If You Could Patch SSB4...?

[MarioManTAW]

Heavy Nerf: Bayonetta
Nerf: Mario Diddy Kong
Slight Nerf: Cloud ZSS Fox Rosalina And Luma Sonic
Slight Buff Pit Dark Pit Corrin Lucario Peach Villager Little Mac Ryu Duck Hunt Sheik Pikachu
Buff Ness Lucas Olimar Greninja Falco Shulk ROB Samus Mr Game and Watch Toon Link Roy Meta Knight Ike Jiggs King D3 Link
Heavy Buff Robin Luigi Zelda Palutena Yoshi

Those are some... interesting opinions...

 

[Mr.ケイ]

Notable Buffs I thought

-Increase the hitboxes of the clean hit of his B-air a bit and lower on the Y-axis the hitbox around his feet a bit to back hit with it much easier. (Hitbox 4.8/3.2 >> 5.6/4.2; Y-axis 0 >> -0.9/0) Falco's B-air is actually quite bad due to how poorly placed the hitboxes are, resulting in it being very hard to land, despite having a bigger hitbox than Fox's, Fox's still has more reach and can safely apply shield pressure due to i's positioning.
- Fire Bird startup 20 >> 10. Falco's Up B is just a inferior version of Fox's, it travels half as far but still has the same start up and can't KO like Fox's, so make it's startup twice the speed. This specifically will drastically improve Falco as it'll allow him to be for aggressive off stage.
- Increase and lower slightly one of the hitboxes to the backswing of his U-tilt to make it so that targets behind and next to him don't fall out. (Hitbox 4/4/5 >> 5/4/5; X-axis -1/1/5, -1/1/6.2 >> -1.5/1/5, -1.5/1/6.2)

- Jab Startup 11 >> 7. Why so slow?
- D-tilt angle 80 >> 90, BKB/KBG 20/120 >> 60/80. This makes it into a better setup tool.
- N-air hitboxes on the final hit 4/4/6/6 >> 5/5/6/6. Multi-hits got buffed, but not to the final hits which are smaller, so this makes them bigger.
- F-air Damage 20%/4%/4%/4% >> 12%/8%/8%/10%. BKB 24/5/5/5 >> 48/25/25/25; KBG 95/80/80/96 >> 88/80/80/96. Active Frame of the sweetspot extended to whole duration; Also increase hitbox size of sweetspot 1.9 >> 2.9. FAF 53 >> 35; Landing Lag 23 >> 16; Autocancel 1-3, 50> >> 1-3, 32>. There is no point in her F-air being just an inferior versino of her B-air, this'll actually give it its own unique utility in her tool kit.
- B-air Autocancel 1-2, 52> >> 1-2, 40>. B-air con now autocancel out of SH making it a good out-of-shield option.
- Allow her to use Din's Fire in the air without entering the helpless state.
- Enable all direction ledge grabbing after reappearing from Farore's Wind. If Zelda appears above the ledge without snapping, even if the ledge is right in front of her, she won't grab it for several frames after appearing, resulting in her falling to her death.

- N-air startup 12 >> 6. A much better combo starter.
- B-air FAF 55 >> 45. Can now perform anther action in the air if you FH B-air, giving the attack more utility.
- U-air Startup 13 >> 11. Better at following in the air and performing 50/50s.
- Grab Range slightly increased. He actually has a shorter grab reach than marth, and he relies heavily on his grabs.

- Jab 1 Angle 361 >> 80; transition allowed frame 12 >> 10. Fixes her 1, 2 Jab.
- F-tilt BKB 20/20/30/30 >> 30; KBG 70/70/100/100 >> 100. Prevent enemies from hitting her out of her F-tilt at low %s.
- U-tilt (ground-targets) Angle 270 >> 85; BKB 40 >> 20. Cannot be teched, is also a KO tool on grounded opponents.
- D-tilt KBG 48 >> 60. A KO tool now, but not too absurd since it does have massive range and shield pressure for a frame 6 attack.
- U-smash gets new hitboxes attached to the 0x0 Bone ID positioned at +/-10 X-axis and 8 Y-axis with the pull in hit having a 110 angle. This'll make it function more in line with other U-smashes like Mewtwo's, or Zelda's.
- D-smash BKB 70 >> 46/48; KBG 46/48 >> 90. Is an actual smash attack that can kill.
- U-air multi-hit angle 80 >> 366. Enemies cannot fall out of the attack, making this attack function like other screwing aerials like Shiek's or Greninja's U-airs.
- Allow charging her Charge Shot in the air. Why is she the only one that cannot charge in the air.
- Increase Screw attack hitbox size of multi-hits 4 >> 8 while compensation X-axis stretch +/-5 >> +/-3. Adjust angle of multi hits: Hit 1 95 >> 110; Hits 2-4 96 >> 366/366/100; Hits 5-10 110/110/100 >> 366/366/100. Final hit of the Ground variant only angle 70 >> 80. These'll fix a lot of the issues of enemies falling out or not getting hit by all the middles hits that currently exist as well as give it kill power without letting her cheese too hard like ZSS.

