If You Could Patch SSB4...?

[Baby_Sneak]

brawl minus is a parody. nearly every character has dumb gimmicks to equalize the roster and make everyone on-par with brawl meta knight, maybe stronger since they actually buffed him a bit. it's an exaggeration.

besides that, the goal should be to minimize the gap between the worst and the best as much as possible, preferably closer to the best than the worst. good characters tend to be more fun for players than bad characters. it's why jiggs players always complain. it's why bowser jr players always complain. their complaints aren't without justification, their characters suck. and when some people cling to certain playstyles really well, and the character that fits that playstyle perfectly is bottom 10, tends to suck if bottom 10 is orders of magnitude worse than top 10.

and having everyone be good is just straight up more appealing. have you ever seen a smash mod that balances the game by making everyone terrible?

Can't argue with such cold ruthless logic.
Also, I'm a fan of strong characters, but also characters with creative archetypes, so I would turn Kirby into a grappler, but based on his neutral B.

• Neutral B has more range
• Can control the curve of the spit. Dependent on the percent of the opponent. 0% is still somewhat controllable.
• Star duration lasts longer (90 frames?)
• 
  
• D-tilt gives a slight slide forward.
• Spitting the star onto the ground is a untechable situation for the opponent. Gives Kirby +10 frame advantage
• Has a slight push at the end of the move, where Kirby can influence the direction. Opponent can fight against this push like a normal attack; DI, SDI, etc... the more percent the opponent has, the less control they have.
• Copy attack increases damage of the special move by 1.7 or something.

 

[DatKirby15]

But more "balanced" mid-tiers are just adding more mediocre, boring characters. I don't think that's a good way to stimulate the meta.

Excuse me, I find mid tiers to be infinitely more interesting than top tiers. Top tiers just have tools that step on the competition in unfair ways such as Witch Time and Cloud’s autocancels and frame data in general. Mid and low tiers are the most interesting because they do have exploitable weaknesses and don’t have get-out-of-jail-free cards for bad situations. There’s something they excel at and other things they don’t do well in, which creates a healthy balance and understandable objectives for counterplay on both sides. Additionally, it’s more satisfying to get hits and win matches because you know you played to your strengths right instead of just doing anything with a top tier. Matchups work well because characters with certain strengths beat characters with weaknesses there, and even matchups are more interesting as everyone tries to play to the others’ weaknesses and mitigate their own simultaneously. Characters who have something for everything bore me, because you know they’re probably going to be fine making a mistake mid tier players would take punishes for because they have some escape option that just works or some way to keep them safe with a fast, ranged attack. I know a game would get boring if everyone was balanced, but it would be nice if the gap between people was a lot smaller. People like Cloud and Bayo with overwhelming options in every situation are boring and unfair, so giving them weaknesses can make them more rewarding and make the game more fair for everyone.

 

[R3D3MON]

Can't argue with such cold ruthless logic.
Also, I'm a fan of strong characters, but also characters with creative archetypes, so I would turn Kirby into a grappler, but based on his neutral B.

• Neutral B has more range
• Can control the curve of the spit. Dependent on the percent of the opponent. 0% is still somewhat controllable.
• Star duration lasts longer (90 frames?)
• 
  
• D-tilt gives a slight slide forward.
• Spitting the star onto the ground is a untechable situation for the opponent. Gives Kirby +10 frame advantage
• Has a slight push at the end of the move, where Kirby can influence the direction. Opponent can fight against this push like a normal attack; DI, SDI, etc...
• Copy attack increases damage of the special move by 1.7 or something.

Nice idea. Reminds me of PM Wario with the command grab set ups. I would still buff his existing throws to give him more combo tools other than neutral b however.

Excuse me, I find mid tiers to be infinitely more interesting than top tiers. Top tiers just have tools that step on the competition in unfair ways such as Witch Time and Cloud’s autocancels and frame data in general. Mid and low tiers are the most interesting because they do have exploitable weaknesses and don’t have get-out-of-jail-free cards for bad situations. There’s something they excel at and other things they don’t do well in, which creates a healthy balance and understandable objectives for counterplay on both sides. Additionally, it’s more satisfying to get hits and win matches because you know you played to your strengths right instead of just doing anything with a top tier. Matchups work well because characters with certain strengths beat characters with weaknesses there, and even matchups are more interesting as everyone tries to play to the others’ weaknesses and mitigate their own simultaneously. Characters who have something for everything bore me, because you know they’re probably going to be fine making a mistake mid tier players would take punishes for because they have some escape option that just works or some way to keep them safe with a fast, ranged attack. I know a game would get boring if everyone was balanced, but it would be nice if the gap between people was a lot smaller. People like Cloud and Bayo with overwhelming options in every situation are boring and unfair, so giving them weaknesses can make them more rewarding and make the game more fair for everyone.

This is what happens when you don't know how to analyze or re-create high-level gameplay of other smash games (besides S4) and the amount of tools both you and your opponents are dealing with simultaneously.

Also counterplay happens regardless of character balance btw, this is why melee still exists (and why its meta constantly shifts in both large and small amounts).

