Ike Boards General/Q&A Thread

[Ussi]

I want to see ledgehop bair in action... It sounds unpunishable onblock too if they get pushed off stage yea?

 

[san.]

I guess, but ledgehop fair (backwards hitting hitbox) is better for that. I mean against opponents recovering from offstage, not onstage.

It's the fastest way to hit people recovering right above the ledge. (Olimar, DK) and if you do it immediately you're invincible. You don't really need to be invincible since bair outranges everything anyways, except against something like shuttle loop.

You can ledgehop bair and land onstage.


I've been looking into air release at the edge -> buffered double jump fair to see if it hits. DK gets hit regardless lol. walk off fair hits at frame 48, and most air releases are 51 frames. I was thinking a double jump buffered fair might reach people. Even if they aren't true combos for some characters, at most they'll only be a few frames off against the massive hitbox that is fair.

I've been looking into the same thing for platform double jump fair after grab release. It may work on Olimar I guess?

I've also been trying to see how viable jab to dsmash is. It might actually be useful on the lightweights above 120-130 or so.

 

[Helix King]

You think that's bad, I remember being told what tier Ganon was in.

I meant being under Sonic >: (

 

[disasterABDUL]

I don't think gimping is much the issue-- San's right
I have a much harder time recovering vs D3.

It's just that MK shuts Ike's options down in many other ways. He can punish basically perfect spacing and even the safest play-- harder than anyone else can. We have range and disjoint on our moves, but MK has both of those plus speed-- he can pretty much react to anything we do and punish during our ending lag.

+ he's short, and Ike already has trouble against short characters. Jabs aren't super reliable and you're almost lucky to make a retreating Bair his even a shield.

so.... what CAN we do against metaknight?

 

[-RedX-]

so.... what CAN we do against metaknight?

Being a better player.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Well if u want inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ophVi8IoEhA

I still believe he's beatable, albeit no doubt MK is hard (very?!). It's not as molesting as DDD VS DK or bowser.

Wait, does MK really have invincibility at the start of his shuttle loop? doesn't really seem like it.

 

[-RedX-]

Only grounded shuttle loop is invincible on startup.

 

[theeboredone]

I know it's a bit silly as how I mentioned earlier about staying centered vs MK...but if you are on the edge. I like to actually turn around, playing a bit dumb. If they attack me, and cause me to go off the stage, you can nail him with that b-air immediately.

 

[san.]

Only grounded shuttle loop is invincible on startup.

After trying out MK's grounded shuttle loop, it's fairly annoying that MK can still get hit during like the first 4 frames.

I hate grounded shuttle loop because I never DI it correctly, and end up going straight up, when it shouldn't be killing us until like 170.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Need to fast fall nair less.

I was actually trying non fast fall nairs. Works really well when both players are in the air. Maybe when they are below you too? Not sure but I like non fast fall nairs.

@Ussi: wasn't there a Japanese Ike vid linked here some time ago that managed to land ledgehop bair on an MK using shuttle loop?

 

[Ussi]

I guess, but ledgehop fair (accidental delete)

I've also been trying to see how viable jab to dsmash is. It might actually be useful on the lightweights above 120-130 or so.

First part: but you can do bair later than fair.. Like stall thier shield and shield stab better..

2nd part: only use dsmash has over utilt is you can charge it....

I don't remember the charge release but its probably fast...

 

[Berserker Swordsman]

I use DSmash to reassert my dominance over my opponent to punish air dodges after some solid edgeguarding (as a mixup/random move to throw out sort of thing) and nothing more.

 

[Ussi]

I actually can see dsmash working on the ledge... First hit tries to hit them off ledge.. 2nd hits them after the AD... I mean it IS slow enough probably lololol

 

[san.]

Yeah, just keep in mind how punishable the bair onstage is. It could work as a situational mixup. I usually do ledgehop nair, because if you do it fast enough, you land when the hitbox goes behind you slightly, and ledgehop nair combos into jab at low percents.

Ledgehop bair is fast, and it hits very far offstage, and we can land back onstage unless we're hitting low, so it's just an added thing we can do when hopping back to the stage anyways.

dsmash I would ONLY use after jab, at like 130 on lightweights (MK, Kirby, Jigglypuff, G&W, etc). from like 100-130 jab->utilt will be better, of course. It reaches farther and it's easier to combo after a jab.