Notable Nerfs I thought

- F-air Landing Lag 18 >> 24. A spiking aerial that also deals massive shield stun with this little landing? No...
- U-air startup 7 >> 8. Late hit duration 10-25 >> 10-15 without altering FAF. Autocancel 26> >> 36>
- B-air Landing Lag 14 >> 18. Too little landing for how much shield stun it does. I think this is a prettty universally consented nerf people want, but I'd also add that the lingering hit should be reduced also, getting rid of the stupid juggling it can do.
- Limit Cross Slash KBG 153 >> 140. Too powerful for how versatile this attack is, it's like having a frame 6 smash attack that you can unleash anywhere with more power than several smash attacks. This would nerf it's kill power by about 13%.
- Regular Climdhazard ledge snap changed to frame 12 with the untechable frames removed. With all the heavy nerf to his on stage neutral, he needs a little something in return.
- Aerial Finishing Touch Angle 80 >> 60; KBG 359/335 >> 347/330. This'll fix a lot of the team dynamic as it reduces the aerial variant's kill power by about 64%.
- Remove stat buffs while in Limit. I understand why he gains charge from dealing and taking damage, that's how it is in his game, but he does not gain passive buffs while his limit is charged.

- N-air FAF 33 >> 43. Too lagless for a move that ends on frame 25.
- F-air (Hit 1) FAF 27 >> 32. Remove F-air 1 gimps Bayo's get on certain characters.
- U-air angle 75 >> 70; BKB 40 >> 0; KBG 90 >> 120. FAF 30 >> 35. Prevents her from finishing elevators with an U-air kill, but it still retains it's regular kill power. It also has more lag so she can't spam U-airs on you and still hit you.
- B-air FAF 30 >> 40. This is as powerful as Marth's tipper B-air and has about the same reach...it needs more aerial lag.
- Severe degradation on un-triggered Witch Time (it only degrades when triggered). Counter trigger startup 5 >> 7 with its intangibility of 5-16 >> 7-9. Witch Time has more risk to it's use now.
- Separate the hitboxes of her Witch Twist between an Aerial-Target Variant and a Ground-Target variant. Aerial stays the same while Ground-Target only variant is small to remove absurd sharking. Rather than nerf the combo ability of her Witch twist, it just can't shark the ledge anymore so now you can ledge guard her.
- On top of the existing special landing lag, add a new category that results in using an normal aerial when landing adding that aerials landing lag on top of the accumulated special landing lag.

- D-tilt FAF 19 >> 21. BKB 15 >> 75. No longer converts to smashes but still retains aerial follow up capabilites.
- Monkey Flip Special Landing Lag 30 >> 40; Attack FAF 30 >> 40. Less safe to throw on shields.

I got plenty more notes, and for almost every character with most having actually been rigorously tested myself.

 

[Crystanium]

This would turn Rosa into a bottom 5 character. Please don't do this.

Well, everyone already knows Rosalina is carried by Luma. Luma is actually the one who puts in the effort while Rosalina stands in the sidelines.

Anyway, it seems from what I've learned is that Bayonetta can continuously perform her Witch Twist combo as long as she's hitting her opponent. No other character I'm aware of has this advantage, which is honestly unbalanced. So, I'd limit that. Or, everyone else can just have what Bayonetta has. Or, alternatively, once Bayonetta uses Witch Twist, she ends up in a helpless state like the majority of characters.

I think Cloud shouldn't receive his limit from getting hit. I don't see how getting hurt should benefit someone in any way. Cloud can keep his perks from limit. I don't care about that. I just think Cloud should have to charge his limit like everyone else has to charge their projectile.

Being a Samus main, here's some buffs I think she needs.

1. An additional jump, granting her 3 jumps and Screw Attack. She has the space jump, which lets her jump continuously in the air. Give her at least a third jump like how Kirby and King Dedede can. In fact, Pit can't even fly, yet he gets additional jumps. Lame.

2. Bring back Samus' kill moves. In Melee, down smash killed. In Brawl, down tilt killed. Super missiles also killed. Also, don't make super missiles easily destroyable by weak attacks like a jab. That's pretty pathetic.

3. Bring back auto-cancelling. If Brawl did one thing right with Samus, it was that all her aerials lag cancelled once she landed. This would allow her to perform short hop homing missile cancel.

4. Give Samus a faster grab. Look at how fast it comes out. Just look! Otherwise, give Samus two grab options. At a distance, she uses her grapple beam. When close up, she just grabs with her left arm. I just don't see why Samus should have a poor grab.

5. Fix Samus' jab. It's obvious Nintendo knows her jab is poor because it outright states it in Sm4sh. Give Samus a better jab. She shouldn't suffer in close-combat, especially since Metroid: Other M and Metroid: Samus Returns shows Samus is more than capable of fighting close up.

6. One feature I'd really like is if Samus could angle her beams. R.O.B. can do it. Why can't Samus?

 

[Mr.ケイ]

Being a Samus main, here's some buffs I think she needs.