 

[DatKirby15]

Can't argue with such cold ruthless logic.
Also, I'm a fan of strong characters, but also characters with creative archetypes, so I would turn Kirby into a grappler, but based on his neutral B.

• Neutral B has more range
• Can control the curve of the spit. Dependent on the percent of the opponent. 0% is still somewhat controllable.
• Star duration lasts longer (90 frames?)
• 
  
• D-tilt gives a slight slide forward.
• Spitting the star onto the ground is a untechable situation for the opponent. Gives Kirby +10 frame advantage
• Has a slight push at the end of the move, where Kirby can influence the direction. Opponent can fight against this push like a normal attack; DI, SDI, etc...
• Copy attack increases damage of the special move by 1.7 or something.

I don’t think I’d enjoy that Kirby as much. Kirby’s bait and punish style is really fun and works pretty well right now, but he just needs certain buffs to improve accessibilty to his options. His moves are almost all great, and those that aren’t don’t need much to be great. He just needs a few mobility improvements and some frame data adjustments to be a consistently good competitor, as well as a few other changes here and there.

I’m not saying there’s no counterplay at high level, but it isn’t interesting when there’s so many tools to play with. Sure, the competition’s fair when everyone is using top tiers, but not everyone wants to use top tier characters. In a roster as huge as this game, the selection of characters that can win things is too small. I have a lot more fun playing as characters that have blind spots, because having something for everything isn’t rewarding to me. It doesn’t feel like I earn my hits as much or deserved that string when the window to punish me is nearly nonexistent. When it’s possible to make mistakes that will result in big punishes against any character, you have to think and engage more or else you lose. While that makes Kirby more fun for me, it’s not actually why I use him; I use him because Kirby is my favorite game character. Then, there’s also the angle of wanting to play characters you like even if they’re not good. People who really like Jigglypuff or it’s playstyle are just out of luck then. In a balanced game, everyone should have balanced strengths and weaknesses rather than a whole lot of strengths and a selection of three or four moves that are consistently unsafe on shield. I don’t see how anyone has fun using characters with no need to commit to a risk against most of the roster.

Probably the fairest top tier is Mario, who only has a few options I would consider a little too much like Usmash. Mario has plenty of strengths, but definitive weaknesses in his landings and middling speed. Almost any chracter can deal with Mario as long as they play well and Mario doesn’t have much of any cheap gimmicks, so Mario is basically as far as I would go in terms of a “best” character.

 

[Nah]

Excuse me, I find mid tiers to be infinitely more interesting than top tiers. Top tiers just have tools that step on the competition in unfair ways such as Witch Time and Cloud’s autocancels and frame data in general. Mid and low tiers are the most interesting because they do have exploitable weaknesses and don’t have get-out-of-jail-free cards for bad situations. There’s something they excel at and other things they don’t do well in, which creates a healthy balance and understandable objectives for counterplay on both sides. Additionally, it’s more satisfying to get hits and win matches because you know you played to your strengths right instead of just doing anything with a top tier. Matchups work well because characters with certain strengths beat characters with weaknesses there, and even matchups are more interesting as everyone tries to play to the others’ weaknesses and mitigate their own simultaneously. Characters who have something for everything bore me, because you know they’re probably going to be fine making a mistake mid tier players would take punishes for because they have some escape option that just works or some way to keep them safe with a fast, ranged attack. I know a game would get boring if everyone was balanced, but it would be nice if the gap between people was a lot smaller. People like Cloud and Bayo with overwhelming options in every situation are boring and unfair, so giving them weaknesses can make them more rewarding and make the game more fair for everyone.

Idk, I'd rather that everyone have an options/options for everything. It's frustrating sometimes when you're playing a mid tier or something and the issue is not that you don't know what to do in a situation, it's that your character just doesn't have the means to handle it. Even if one has a tool or tools for every situation, the more important thing is knowing how to apply them and recognizing when to use them. If everyone has options for everything, then certain characters' "overwhelming options in every situation" are less "boring and unfair", no?

I said this a while ago in another thread, but the issue with this game's balance isn't that the top tiers are as good as they are, but rather that this is the 4th game in the series that has been patched 17 times and there is still this much of a disparity between the top 15 or whatever characters and the rest. I never really understood why when presented with the choice, some people choose "make the best weaker" rather than "try to bring everyone else up to their level". Where's the fun in that?


Nevermind that what's "interesting" or "fun" is largely subjective, though I have to admit that my own thoughts are laced with a little more subjectivity than I'd like.

 

[DatKirby15]

Idk, I'd rather that everyone have an options/options for everything. It's frustrating sometimes when you're playing a mid tier or something and the issue is not that you don't know what to do in a situation, it's that your character just doesn't have the means to handle it. Even if one has a tool or tools for every situation, the more important thing is knowing how to apply them and recognizing when to use them. If everyone has options for everything, then certain characters' "overwhelming options in every situation" are less "boring and unfair", no?

