting doesn't mean ****.

the fact that you beat a GW with spacing doesn't make it 50-50 then. No one uses ike because he is just a garbage character. these numbers are not even close to how they should be. All ike mains are ignorant

Do not generalize the Ike mains when several Ike mains here have stated again and again that these match-up numbers are WRONG.

Now either lay some statistical evidence or gtfo.

 

[V3RMILLION]

Here's some statistical evidence, Ikes have placed in how many High Calibur tournaments? Does zero even count as a percentage? Why do you keep asking for statistical evidence if it doesn't even matter to you anyway? The fact is that Ike doesn't place in tournaments because he isn't a good character.

 

[HeroMystic]

That is irrelevant to character match-ups.

 

[furiousduffmanx]

Well Arturito burrito seems to have kinda best ike in Texas. I beat him so many times with captain falcon even.... My GW destroys him. Wario will own him...
Now are you trying to say there are ikes out there that win major tournaments?? who do they play kids with wii motes?

 

[V3RMILLION]

No its not. It means Ike loses to most characters.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I think it's more because Ike is underplayed and hard to master. That's why hardly any Ikes make it to a competitive setting. He's by no means Top or even High Tier, but he's not a "bad" character.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hurray for people not getting my point.

Oh well, I suppose I'm done here. I truly regret suggesting this thread be made now.

Light, sorry for the trouble. This was a bad idea.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

To many small paragraphs *replies in quote*

I didn't bother reading all of this mess about Ike vs Snake since it's all over the place. So if I reiterate something, my mistake.

Ike's advantages: More power, a (somewhat) better air game, more range.
Snake's Advantages: Ridiculous weight, Ridiculous priority, awesome stage control.
You forgot to give snake better camping, recovery, defensive game, and damage building.

Ike is the most powerful character in this game. Yes, that also means he is more powerful than Snake. However, Snake is the 3rd heaviest character in this game while Ike is borderline-heavy weight. That pretty much evens out the power match-up.
This does even it out I agree.

It's not hard for Ike to get inside Snake's range. What's wrong is staying INSIDE the range while Ike's moves all have some awesome knockback. Once Snake is out, he's able to go back to his spacing and stage control.
What does Ike have to get inside snake's range? Keep in mind that nade camping is one of the reasons people argue snake to be neutral against MK.

This is essentially what Ike will have a problem with, Snake's stage control. Ike has no way of stopping Snake from ****** the stage without being up close and personal. Snake can also immediately move away from Ike with the Motarslide (DACUS) if he finds himself being ***** too much.
Once again I agree.

Snake's jabs are nothing if he's not able to use them. Their priority doesn't beat Ike's range, and while Snake's tilts are close, they don't beat Ike's F-air range. Once Snake is hit, his rhythm dies out, and that's when Ike can start beating him down with jabs, grabs, aerials (although Snake's N-air is the greatest sex kick I've ever since... they're not disjointed, therefore Ike's F-air beats it), and tilts.
This is really just how to beat him not what Ike has on snake.

Offstage? Snake is a pansy. He'll always recover high and try to scare you with an offensive C4. That can easily be avoided and Snake can be punished for it while he's in the animation of setting the C4 off. Ike can knock him off the stage again to repeat this process, or to go for the kill.
Ike's jumps are horrible. If the snake can get punished for dropping a C4 like this then he probably shouldn't have cyphered and could have just jumped onto the stage. If snake was supposed to use the cypher then Ike shouldn't be able to punish the C4 animation because he will be to high.

If Ike is offstage, Snake can't do much about it besides dropping a nikita on his ***, which actually helps his recovery but also racks up damage and can potentially kill depending on the damage percentage. He can also spam Up-Smash to make it tons harder to get back onto the stage unscathed, and he can also plant a mine/c4 at the edge to tempt you to jump over it so Snake can get Ike caught in a N-air, B-air, or U-tilt.
Everything you said after snake can't do much contradicts it lol. You really did say a lot of things that snake can use to edge guard Ike except you left out cooked nades and C4 being able to edge guard and stage spike aether every time in certain stages and very hard to avoid in the ones that it isn't 100%.

Snake's aerials does not beat Ike's unless he has made poor spacing. None of his aerials are disjointed unlike his ****ing tilts, meaning Ike's sword beats Snake's feet. This is essentially why Ike does better in the air than Snake does, especially since Snake has tons of lag from aerials.
I agree that Ike has a better air game but I don't see any reason for snake to get into the air and none of Ike's attacks juggle him into the air.

Snake's ground game, however, beats Ike's. I believe Snake's jab beats Ike's jab just from priority alone, and Snake's f-tilt just -barely- beats Ike's f-tilt. Snake's U-tilt is just ****ing ridiculous though.
All of them out speed Ike's counter parts and many other moves as well.

That doesn't mean he can't be approached though. Ike can still use the N-air to jab combo, and nothing is stopping Ike from using jab cancel into more jabs or grabs. He can the use D-throw to throw Snake in the air and attack from there. When Ike gets going, Snake can't do **** about it except take the onslaught and get outta there.
Don't factor in Ike's jab cancels. All of this is easily countered by grenades sure snake will take damage with Ike (if he doesn't shield drop it) but he will reset a position where Ike once again has to get past the camping.

Snake's F-smash comes out faster than Ike's and can kill Ike early. Ike's F-Smash is more powerful and can kill Snake very early. Ike's F-tilt has the power of a smash attack and is more powerful than Snake's F-tilt, just with less range. Snake's U-tilt is pretty freaken powerful though, and makes up for Ike's powerful F-tilt.
Actually in terms of weight and power Snake's Fsmash will kill Ike 2% earlier than Ike's will kill snake, and snake has a much easier time building up damage every Ftilt is 21%. Ftilt also has less speed since snake's tilt is as fast as Ike's jab. Utilt is stronger than Ike's Ftilt as well.

The main problem here for Ike is getting past Snake's stage control and spacing ability. After that, Ike can proceed to overwhelm Snake. Ike has a MUCH better pressure game than Snake does, which is why his close-combat abilities pretty much suck due to ALL his abilities having to deal with spacing. As for Ike, he has QD to cover distance, eruption as a better version of counter, and counter itself, to deal with keeping the momentum in his favor. Ike doesn't actually have a reliable way of getting past snake's camping. While Ike has much better pressure game than snake (not saying much they both aren't stellar) Snake has a much much better defensive game.

His close combat abilities don't actually fall to far behind Ike's thanks to his powerful and speedy moves he has much better oos options.

By the way, Snake is easy to spike when he has to recover low.
if he has to recover low. this is avoidable first by DI. Second by air dodging at the right time. And third by using his C4 to take a little damage instead of flat out dieing.

I personally feel it's 55:45, but I can go with 60:40 as general consensus since I could care less.

No one actually believes its 5-5 now. This better get deleted.

edit: omg don't believe those guys I own them day and night. This saturday your all going to see my Ike ****** duffman so hard and then afterwards a video of him eating a spoonful of cinamon.