I'd personally like to see them redo Samus's moveset to better reflect her arsenal. Having smash attacks that involve shooting a beam and actually having attacks that utilize her other beams. For instance having her charge shot function in a way like Robin's Thunder charging and have different stages that are the different beams.
The Ice Beam stage would obviously freeze the opponent with middle of the road kill power; Wave Beam would be weak, but deal high shield damage; and Plasma would be what her beam currently is, a powerful attack. Also, changing the functionality of her missiles into something she can stock up on...she could stock up on, say, 3 super missiles at a time and it would be visually represented by a missile icon by her character stock icon. And the super missiles also need to be more powerful and have higher projectile priority...which on the topic of projective priority, it's silly that Lucas's PK Fire trades with Samus's fully charged Charge Shot. I'd also change up aerials to be her shooting a beam more often, like Mii Gunner's F-air or Villager's F-air and B-air.

 

[Crystanium]

I'd personally like to see them redo Samus's moveset to better reflect her arsenal. Having smash attacks that involve shooting a beam and actually having attacks that utilize her other beams. For instance having her charge shot function in a way like Robin's Thunder charging and have different stages that are the different beams.
The Ice Beam stage would obviously freeze the opponent with middle of the road kill power; Wave Beam would be weak, but deal high shield damage; and Plasma would be what her beam currently is, a powerful attack. Also, changing the functionality of her missiles into something she can stock up on...she could stock up on, say, 3 super missiles at a time and it would be visually represented by a missile icon by her character stock icon. And the super missiles also need to be more powerful and have higher projectile priority...which on the topic of projective priority, it's silly that Lucas's PK Fire trades with Samus's fully charged Charge Shot. I'd also change up aerials to be her shooting a beam more often, like Mii Gunner's F-air or Villager's F-air and B-air.

In Make Your Move 19, I believe it was, I made an improved Samus where she used her other beam weapons. The way it worked was that releasing a fully charged Charge Shot would transition to Ice, then Wave, then Plasma. This was Samus' B special, rather than smash attacks, which I think your idea is pretty interesting. My improved version of Samus was that Charge Shot did what it did. Nothing was changed. Ice Shot would freeze the opponent and launch the opponent in an 80 degree angle. It wouldn't necessarily be a special capable of KO'ing, but if used in the air, and if the opponent was hit and at a high enough percent, he or she would end up passing the ceiling blast zone. Ice Shot was also slow to the point you could have two nigh-charged ones on the stage. Uncharged would only do that briefly, so it'd be more of a nuisance.

Wave Shot would move in a wavy manner, covering a bit more vertical range. It would also pass through shields like Greninja's B special. There wouldn't be any damage, but if it wasn't perfectly shielded, it would cause a shield stun. It would be able to stun the opponent as well and pass through floors or walls. With Plasma Shot, it would be able to break shields pretty quickly, but it wouldn't be effective in KO'ing. There was someone who pointed out a method in the MYM thread that I hadn't thought of. He said that with a fully charged Plasma Shot, breaking the shield would allow Samus to then fully charge the Charge Shot to deal 26% damage or even KO the opponent. But with your idea, this does allow Samus to use a variety of beams without having to rely on the B special to be fully charged and released just to transition, and I like that.

 

[pikadrewuniverse]

#buffpuff. That's all you need.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

#buffpuff. That's all you need.

I actually have note on ideas to balance her out.
- U-throw BKB/KBG 110/30 >> 90/67. This makes it stronger than Mewtwo's U-throw kill.
- Pound ledge snap 29/41 >> 13/29. This allows her to immediately snap to the ledge.
- Remove insta-death from shield breaks for obvious reasons.
- D-air startup 7 >> 5; FAF 53 >> 47; autocancel 45 >> 38; hitboxes (multi-hits) 3.4/2.8 >> 3.8/3.2 (final hit) 5.0/3.0 >> 5.5/3.5. This makes it into an approach and combo tool.
- B-air startup 12 >> 8; FAF 40 >> 36; hitboxes 4.0/4.5 >> 4.0/5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- F-air Damage (Clean) 9% >> 10%; hitbox (clean) 4.5 >> 5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- N-air startup 6 >> 4; FAF 44 >> 42; hitboxes 4.0/6.0/3.5 >> 4.5/6.5/4.0. Better zone and combo tool.
- U-air startup 9 >> 7; FAF 45 >> 40; hitboxes 4.0/3.0/3.0 >> 4.5/3.0/3.0. Better juggle tool.
~~Generally speaking, Jigg's problem is the inability to get in and play in the neutral well, not that her rest kill isn't an 0% kill like a lot of people like to complain about. So the fixes Jiggs needs are to attacks that allow her to play in the neutral better, plus with her being super susceptible to vertical kills, it only makes sense to give her one of the stronger vertical kills in the game with an U-throw kill. Essentially, rather than make Jiggs a gimmick based character, make her a real character with strengths and weaknesses.