I said this a while ago in another thread, but the issue with this game's balance isn't that the top tiers are as good as they are, but rather that this is the 4th game in the series that has been patched 17 times and there is still this much of a disparity between the top 15 or whatever characters and the rest. I never really understood why when presented with the choice, some people choose "make the best weaker" rather than "try to bring everyone else up to their level". Where's the fun in that?


Nevermind that what's "interesting" or "fun" is largely subjective, though I have to admit that my own thoughts are laced with a little more subjectivity than I'd like.

I actually agree that everyone should at least have something for everything, but top tiers have more than just something for everything; they have plenty for everything. A Kirby main knows what it feels like to be helpless, believe me, so there should be weaknesses without a total lack of an option.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don’t think I’d enjoy that Kirby as much. Kirby’s bait and punish style is really fun and works pretty well right now, but he just needs certain buffs to improve accessibilty to his options. His moves are almost all great, and those that aren’t don’t need much to be great. He just needs a few mobility improvements and some frame data adjustments to be a consistently good competitor, as well as a few other changes here and there.

Prolly not, I don't enjoy the current Kirby, as Luigi, to me, is just a viable Kirby. Their playstyoes overlap a bit, but with Luigi coming out for the win. That's why I wanted Kirby to be more based on that move.

 

[DatKirby15]

Prolly not, I don't enjoy the current Kirby, as Luigi, to me, is just a viable Kirby. Their playstyoes overlap a bit, but with Luigi coming out for the win. That's why I wanted Kirby to be more based on that move.

The thing is, Kirby isn’t much of a grappler and he doesn’t need to use inhale very frequently. Kirby’s base kit is quite different in playstyle than Luigi’s. Kirby doesn’t centralize around grab or inhale like Luigi does and, frankly, shouldn’t, because Kirby has a different playstyle that I would rather have than Luigi’s. I don’t think making a chracter centralize around one option is very good either (it’s what I don’t like about Bowser) and your changes would both centralize Kirby around Inhale and drastically change what the character does. Kirby focuses on baiting and punishing, with plenty of great tools to capitalize on the opponent’s mistakes. He doesn’t have to be like Luigi or anyone else to succeed, and I’ve stated multiple times what he needs to be viable (just check my first post on this thread). If you don’t like Kirby and would rather pick Luigi, go for it. Just don’t change a character for the people who like him in his current style so you can enjoy them better, especially if you already like prefer an existing character.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The thing is, Kirby isn’t much of a grappler and he doesn’t need to use inhale very frequently. Kirby’s base kit is quite different in playstyle than Luigi’s. Kirby doesn’t centralize around grab or inhale like Luigi does and, frankly, shouldn’t, because Kirby has a different playstyle that I would rather have than Luigi’s. I don’t think making a chracter centralize around one option is very good either (it’s what I don’t like about Bowser) and your changes would both centralize Kirby around Inhale and drastically change what the character does. Kirby focuses on baiting and punishing, with plenty of great tools to capitalize on the opponent’s mistakes. He doesn’t have to be like Luigi or anyone else to succeed, and I’ve stated multiple times what he needs to be viable (just check my first post on this thread). If you don’t like Kirby and would rather pick Luigi, go for it. Just don’t change a character for the people who like him in his current style so you can enjoy them better, especially if you already like prefer an existing character.

Kirby needs to get close to do what he likes
Luigi needs to get close to do what he likes

Kirby is centralized on combos, and frankly, grabbing (take away kirbys grabs and see what's left. Not much).
Luigi is centralized on combos, and frankly, grabbing.

Both have slow airspeed and falling speed

Both need to get close-up.

Not carbon-copies, but playstyles overlap.


Oh, and it seems you're taking it personal with comments like," If you don’t like Kirby and would rather pick Luigi, go for it. Just don’t change a character for the people who like him in his current style so you can enjoy them better, especially if you already like prefer an existing character." Bruh chill with that nonsense, it's not like Nintendo is closely watching this thread and will take anything from here to implement. I don't want Kirby to be like Luigi, and I don't think you read my post closely enough, since Luigi doesn't play like my suggestions at all.

"I don’t think making a chracter centralize around one option is very good either (it’s what I don’t like about Bowser) and your changes would both centralize Kirby around Inhale and drastically change what the character does."

I'm glad you missed the part where I made it interactive with tech-chasing and DI and SDI. Bowser's is a mess because it's simple, there's really no interaction, and the way to get it is easy. Kirby's neutral B would be like a real grappler, where there are vortex situations and reads, and constant two-player action going on, instead of what bowser and donkey be doing.