Jab1 has more combo potential the closer your opponent is when jab hits. If you hit at the tip of jab1, just go to jab2 because it's not going to combo into anything.

 

[Ussi]

If they are in your face they can/will probably end up behins you if you jab 2 so only jab cancel and be ready to reverse jab.

Bair and fair are the same in punishablity as they both have 22 frames of landing lag.

 

[Zatchiel]

Jab1 has more combo potential the closer your opponent is when jab hits. If you hit at the tip of jab1, just go to jab2 because it's not going to combo into anything.

What about on Falco's side+B? He lags quite a bit afterward, and I normally follow up with Ftilt, boost grab, or just finishing the Jab combo.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

I don't really see jab > Dsmash working because of floaties being floaty. MAybe you can catch them if they see a utilt coming and try to DI down instead, but what do I know?

Zatch hit with the ponies. Seen that physics presentation on it? Pretty funny.

 

[san.]

No Jam, it combos, even easier than utilt and has more horizontal range so it's more reliable. It's only usable on lightweights because lightweights would be the only ones to get killed by dsmash. They should have made the first hit powerful and the second hit weak. The first hit comes out faster and lasts for a smaller amount of time. Second hit of dsmash is almost as powerful as usmash.

 

[Ussi]

:| all they needed to do was reduce the angle dsmash sends in and it would have killed so easily..

However.... If someone is DIing to the side cause of jab > utilt... They might DI INTO a bad (for them) angle dsmash making it kill them..

Imo just the risk of that might make jab > utilt even stronger after jab > dsmash gets out there..

 

[san.]

Probably true. There's no use if you use it at percents where it's going to kill. Utilt could probably kill earlier if they don't momentum cancel or DI. I wouldn't even think of using dsmash before 130% cause it's DSMASH we're talking about.

 

[Ussi]

Yea but against someone smart.. They shouls be DIing...

Dsmash imo is hard to see coming from the animation.. While utilt you can see much easier.
Seriously uncharged dsmash always catches me offguard... Maybe its a sterotype against move that shouldn't be used. Still i think messing with a person's mind in how to DI will be a nice niche to dsmash..

 

[Berserker Swordsman]

Hmm, should they be grounded when we start the jab? Because if they're already off the ground (say about Ike's knee or higher), I'm guessing they could probably jump before DSmash connects. Or is DSmash really that fast?

 

[Zatchiel]

Dsmash was frame 13 on the first hit, just like Utilt, but with more horizontal range on the initial hit. It's going to be quite hard for me to do this since I use my C-stick on Tilts :V But shouldn't Utilt be killing earlier? Plus, the vertical reach should guarantee at least some contact if they attempt to jump out(not that it's a true combo, though).

 

[Teh Brettster]

Went to a small tourney yesterday. Got 3rd in teams, 5th in singles.
Singles was strange. I was the only match without a bye, and I also didn't get a bye when I went to losers, so I played a guy in losers who hadn't won a game yet, and I had already won 2 sets. Weird. Lost to Denti and Infinity. For how out-of-practice I am, I did really well in my sets vs both of them.
Almost got my entry fees back, that's all I was aiming for.

 

[san.]

Nice Brett. That bad seed messed a lot of things up.

 

[Ussi]

Jabbing someone in the air gives them more time to jump instead of failing to jump and ending up in landing lag.

Jab someone in air = jab 1 cancel, be ready to reverse jab.. Or just basic jab combo. Shouldn't really do slow jabs cause too easy to get out being high up already. (course only applies to floaties i would think)

 

[Heartstring]

hey guys, whats occuring?
so, my ike is better than it used to be, my only real weakness is misfire these days XD

 

[AN(M)ist]

You know, I think what developers had in mind for dsmash was as an anti-backroll move. That's why it seems dsmash has more damage behind it; it stays longer as well.

I've tried jab to dsmash before, dsmash's first hit covers utilt's lower hitbox at frame 13, with some more extended horizontally, but if opponent is high, then you will be screwed since he will have like a second to punish you. come to think of it, utilt doesn't always hit ppl at frame 13. frame 13 is when the hitbox begins at the ground. It's more like frame 15 when the hitbox is near Ike's head.

But then, I have also seen (more than occasionally) opponents getting hit by utilt's lower hitbox after jab.