 

[pikadrewuniverse]

I actually have note on ideas to balance her out.
- U-throw BKB/KBG 110/30 >> 90/67. This makes it stronger than Mewtwo's U-throw kill.
- Pound ledge snap 29/41 >> 13/29. This allows her to immediately snap to the ledge.
- Remove insta-death from shield breaks for obvious reasons.
- D-air startup 7 >> 5; FAF 53 >> 47; autocancel 45 >> 38; hitboxes (multi-hits) 3.4/2.8 >> 3.8/3.2 (final hit) 5.0/3.0 >> 5.5/3.5. This makes it into an approach and combo tool.
- B-air startup 12 >> 8; FAF 40 >> 36; hitboxes 4.0/4.5 >> 4.0/5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- F-air Damage (Clean) 9% >> 10%; hitbox (clean) 4.5 >> 5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- N-air startup 6 >> 4; FAF 44 >> 42; hitboxes 4.0/6.0/3.5 >> 4.5/6.5/4.0. Better zone and combo tool.
- U-air startup 9 >> 7; FAF 45 >> 40; hitboxes 4.0/3.0/3.0 >> 4.5/3.0/3.0. Better juggle tool.
~~Generally speaking, Jigg's problem is the inability to get in and play in the neutral well, not that her rest kill isn't an 0% kill like a lot of people like to complain about. So the fixes Jiggs needs are to attacks that allow her to play in the neutral better, plus with her being super susceptible to vertical kills, it only makes sense to give her one of the stronger vertical kills in the game with an U-throw kill. Essentially, rather than make Jiggs a gimmick based character, make her a real character with strengths and weaknesses.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I actually have note on ideas to balance her out.
- U-throw BKB/KBG 110/30 >> 90/67. This makes it stronger than Mewtwo's U-throw kill.
- Pound ledge snap 29/41 >> 13/29. This allows her to immediately snap to the ledge.
- Remove insta-death from shield breaks for obvious reasons.
- D-air startup 7 >> 5; FAF 53 >> 47; autocancel 45 >> 38; hitboxes (multi-hits) 3.4/2.8 >> 3.8/3.2 (final hit) 5.0/3.0 >> 5.5/3.5. This makes it into an approach and combo tool.
- B-air startup 12 >> 8; FAF 40 >> 36; hitboxes 4.0/4.5 >> 4.0/5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- F-air Damage (Clean) 9% >> 10%; hitbox (clean) 4.5 >> 5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- N-air startup 6 >> 4; FAF 44 >> 42; hitboxes 4.0/6.0/3.5 >> 4.5/6.5/4.0. Better zone and combo tool.
- U-air startup 9 >> 7; FAF 45 >> 40; hitboxes 4.0/3.0/3.0 >> 4.5/3.0/3.0. Better juggle tool.
~~Generally speaking, Jigg's problem is the inability to get in and play in the neutral well, not that her rest kill isn't an 0% kill like a lot of people like to complain about. So the fixes Jiggs needs are to attacks that allow her to play in the neutral better, plus with her being super susceptible to vertical kills, it only makes sense to give her one of the stronger vertical kills in the game with an U-throw kill. Essentially, rather than make Jiggs a gimmick based character, make her a real character with strengths and weaknesses.

 

[loops0]

Can't say anything about the rest of the roster, but i would buff the puff

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, I'd prefer to keep most u-throws from KOing sooner than Mewtwo's u-throw. Charizard would be one of the few exceptions though; my moveset edit for Charizard has its u-throw KOing Mario at around 129% damage.

As much as Jigglypuff needs the buffs, its u-throw probably shouldn't be stronger than Mewtwo's u-throw.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I actually have note on ideas to balance her out.
- U-throw BKB/KBG 110/30 >> 90/67. This makes it stronger than Mewtwo's U-throw kill.
- Pound ledge snap 29/41 >> 13/29. This allows her to immediately snap to the ledge.
- Remove insta-death from shield breaks for obvious reasons.
- D-air startup 7 >> 5; FAF 53 >> 47; autocancel 45 >> 38; hitboxes (multi-hits) 3.4/2.8 >> 3.8/3.2 (final hit) 5.0/3.0 >> 5.5/3.5. This makes it into an approach and combo tool.
- B-air startup 12 >> 8; FAF 40 >> 36; hitboxes 4.0/4.5 >> 4.0/5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- F-air Damage (Clean) 9% >> 10%; hitbox (clean) 4.5 >> 5.0. Better kill and zone tool.
- N-air startup 6 >> 4; FAF 44 >> 42; hitboxes 4.0/6.0/3.5 >> 4.5/6.5/4.0. Better zone and combo tool.
- U-air startup 9 >> 7; FAF 45 >> 40; hitboxes 4.0/3.0/3.0 >> 4.5/3.0/3.0. Better juggle tool.
~~Generally speaking, Jigg's problem is the inability to get in and play in the neutral well, not that her rest kill isn't an 0% kill like a lot of people like to complain about. So the fixes Jiggs needs are to attacks that allow her to play in the neutral better, plus with her being super susceptible to vertical kills, it only makes sense to give her one of the stronger vertical kills in the game with an U-throw kill. Essentially, rather than make Jiggs a gimmick based character, make her a real character with strengths and weaknesses.

hell no. I hope you realize you just made landing with dair a free rest. Also, why is up-throw so good? This would make Puff a very boring character to watch and play.