And this is your suggestion, since,"He doesn’t have to be like Luigi or anyone else to succeed, and I’ve stated multiple times what he needs to be viable (just check my first post on this thread)":

I’d like to just put in my two cents on what I’d do to Kirby. I’ve liked what people have said regarding mobility and frame data, but I believe Kirby’s punish game also needs to be more consistent. As it is now, Kirby has a few combos that work on everyone and a number of combos scattered between very specific characters (like his combo that only works on DK and his Zero to Death that works on about five or six people). Kirby needs to be able to combo everyone reliably at low and mid percent, even if he gets better reward from some than others. I think Kirby’s frame data is another area of inconsistency that needs a cleanup, specifically his aerials. All of them just need to be a little faster bar back air. I’ll just list what I’d like here:


Airspeed 0.8 > 1 (will actually improve combo consistency by letting him catch out DI on fthrow for longer)
Midair jump height slighly increased (again to help him combo from fthrow for longer)
Dash Attack loses two frames of startup and endlag so it can be a better semi-burst option
Dair goes from frame 18 to 14 (frame 18 was just too slow, but the move’s reward and duration does warrant a slightly late start)
Uair, nair and fair lose 2 frames of startup.
Nair FAF 73 > 50
Nair hitbox does not shrink the longer it is out / takes longer to shrink so the starting hitbox size is out longer (it’s already small, c’mon)
Uthrow adjusted to kill midweights around 120 without rage (this kills absurdly late without rage, and Kirby’s lack of an always reliable setup means this would help him kill reasonably)
Dthrow totals to 12 damage instead of 10 (our damage racking throw will now do more damage than our kill throw)
Final cutter startup 23 frames > 16 frames, gains a hitbox on the way up, snaps to ledge on the way up (as good as climhazard with a character who should have a good recovery is bad)
Stone breaks full shields and comes out slightly faster, all this in midair (Bowser Bomb and Yoshi Bomb are objectively better, which just seems unfair for Kirby)

I tried not to go overboard, but I’m not too sure what could’ve been a little too much. I’d like to hear what everyone thinks and what you would adjust here.

For me, this is pretty stale. I mean sure, you love playing current Kirby, this is great!, but if you're more like me, who wants characters with fun and creative archetypes, instead of the same one nearly every character kinda has to play ("bait-and-punish" is what majority, if not all characters have to play), then looking at what can be creative from the character is a must.

If you gon hate on my suggestions, at least insert something in Kirby so players can get creative with him (or tell me if there's a trait, move, special move, or w/e that allows this to happen).

 

[JustTheTipperR]

That's ridiculous. weighs 100, Link's 104. He without limit has the 10th best run speed, 14th best air speed with a huge sword. He has a frame 5 Nair that hits all around him, auto cancel Dair that's huge, killing Bair with Shulk's reach and 14 frames of lag, a frame 9 DA that kills at 130%, frame 7 sliding Dtilt with leg intangibility, frame 8 Dsmash, frame 4 jab (I'd nerf it to 5) and Limit would still be a good kill option even if it doesn't kill at 65%. My changes are fine:

"Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs."

Limit shouldn't make big sword Cloud faster in the air than Yoshi. A frame 7 js, same as Link and Robin is perfectly reasonable. Uair gives Cloud almost rosa like coverage with better air speed and he can land and combo from it; 12% 15 frames of landing lag, frame 7- Link's Fair (1 hit) is frame 14, 11% and 12 landing lag. Uair needs a nerf. Cloud would still be much better than Ganon currently is. He'd still be better than Link is.

My aim is similar to @Tizio Random 's post. Nerf top tiers, buff low tiers and have everyone meet in mid tier.

I agree with the idea of Cloud's limit not improving his stats and not charging from him being hit. I think this would nerf cloud without taking away too much of what makes him good. I can live with letting him keep the stat buffs with limit, but I certainly think requiring Cloud to charge his own limit would make him a much more reasonable character to fight against. Especially now that Cloud's are becoming better at managing his poor recovery, I think that this would improve the philosophy behind Cloud's kit. A character that is incredibly strong and agile on stage, but dangerously vulnerable off stage without limit. In theory, this would put more of a reliance on limit for Cloud mains as opposed to it seeming like yet another additional OP move for an already OP character.

Making this change could also slightly delay when a Cloud could get his limit in a stock. From charging at the beginning of the match + occasional charges here and there + the limit charged from taking/giving damage, Cloud can get his limit before either of you reach 50. If Cloud had to charge his limit himself, it could delay the time it takes to get his limit during a match which could lead to people getting killed at more reasonable percents from his strong limit attacks. I personally wouldn't feel as frustrated getting killed at 75ish+ rather than 55-75% (depending on the character).

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I would enjoy inhale being more versitile (for Kirby and triple D) but increasing the effect of copy is a big no-no.

 

[RIku434]

Kirby is centralized on combos, and frankly, grabbing (take away kirbys grabs and see what's left. Not much).

That is false. Kirby is centralized on combos but NOT grab. Kirby actually has up tilt and dair to start combos if he doesn't have grab.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That is false. Kirby is centralized on combos but NOT grab. Kirby actually has up tilt and dair to start combos if he doesn't have grab.

Centralized is prolly a strong word, but that is one of his pillars. Remove that and Kirby just dropped like crazy.

I would enjoy inhale being more versitile (for Kirby and triple D) but increasing the effect of copy is a big no-no.

Why copy when the spit has gotten that good though. Need copy to be a worthy option when adjacent to spit.