How about doing some reality checks:
~ dsmash's first hit is just a little bigger (in height and length) than utilt's first hitbox, both of which start at frame 13. After this, utilts continues going upwards while dsmash goes behind Ike.
~ dsmash's first hit does 1% more damage than utilt but much less knockback. However, dsmash's knockback tends to be more powerful at higher percents (the net knockback after 100% is more-or-less the same. maybe some 5 percent difference). In a nutshell, dsmash's first hit isn't likely to kill at all at <=100%, although it may give a little greater damage.
~ dsmash's tip shoots more horizontally and hilt shoots more vertically. utilt is purely vertical.
~dsmash leaves you more open for punishment. It like gives them 20 extra frames.
~dsmash has transcended priority, so if someone has an attack that comes out really fast, utilt will likely clank but dsmash will go through.

One thing I have noticed with dsmash - it kinda evades grab when someone is trying to grab Ike from a nearly close range. It happened to me when I charged the dsmash and snake tried to grab me.

btw, has anyone ever noticed dsmash tripping at any range? wth does tripping rate do?

 

[Heartstring]

dsmash isnt so much a bad move (ok so i lie, it is) as the fact that we have much better options for everything
you say its meant for an anti backroll move (makes sense) but the usmash is more powerful, has a larger hitbox, finishes faster and covers everything above us too
most people say its good because its fast. but actually the utilt comes out at the same time and covers a larger range in front of you

but youre right, we do sem to be immune to grabs duing the attack

 

[Ussi]

Can't do usmash out of jab as a combo..

But Ike can do jab > reverse fsmash for roll behinds already -_-

 

[AN(M)ist]

Only thing I see that dsmash has over usmash is that it comes out faster, stays longer behind Ike and ends faster after the last hitbox (Seriously, have someone shield the last hitbox of both usmash and dsmash separately. Dsmash's cool down after the last hitbox is relatively faster). So if someone is in front and backrolls on reaction, dsmash has more chances of hit since the lag between the first and second hit is 16 frames. Also, if someone perfect shields the second hit and lets go of the shield, dsmash's lingering hitbox will still hit him.

Dsmash humbles w.r.t everything else against usmash.

I want to know what you meant by using dsmash near the ledge Ussi? how will it overlast an AD again?

 

[Heartstring]

usmash has some nifty IASA frames on it that allow you to dash away or do anything if you time it correctly, before the england lag even finishes

also, perfect shielding hitboxes doesnt quite work like that iirc. for example, powershield a sex-kick, even though the hitbox is still there for other characters, it wont affect you any more

 

[Ussi]

Its not really to outlast an AD but hit them as they AD into the ground

 

[jamlosingthegame]

the england lag even finishes

I lol'd. 10lulz

 

[AN(M)ist]

o yeah. sorry about the shield statement. i remember shielding ZSS and shiek's sexkick and then punishing them after dropping the shield. Didn't realize their hitbox stayed since it didn't affect me anymore.

 

[Ussi]

Ugh... Anyone wanna recommend a manga or anime they really like? (so much anime for iphone sites xD) Summer break has me doing nothing since my laptop broke ._.

 

[Zatchiel]

I seriously need help on ledge recovery with Ike. I normally drop from the ledge > Aether to clear some room, then I plan something out. A good deal of the ratio, I get sent back offstage, or punished lightly. I tend to ledgehop when there's room, but other than that, I'm a sucker when trying to get back onstage.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Our guide has some pretty good tips on recovering with aether. How about you check it out?

@Ussi: Naruto Shippuuden. Tht's wat I've been watching all this time.

 

[san.]

Ugh... Anyone wanna recommend a manga or anime they really like? (so much anime for iphone sites xD) Summer break has me doing nothing since my laptop broke ._.

Wish I had an active top 10 of my favorite manga. Maybe you'll like something like Angel Densetsu.

Check out the Korean Webtoons when you get a chance (Trace,Noblesse, Kubera, Tower of God, Magician, etc)

 

[Ussi]

Well i'll check out Angel Densetsu for now. When it comes to taste in manga, i like anything that isn't dumb.. Just need a plot

Lol Mist, i read majority of mainstream already (Naruto, One Piece and bleach [i don't know why... it got real dumb])... Though i guess there is more that i haven't really felt like going through... (trying to catch up 200+ chapters is a daunting task)

If the webtoons aren't hard to read (at least 4 panels a page... Cause its a slow load with a phone) i'll give them a shot too.