 

[RIku434]

-Run Speed decreased (2.05 -> 1.9)
-Air Speed decreased (1.25 -> 1.2)
-Weight Increased (74 -> 77)
-Jumpsquat Increased (5 Frames -> 6 Frames)
-U-Smash comes out slower (Frame 8 -> Frame 13)
-Nair has more landing lag (13 -> 16)
-Fair has more landing lag (14 -> 18)
-Fair comes out later (Frame 6 -> Frame 7)
-Fair does less damage (13% -> 11%)

Mewtwo is ridiculously fast. I decided it shouls be tones down while still having good mobility. I decided to increase his weight for his only buff in exchange for the nerfs he got. Nair and Fair are amazingly powerful tools so I toned them down to make them less threatening.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, I'll never understand why Mewtwo's weight was nerfed so much. In fact, I find that the three lightest fighters should always be Jigglypuff, Mr. Game & Watch, and Kirby, in that very order; everyone else has to be heavier than Kirby.

I will say though, that in terms of weight, Bayonetta should probably be tied alongside Pikachu and Olimar in the weight department, especially considering how infamous her moveset is.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm doing Zard, my potna:

• flip flop hitbox and hurtboxes on Dtilt.
• decrease startup on Dsmash and increase shield damage.
• less lag on the following moves: Uair, Nair, and Fair.
• make flame thrower duration longer.
• increase air speed slightly
• add a new hotbox to Nair on frame 3. small, does enough knock back to hit someone away from Zard.

nothing too much, as I think Zard is roughly viable as is.


Bonus people that I wish was good:

• reduce mega vitamin FAF to 38
• reduce damage on Usmash and Bair by 2%

this buff will give doctor Mario a new powerful approach tool akin to melee Falco (except less crazy).

( YOU COULD'VE BEEN SO GOOOOOD!)

• Grab comes out a frame faster, has longer duration by 3 frames, and has less end lag ( by 5 frames or so).
• jab 2 has less end lag (by 5 frames), and rapid jab has less base knockback and much less knock back growth.
• jab finish comes out faster (frame 7-10 is it's new active hitboxes)
• Dtilt faf ends at 37 instead of 41
• Utilt's hitbox extends to the ground now
• Uair has a wider and longer hitbox, and damage has been increased by 3%.
• Cannonball charges muuuuch faster (600% faster?) and the damage is increased 4%
• mecha koopa faf reduced to 55 from 68.

better grab, waaaay better jab, and key moves with better utility

• reduce damage on all his smash attacks, tilts, and jab by 2%
• increase distance on Up-B and make It slightly maneuverable.
• increase distance on side b and make it rise slightly.

less extreme.

• reduce grab faf to 66 from 76.
• increase fair damage by 2%

grab is fixed now. yaaaaaay.

(I could erase everything up top if it meant Nintendo would read this and implement it)

• initial dash acceleration/speed w/e increased slightly
• Jab starts on frame 7 instead of frame 10.
• just reheat rate on Ftilt to 3/3/2 instead of 4/4/3
• make hitbox on Dtilt extend a little behind him to remove the blindspot.
• increase shield damage and pushback on Usmash and Dsmash.
• change angling on Dthrow to create tech-chase situations (inspired from balanced brawl and PM).
• reduce lag on Fair (30 to 25)
• reduce faf on gored throw from 64 to 55
• make gordo have more resistance (I forget the data for gordo can't find it, so let's just bump it up by 4%).
• Make Nair come out on frame 5 instead of frame 7. hitbox is bigger all-around him.

EDIT: Nintendo needs more creative people who are great with human relations. Creating a mode for people to directly edit tools for the characters (with some level of restrict so the game don't crash or something), and allowing those players to share their games with others would just make sales go sky-high.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

hell no. I hope you realize you just made landing with dair a free rest. Also, why is up-throw so good? This would make Puff a very boring character to watch and play.

Then I guess the KB and angle would have to be adjusted. If an U-throw kill is too boring, then what would you do to make her better? She's at the very bottom and is in desperate need of a substantial buff to be viable.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I already have:

If someone is looking for serious buffs to to make her tournament viable, while keeping her fun to play against (no melee puff, essentially) here is what I would suggest:

Specials:

Rollout:
-If she hits something, make the "rebound" animation last a max of 120 frames (2 seconds, long enough to punish at low percents), after which she can act again. No more SDing because you hit someone while offstage. If she lands during these rebound frames, normal landing lag applies. (74 frames)
-Make her able to turn around while on downward slopes (as supposed to rollout gliding to her death. Seriously, don't use rollout on lylat)
-increase hitbox size to the size of her body. Right now, the hitbox is smaller than rest.
-remove rollout leaping and rollout warping glitches. (The former can result in an SD)

Sing:
-Right now, this move has three hits. The first two last for 4 frames each, while the last one lasts for 12. Make them all last for 12 frames.
-Make this move immune to triggering counters.
-Reduce FAF from 180 to 160 (last hitbox ends on 134)
-Make sleeping duration a constant 120 frames. (mashing no longer affects duration) In this case, the first hit will leave the opponent with the frame advantage, but the second and third hits give jigglypuff the frame advantage.
-Increase the size of the second and third hitboxes such that each successive hit increases in size.

Pound:
-Remove the Pound brake glitch.

Rest:
-If the opponent is on their last stock, rest always results in a normal KO.
-If the opponent is not on their last stock, rest always results in a Star/Screen KO.

Aerials:

Nair:
-No changes

Bair:
-Increase Shield pushback.