 

[R3D3MON]

I'm glad you missed the part where I made it interactive with tech-chasing and DI and SDI. Bowser's is a mess because it's simple, there's really no interaction, and the way to get it is easy. Kirby's neutral B would be like a real grappler, where there are vortex situations and reads, and constant two-player action going on, instead of what bowser and donkey be doing.

There is actually so many ways to avoid getting grabbed by Bowser it's ridiculous. Your opinion on Bowser's grab sounds like the typical low-level melee players who complain about wobbling.

The point is to understand the situation you are in and either minimize it or just don't get in the situation where Bowser can grab you (DON'T. GET. GRABBED). Of course this isn't easy, but why play the game if it was easy?

Bowser's grab is a lot less scary once you look at the character both holistically and analyze micro situations so that you can avoid GETTING GRABBED. For example, one holistic approach is to abuse Bowser's terrible ability to land or get back from the ledge so that he can never get back on the stage to get the grab (PLAY TO YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAKNESS). Bowser's strength is in pivot grabs, so predict that and throw out a safe-ish hitbox while landing. Bowser really can't kill you with one grab (of course disregarding hard reads), no matter how much the salty twitch viewers might complain about. Or stop throwing unsafe hitboxes on Bowser's shield for easy shield grabs during neutral (this should be obvious because this is pretty much universal to all characters in Smash 4 because shields are extremely abusable in the game for some very anti-competitive reason, but I digress).

I know a lot of what I said above may have been obvious to you, but your comment on Bowser's grab and how "easy" it is for Bowser to get a grab seems like you don't truly understand how counterplay works.

 

[MercuryPenny]

shields are extremely abusable in the game for some very anti-competitive reason

there's just a tinge of hypocrisy in including this in a post chewing someone else out for saying bowser's grab game is too abusable

your post is otherwise valid

 

[DatKirby15]

There is actually so many ways to avoid getting grabbed by Bowser it's ridiculous. Your opinion on Bowser's grab sounds like the typical low-level melee players who complain about wobbling.

The point is to understand the situation you are in and either minimize it or just don't get in the situation where Bowser can grab you (DON'T. GET. GRABBED). Of course this isn't easy, but why play the game if it was easy?

Bowser's grab is a lot less scary once you look at the character both holistically and analyze micro situations so that you can avoid GETTING GRABBED. For example, one holistic approach is to abuse Bowser's terrible ability to land or get back from the ledge so that he can never get back on the stage to get the grab (PLAY TO YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAKNESS). Bowser's strength is in pivot grabs, so predict that and throw out a safe-ish hitbox while landing. Bowser really can't kill you with one grab (of course disregarding hard reads), no matter how much the salty twitch viewers might complain about. Or stop throwing unsafe hitboxes on Bowser's shield for easy shield grabs during neutral (this should be obvious because this is pretty much universal to all characters in Smash 4 because shields are extremely abusable in the game for some very anti-competitive reason, but I digress).

I know a lot of what I said above may have been obvious to you, but your comment on Bowser's grab and how "easy" it is for Bowser to get a grab seems like you don't truly understand how counterplay works.

Here’s the thing; I never said there wasn’t a way to play around Bowser’s grab, but the fact that Bowser would be nothing without it is the problem. The whole game becomes about one option; for Bowser he must focus on getting it, and for the opponent he must focus on avoiding it. If I were to rebalance Bowser, I would take away or soften up the grab jank and make everything else useful. That would make fighting him and fighting as him more interesting. Not to mention that Melee icies don’t have an insane pivot grab range, making more hitboxes safe to throw out against it. Don’t act like there’s nothing to complain about with Wobbling either; it’s literally a mistake. What character should be able to get such huge benefit off of one neutral win? Someone can have a solid lead for an entire stock and make one mistake that results in their death, otherwise just a speed bump if they’re fighting other characters.


As for Baby_Sneak, I suppose I did miss a few things. I largely feel like how Kirby feels now is perfect for his character though, and retaining that feel is important to me as a big fan of his games. I also feel like your ideas might make the character too complicated, as Kirby is supposed to be pretty easy to pick up (another thing true to his games). That simplicity might come off as stale to you, which I can understand. However, I do think it’s fitting for Kirby to have pretty easy to understand attacks. Overall, you might like your Kirby’s new feel, but it just doesn’t seem particularly right for me as a fan not only of his style but his character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only buff zard needs is to his traction. Think about how good zard would be if shielding didn't send him flying backwards. It would help his punish game immensely.
I already said this though, question is how do you measure traction buffs?

Umm, does it?

I feel like it is his air speed/laning options. If you buff his air speed too much then lol Dthrow to RAR bair is a true combo and that is really dumb for him to have off a grab. And of the heavies, I honestly think he has better landing options than all of them. Traction I am not sure, in what ways does it?

 

[R3D3MON]

Umm, does it?

I feel like it is his air speed/laning options. If you buff his air speed too much then lol Dthrow to RAR bair is a true combo and that is really dumb for him to have off a grab. And of the heavies, I honestly think he has better landing options than all of them. Traction I am not sure, in what ways does it?

D-throw to RAR bair sounds amazing. I can imagine how salty people will get when they DI badly and die super early horizontally LMAO

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There is actually so many ways to avoid getting grabbed by Bowser it's ridiculous. Your opinion on Bowser's grab sounds like the typical low-level melee players who complain about wobbling.

The point is to understand the situation you are in and either minimize it or just don't get in the situation where Bowser can grab you (DON'T. GET. GRABBED). Of course this isn't easy, but why play the game if it was easy?

Bowser's grab is a lot less scary once you look at the character both holistically and analyze micro situations so that you can avoid GETTING GRABBED. For example, one holistic approach is to abuse Bowser's terrible ability to land or get back from the ledge so that he can never get back on the stage to get the grab (PLAY TO YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAKNESS). Bowser's strength is in pivot grabs, so predict that and throw out a safe-ish hitbox while landing. Bowser really can't kill you with one grab (of course disregarding hard reads), no matter how much the salty twitch viewers might complain about. Or stop throwing unsafe hitboxes on Bowser's shield for easy shield grabs during neutral (this should be obvious because this is pretty much universal to all characters in Smash 4 because shields are extremely abusable in the game for some very anti-competitive reason, but I digress).

I know a lot of what I said above may have been obvious to you, but your comment on Bowser's grab and how "easy" it is for Bowser to get a grab seems like you don't truly understand how counterplay works.

Lol

I'm sorry, but you wasted multiple paragraphs off of a misread. Yeah, I know to work around his grab and avoid it, but what happens when I'm grabbed? You literally made my point comparing it to wobbling, where there's little to no counter play when (keyword: when) grabbed. I want Kirby's grappling system to be more interactive than that; think snake's Dthrow tech chase/D3 PM or Bbrawl tech chase situstions, but more in-depth.

Speaking of which:

As for Baby_Sneak, I suppose I did miss a few things. I largely feel like how Kirby feels now is perfect for his character though, and retaining that feel is important to me as a big fan of his games. I also feel like your ideas might make the character too complicated, as Kirby is supposed to be pretty easy to pick up (another thing true to his games). That simplicity might come off as stale to you, which I can understand. However, I do think it’s fitting for Kirby to have pretty easy to understand attacks. Overall, you might like your Kirby’s new feel, but it just doesn’t seem particularly right for me as a fan not only of his style but his character.

That's precisely what I want from characters period; a kit with enough depth to keep finding things for a while, and further differentiate between two play styles. In SFV, they released a character named Zeku, who can change between his "old" form and "young" form at will, and those two have different play styles. The combination of both gives Zeku the largest set of moves in the series, at 83 moves. To some, that'll be extremely overwhelming, but for me, I'd very much enjoy that, sooo many ways to delve into that character. It'll be more like turning your play style into an art form instead of just a competitive player (imo of course).

Of course, I like basic characters too (not tooo basic tho), since I'm limited on time. I need something functional and workable (why I main Zard), yet with some interesting properties that makes them a little deeper than what meets the eye (his dashing mechanics).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Umm, does it?

I feel like it is his air speed/laning options. If you buff his air speed too much then lol Dthrow to RAR bair is a true combo and that is really dumb for him to have off a grab. And of the heavies, I honestly think he has better landing options than all of them. Traction I am not sure, in what ways does it?

Simple it makes things like fair, ftilt, dtilt, and dsmash all a shield punish on most shieldable moves. Zard is meant to be played in a 'bait-and-punish' style. However thanks to zard's terrible traction he can't punish properly while in shield. A lot of his poor MUs would be helped considerably if he had better traction. Not to mention give him actual approach options versus projectile users. His poor traction leaves him super vulnerable to projectile spam. Even if he shields the projectile pushes him too far backwards ruining the approach, especially considering his excellent dash speed.
A lot of moves push zard too far back for him to properly shield punish a move.

 

[DatKirby15]

That's precisely what I want from characters period; a kit with enough depth to keep finding things for a while, and further differentiate between two play styles. In SFV, they released a character named Zeku, who can change between his "old" form and "young" form at will, and those two have different play styles. The combination of both gives Zeku the largest set of moves in the series, at 83 moves. To some, that'll be extremely overwhelming, but for me, I'd very much enjoy that, sooo many ways to delve into that character. It'll be more like turning your play style into an art form instead of just a competitive player (imo of course).

Of course, I like basic characters too (not tooo basic tho), since I'm limited on time. I need something functional and workable (why I main Zard), yet with some interesting properties that makes them a little deeper than what meets the eye (his dashing mechanics).

Look, I think you missed my point that Kirby is supposed to be pretty surface level. Kirby’s Dream Land, as well as every Kirby game, was designed to be accessible for newcomers with challenges for the more experienced players too. Kirby is really good for that right now, with an easy to understand moveset that still has reasonable depth in his expansive string game. You may like a character with complexity, but what I was trying to say is that Kirby isn’t the right character to do that to. I mean, do what you like, but that’s just how I feel.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The only buff zard needs is to his traction. Think about how good zard would be if shielding didn't send him flying backwards. It would help his punish game immensely.
I already said this though, question is how do you measure traction buffs?