Fair:
-Decrease landing lag from 15 to 12.

Uair:
-Increase KBG from 100 to 105.

Dair:
-Slightly Increase hitbox size beneath her.

Tilts:

Jab 1:
-no changes

Jab 2:
-Reduce FAF from 20 to 18.

F-tilt
-Adjust knock back and angles such that it is able to jab-lock at until 40% (not high enough for rest to kill, except on platforms)

D-tilt
-Reduce Startup from 10 to 9
-Make Jigglypuff lower to the ground during the attack.

U-Tilt
-no changes.

Smash attacks:

F-smash:
-increase BKB from 10 to 25. Lower KBG such that it kills about the same time.
-Reduce startup from 16 to 15

U-Smash:
-Increase weak hitbox size to include slightly behind her and farther in font of her.
-Increase the size of the sweetspot to about 3/4 the size of her body (right now, it is the same size as rest)

D-Smash:
-Increase the horizontal size of the hitbox.
-Increase KBG from 69 to 75

Throws:

F-throw:
-Lower the launch angle from 55 to 45.

U-Throw:
-Increase KBG such that it kills medium-weights at around 180 (as opposed to 310)

D-Throw:
-Decrease BKB such that u-air is true on medium-weights under 10%

B-Throw:
-No changes

Attributes:
-Slightly increase Shield health above the rest of the cast.
-Decrease initial dash length from 14 frames to 10.
-Reduce airdodge startup from 4 frames to 3.



And that's all. Honestly, I do not want most of these changes. I wouldn't mind the bug fixes for rollout and pound, but I like maining a weak ball of cotton candy. This is what I think a tournament-viable jigglypuff would look like, though. Please share your thoughts.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In regards to Rollout, modifying its damage output is not as easy as you might think, since the damage dealt is controlled by Jigglypuff's script data AND parameter data. You want to increase Rollout's KO potency, but there are a good number of elements that can affect how much damage it deals. As a result, if you're not careful, you could unintentionally make Rollout more powerful than what you really want.

Another notable example of how changing the damage output of an attack could make it feel more overpowered, is the star projectile that Kirby and King Dedede can make upon spitting out fighters. If the projectile deals 22% damage, it can KO Bowser as early as 85% damage if it belongs to King Dedede.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Rollout can also go faster than max charge on lylat if it goes down a slope. The damage/knock back/shield damage all increase with that as well. Lots of things to consider. Rollout also refreshes its hit box during a transition from ground to air. On lylat, at the edge, this can already learn to hilarious shield breaks. Modifying anything could make it completely broken.

 

[Guido65]

For pits buff their air speed. I don't get why their air speed is so poor.

 

[DatKirby15]

I’d like to just put in my two cents on what I’d do to Kirby. I’ve liked what people have said regarding mobility and frame data, but I believe Kirby’s punish game also needs to be more consistent. As it is now, Kirby has a few combos that work on everyone and a number of combos scattered between very specific characters (like his combo that only works on DK and his Zero to Death that works on about five or six people). Kirby needs to be able to combo everyone reliably at low and mid percent, even if he gets better reward from some than others. I think Kirby’s frame data is another area of inconsistency that needs a cleanup, specifically his aerials. All of them just need to be a little faster bar back air. I’ll just list what I’d like here:


Airspeed 0.8 > 1 (will actually improve combo consistency by letting him catch out DI on fthrow for longer)
Midair jump height slighly increased (again to help him combo from fthrow for longer)
Dash Attack loses two frames of startup and endlag so it can be a better semi-burst option
Dair goes from frame 18 to 14 (frame 18 was just too slow, but the move’s reward and duration does warrant a slightly late start)
Uair, nair and fair lose 2 frames of startup.
Nair FAF 73 > 50
Nair hitbox does not shrink the longer it is out / takes longer to shrink so the starting hitbox size is out longer (it’s already small, c’mon)
Uthrow adjusted to kill midweights around 120 without rage (this kills absurdly late without rage, and Kirby’s lack of an always reliable setup means this would help him kill reasonably)
Dthrow totals to 12 damage instead of 10 (our damage racking throw will now do more damage than our kill throw)
Final cutter startup 23 frames > 16 frames, gains a hitbox on the way up, snaps to ledge on the way up (as good as climhazard with a character who should have a good recovery is bad)
Stone breaks full shields and comes out slightly faster, all this in midair (Bowser Bomb and Yoshi Bomb are objectively better, which just seems unfair for Kirby)

I tried not to go overboard, but I’m not too sure what could’ve been a little too much. I’d like to hear what everyone thinks and what you would adjust here.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For pits buff their air speed. I don't get why their air speed is so poor.

I think it's because their recovery move is long-ranged. At least Pit and Dark Pit are more fortunate than Kirby, whose default up special hardly offers much horizontal movement.