Charizard probably needs more than just a traction increase. Its air speed could also deserve a buff (probably up to 1.09), not just to compensate for Fly's limited horizontal travel distance, but to also avoid having to rely on Flare Blitz, which could backfire on Charizard if anyone is in its path.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Charizard probably needs more than just a traction increase. Its air speed could also deserve a buff (probably up to 1.09), not just to compensate for Fly's limited horizontal travel distance, but to also avoid having to rely on Flare Blitz, which could backfire on Charizard if anyone is in its path.

Tbh I never really liked Flare Blitz, I switch to either Blast Burn (with it's ability to break shields and much higher explosive radius), or Dragon Rush (doesn't do any damage to you if you use it so it's an easily spammed move), Flare Blitz is too easy to counter, can get you jablocked (or just locked in general) and the payoff for connecting with it is extremely underwhelming considering that you're hurting yourself when you use it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Look, I think you missed my point that Kirby is supposed to be pretty surface level. Kirby’s Dream Land, as well as every Kirby game, was designed to be accessible for newcomers with challenges for the more experienced players too. Kirby is really good for that right now, with an easy to understand moveset that still has reasonable depth in his expansive string game. You may like a character with complexity, but what I was trying to say is that Kirby isn’t the right character to do that to. I mean, do what you like, but that’s just how I feel.

A Scrub needs to say something, I see him liking a lot of stuff, but not saying anything lol.

And to be honest, I don't really care about sticking to source material that strictly, so his "proper design" don't mean a thing to me, toooo limiting. I'm about making sure all characters have at least one property about them that allows creative play. Kirby's inhale is a heavily situational move, and one that I thought wasn't very developed into his kit.

Also, pretty much every character is easy to play. The ones with more intimidating move sets are too weak to compete, or relies completely on their expressive tools with a weak foundation (weak normals. Think Duck Hunt).

 

[DatKirby15]

A Scrub needs to say something, I see him liking a lot of stuff, but not saying anything lol.

And to be honest, I don't really care about sticking to source material that strictly, so his "proper design" don't mean a thing to me, toooo limiting. I'm about making sure all characters have at least one property about them that allows creative play. Kirby's inhale is a heavily situational move, and one that I thought wasn't very developed into his kit.

Also, pretty much every character is easy to play. The ones with more intimidating move sets are too weak to compete, or relies completely on their expressive tools with a weak foundation (weak normals. Think Duck Hunt).

I mean, if a character doesn’t feel like that character should, why don’t you just replace them with someone else with the same moveset? Sticking to source material and trying to make beloved, well established characters feel like just that instead of vessels for movesets is most important, especially in Smash. Think about what would happen if Bowser and Ganon didn’t focus on fear factor, or if Mario was some really specialized fighter instead of the jack of all trades he so consistently represents? What if Sonic was slow and deliberate rather than his fast and risky rushdown? It wouldn’t matter if these characters were better because of it; they wouldn’t feel like them, and they’d lose a lot of appeal from fans. Kirby doesn’t have to be bad because he’s easy (just like his great games) and that’s the only flaw in his design; his lack of viability (which is a few problems, but the idea behind his moves wouldn’t have to change).
Also, plenty of characters in this game are more complex than Kirby and certainly are complex in their own right. Toon Link, Mega Man, and Ryu are just a few examples of technically complex characters that can compete, and there’s plenty more with a steeper learning curve than Kirby for sure. There are plenty of characters that are easy and can teach you the game well like Kirby can such as Mario and Yoshi, but that doesn’t mean Kirby shouldn’t also be easy. Kirby represents his series in a perfect way, being welcoming for beginners with his straightforward attacks and objectives but with a distinct playstyle that can satisfy someone willing to go deeper. He doesn’t have to be complex to be great, which is just fine.

 

[RIku434]

Charizard probably needs more than just a traction increase. Its air speed could also deserve a buff (probably up to 1.09), not just to compensate for Fly's limited horizontal travel distance, but to also avoid having to rely on Flare Blitz, which could backfire on Charizard if anyone is in its path.

Speaking of Charizard I think his Up B should have Armor for a few more frames so it is harder to gimp.

 

[A Scrub]

A Scrub needs to say something, I see him liking a lot of stuff, but not saying anything lol.

And to be honest, I don't really care about sticking to source material that strictly, so his "proper design" don't mean a thing to me, toooo limiting. I'm about making sure all characters have at least one property about them that allows creative play. Kirby's inhale is a heavily situational move, and one that I thought wasn't very developed into his kit.

Also, pretty much every character is easy to play. The ones with more intimidating move sets are too weak to compete, or relies completely on their expressive tools with a weak foundation (weak normals. Think Duck Hunt).

Disclaimer: I'm on my phone so sorry for autocorrect.


Well Sakurai did start with source material in mind, so that is something to be aware of.

Kirby is a simplified game. It is to get people into the gaming in general. Its basic, and fairly straightforward, which is just like his smash kit.