 

[link2702]

In Make Your Move 19, I believe it was, I made an improved Samus where she used her other beam weapons. The way it worked was that releasing a fully charged Charge Shot would transition to Ice, then Wave, then Plasma. This was Samus' B special, rather than smash attacks, which I think your idea is pretty interesting. My improved version of Samus was that Charge Shot did what it did. Nothing was changed. Ice Shot would freeze the opponent and launch the opponent in an 80 degree angle. It wouldn't necessarily be a special capable of KO'ing, but if used in the air, and if the opponent was hit and at a high enough percent, he or she would end up passing the ceiling blast zone. Ice Shot was also slow to the point you could have two nigh-charged ones on the stage. Uncharged would only do that briefly, so it'd be more of a nuisance.

Wave Shot would move in a wavy manner, covering a bit more vertical range. It would also pass through shields like Greninja's B special. There wouldn't be any damage, but if it wasn't perfectly shielded, it would cause a shield stun. It would be able to stun the opponent as well and pass through floors or walls. With Plasma Shot, it would be able to break shields pretty quickly, but it wouldn't be effective in KO'ing. There was someone who pointed out a method in the MYM thread that I hadn't thought of. He said that with a fully charged Plasma Shot, breaking the shield would allow Samus to then fully charge the Charge Shot to deal 26% damage or even KO the opponent. But with your idea, this does allow Samus to use a variety of beams without having to rely on the B special to be fully charged and released just to transition, and I like that.

I honestly don’t like the ideas of either making her charge shots rotate which beam she uses based on firing a fully charged one, or making it like robins and having it set up in stages during charging.

If we’re going to go the route of giving samus other beam weapons, it should probably be done by either tying it into one of her taunts, or replacing her down special(which is never going to happen since morphball and bomb are too iconic for her character to let go) that or having to put them in the custom moves category.

Personally I feel it’s better to just tie it to her side taunt, instead of the animation of the current one, have her actually go into the settings of her arm canon instead and show her changing beam weapons.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Having kirby's stone break full shields is too far. It is already better than bowser bomb and yoshi because it is invincible, and can be cancelled in midair.

 

[RIku434]

Would it make broken if she could cancel aerial rollout with an aerial and if she could jump cancel her rollout charge?

Because I think might need it to make it a useful move and make her a much better character

 

[Mr.ケイ]

Would it make broken if she could cancel aerial rollout with an aerial and if she could jump cancel her rollout charge?

Because I think might need it to make it a useful move and make her a much better character

I'm pretty sure doing so would give her basically a free and safe way to get a shield break (which is a free rest) unless there were other added features. I'd say making it function a bit like Peach's side b in that it bounces off at a certain distance with very little lag if it hits another player or their shield, but if wiffed it has lots of lag.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I already have:

Puff would go from mid bottom to high bottom/low low tier with all these changes.

Not sure what to give puff tho

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Puff would go from mid bottom to high bottom/low low tier with all these changes.

Success.

 

[DatKirby15]

Having kirby's stone break full shields is too far. It is already better than bowser bomb and yoshi because it is invincible, and can be cancelled in midair.

Those are understandable benefits to Stone, but they’re not as big as you think. Stone isn’t cancellable for a significant distance and is very punishable still during the cancel. Also, stone is not invincible; stone has a unique super armor that absorbs up to 24 total damage before breaking or can just be grabbed through. Kirby can actually be more punishable on landing because of the time it takes for him to leave the transformation and the fact that he can be grabbed out of it anyways. I know certain situations make it impossible for Kirby to avoid a punish (Ike charges an fsmash, you either pop out or get your stone broken). Bowser and Yoshi both need less time to recover from the attack and have more range (Bowser Bomb directly has more range and Yoshi has stars to keep him safe), as well as much less startup and more shieldbreaking potency. Taking this all into account, I feel like my buffs would put Stone on par with Bowser Bomb while still being a different move. If you can bring anything else to the table as to where that would be too much though, I’d still like to hear it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Success.

Ewwwww. yuck (imo of course).

• Range increase on Ftilt, Fair, Dtilt, and jab.
• Hit box on Ftilt^ is bigger and is slightly disjointed all around his fist to fight theirs blindspots.
• Laser charges faster (full charge is 430 frames sec from 860 frames).

 

[MERPIS]

to everybody nerfing mewtwo, you definitely don't know the character at all.
as for the topic at hand...
Buffs:
Nerfs:

 

[Baby_Sneak]

to everybody nerfing mewtwo, you definitely don't know the character at all.
as for the topic at hand...
Buffs:
Nerfs:

You have meta knight for both. Also, Mario is mysteriously in the nerf section.

 

[MERPIS]

You have meta knight for both. Also, Mario is mysteriously in the nerf section.

K I'll remove mayro
I wanna buff meta knight's neutral by giving him better SH options, either having fair and bair both auto cancel from a SH or make his combo game more interesting and not so...up air-y..That brings me to why I'm nerfing him, I believe that if we buffed his neutral, he would be beyond broken, so nerf his amazing punish game to be a little less broken. I hate having to rely on just dash attack to start my combos, I wanna start combos with fair or even a fast fall uair or maybe a dair, but at the same time, remove his ladder and other drag combos all together. Over all this would make him less linear and make him feel much more like a mainable character rather than just some stupid counterpick option.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

K I'll remove mayro
I wanna buff meta knight's neutral by giving him better SH options, either having fair and bair both auto cancel from a SH or make his combo game more interesting and not so...up air-y..That brings me to why I'm nerfing him, I believe that if we buffed his neutral, he would be beyond broken, so nerf his amazing punish game to be a little less broken. I hate having to rely on just dash attack to start my combos, I wanna start combos with fair or even a fast fall uair or maybe a dair, but at the same time, remove his ladder and other drag combos all together. Over all this would make him less linear and make him feel much more like a mainable character rather than just some stupid counterpick option.

so like buffing the range on his Ftilts, and weakening the power of his Up-B? that sounds cool.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rollout can also go faster than max charge on lylat if it goes down a slope. The damage/knock back/shield damage all increase with that as well. Lots of things to consider. Rollout also refreshes its hit box during a transition from ground to air. On lylat, at the edge, this can already learn to hilarious shield breaks. Modifying anything could make it completely broken.

In fairness, the only thing about Rollout that needs adjustments is its overall knockback, and possibly its hitbox size as well. 30 BKB and 92 KBG just isn't enough if a 14% damage hit doesn't make KOs until long after fighters go over 130% damage.

 

[MERPIS]

so like buffing the range on his Ftilts, and weakening the power of his Up-B? that sounds cool.

naw keep the up b thing, he should keep a kill confirm. But yes buff his range, hitbox size, make fair autocancel, make bair autocancel, make give dair a little more comboability and hitstun, and maybe buff his runspeed to surpass cloud, in exchange for his ladder, and his other drag combos as well as removing some of his lock combos.

 

[Chiggaman23]

I can only speak for my mains here.


Needs an actual aerial side-b grab box. Smash attacks need less startup, and UP B NEEDS AN ACTUAL ATTACK HITBOX!!!! Seriously, the only time I hit with it is when I purposely glide across the ground and get punished. Also, have a lower overall scaling on aura. It can get ridiculous.


Don't know much I can do... either shrink the tipper hitboxes or revert him back to prepatch Marth. Oh yeah, and up smash needs a bigger hitbox.


Needs buffs to his range, mostly on his Bair. Autocancel short hop lasers back. Less lag on up smash. But, up air needs to only be a single hit instead of 2, and have less knockback.


Decrease range on Nair, since I find myself relying on it too much for combos. Change knockback angle on down throw, and give Up-b a smaller hitbox or substantially less knockback, but more horizontal distance.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

naw keep the up b thing, he should keep a kill confirm. But yes buff his range, hitbox size, make fair autocancel, make bair autocancel, make give dair a little more comboability and hitstun, and maybe buff his runspeed to surpass cloud, in exchange for his ladder, and his other drag combos as well as removing some of his lock combos.

I ain't trying to remove it, just make it kill at higher percents, similar to ZSS's up-b. I like to make changes that go directly into the heart of the character's design issues, but try to minimalize how much Ima change. So, making MK's neutral more versatile imo would be to nerf the hit box size of DA and make Up-B kill at later%, in exchange for Ftilt to have bigger hit boxes, Dtilt to have bigger hit boxes, and Dair (like you said) to have a bigger hit box and be combo-friendly.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Universal changes
Untechable spinning animation and semi-techable walls are just dumb so remove those. Buff ledge roll because they are a sub par choice among all the ledge options. Rage should only affect KBG so moves with great BKB don’t become incredibly overpowered and this should avoid things like Luma killing at 0 and Mario/Peach/Samus Up B kills but I’m not sure. Shield regeneration and rolls are also incredibly strong in this game, some adjustments should do the trick.

• Spinning animation when >100% completely removed
• Semi-techable walls behave like normal walls
• Ledge rolls:

1. For characters with intangibility that ends between frames 33 and 28 FAF 50 > 40
2. For characters with intangibility that ends between frames 27 and 21 FAF 50 > 38

• Rage effect only affects KBG
• Shield regeneration per sec 4.8 > 4.2
• All rolls have now 3 less invincibility frames and 5 more endlag frames

Limit Cross Slash was nerfed to not be a kill move. The reason of this last choice was to balance the purpose of all his specials having a strong projectile, a strong damage-dealing move, a strong recovery and a strong finisher

I like this bit about Cloud's specials.

Shield recovery nerfs are great too.

But no airdodge nerfs? It would make edgeguarding more feasible.

I'm torn on KBG-based rage. Luma uair etc is stupid, but I play Link who kind of needs the rage kills. It's one of the few things that keeps him scary.

Having kirby's stone break full shields is too far. It is already better than bowser bomb and yoshi because it is invincible, and can be cancelled in midair.

That would do nothing. Instead of block and punish Stone, we'd spotdodge and punish.

Stone's primary use is offstage against recoveries anyway.

 

[DatKirby15]

Stone’s primary use isn’t offstage. The launch angle makes it hard to do much with. Stone’s primary purpose is for hard reads and, as it would happen, breaking damaged shields. To say that we would just spotdodge stone instead of shielding isn’t always true, because Kirby can now read shield habits/condition them and get a good punish. It happens with Bowser Bomb plenty, and Kirby deserves that too. I also stated that midair transformation should be faster, making it less reactable than at present. Kirby is a bait and punish character, and making stone break full shields actually lets it be a valuable addition to his kit for helping bait and punish. I mean, no one says Bowser Bomb is broken.