Having weakness' that each character plays around d makes the game interesting. It really makes the meta fun to watch. Imo there needs to be top tiers, but there also needs to be mid tiers. It makes it hype.

When Hikaru and T pulled off their wins at civil war, it was freakin hype.

But having top tiers makes the game more consistent as well. If you don't have any form of consistency, pro gamers will flock to something better. Mid tiers are fun to watch for the sake of..... They're not so common in high level play! If you buff your fav character to top tier, and everyone plays it, then what makes them different? Ranai is only 40 or 50 on the pr but people get hype when he's out. Nobody plays villager so it's dope.

Mid tiers are cool for just that, they are less common. No fighter is balanced, you just learn to work around your weaknesses.

Like I said before, smash 4 is really, really balanced. All low tiers need is a quality of life patch to give them a little more oomph, and they can compete with high tier at top level play.

Patching everyone into top tier is a bad idea.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I mean, if a character doesn’t feel like that character should, why don’t you just replace them with someone else with the same moveset? Sticking to source material and trying to make beloved, well established characters feel like just that instead of vessels for movesets is most important, especially in Smash. Think about what would happen if Bowser and Ganon didn’t focus on fear factor, or if Mario was some really specialized fighter instead of the jack of all trades he so consistently represents? What if Sonic was slow and deliberate rather than his fast and risky rushdown? It wouldn’t matter if these characters were better because of it; they wouldn’t feel like them, and they’d lose a lot of appeal from fans. Kirby doesn’t have to be bad because he’s easy (just like his great games) and that’s the only flaw in his design; his lack of viability (which is a few problems, but the idea behind his moves wouldn’t have to change).
Also, plenty of characters in this game are more complex than Kirby and certainly are complex in their own right. Toon Link, Mega Man, and Ryu are just a few examples of technically complex characters that can compete, and there’s plenty more with a steeper learning curve than Kirby for sure. There are plenty of characters that are easy and can teach you the game well like Kirby can such as Mario and Yoshi, but that doesn’t mean Kirby shouldn’t also be easy. Kirby represents his series in a perfect way, being welcoming for beginners with his straightforward attacks and objectives but with a distinct playstyle that can satisfy someone willing to go deeper. He doesn’t have to be complex to be great, which is just fine.

Those are extreme changes. I suck with my wording so try to bear with my madness, but I'm not for completely throwing away source material; I'm just not on board with a literal copy and paste down to their absolute last pixel. Kirby having that inhale buff wouldn't stray far from his source material, and would only make him a bit more complex. That not a bad deviation imo. That slow sonic stuff you mentioned is a mess.
And those three characters aren't really complex. Ryu isn't complex, his inputs just messes with people, and mega man and toon link aren't my cup of tea (also they need all of their tools to stay afloat; I'd rather have a character with a strong foundation, with something extra for the creative bunch). If snake was copied and pasted from brawl to here, that'd be my main. Or if bowser jr got really good buffs.

Disclaimer: I'm on my phone so sorry for autocorrect.


Well Sakurai did start with source material in mind, so that is something to be aware of.

Kirby is a simplified game. It is to get people into the gaming in general. Its basic, and fairly straightforward, which is just like his smash kit.

Having weakness' that each character plays around d makes the game interesting. It really makes the meta fun to watch. Imo there needs to be top tiers, but there also needs to be mid tiers. It makes it hype.

When Hikaru and T pulled off their wins at civil war, it was freakin hype.

But having top tiers makes the game more consistent as well. If you don't have any form of consistency, pro gamers will flock to something better. Mid tiers are fun to watch for the sake of..... They're not so common in high level play! If you buff your fav character to top tier, and everyone plays it, then what makes them different? Ranai is only 40 or 50 on the pr but people get hype when he's out. Nobody plays villager so it's dope.

Mid tiers are cool for just that, they are less common. No fighter is balanced, you just learn to work around your weaknesses.

Like I said before, smash 4 is really, really balanced. All low tiers need is a quality of life patch to give them a little more oomph, and they can compete with high tier at top level play.

Patching everyone into top tier is a bad idea.

Why not just make everyone strong? Hype is temporary; nothing stays hype for a long time, and hype imo, shouldn't spawn from character picks, but how the players play. After all, characters are just tools you use to win.

I remember watching mvc2 (look it up if you don't know it, and look up "mvc2 sbr" on YouTube) and just know that in mvc2, 10-11 characters out of 55-ish characters are viable, so there are a lot of similar teams. However, it doesn't matter, as you can tell who's who just from how they play. It's a team fighter, so 3v3, and the ordering of the team (anchor, point, assist, etc..) matters heavily.

I suck at wording, so watch and see what I mean.

 

[Lavani]

Mid tiers are fun to watch for the sake of..... They're not so common in high level play! If you buff your fav character to top tier, and everyone plays it, then what makes them different?

This is a strange stance to take. If one had the goal to theoretically buff all characters to be top tier, and if all characters theoretically had equal desire to be played, you're looking at a less than 2% chance of someone playing any given character. That's too common for the sake of enjoyment?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can I interject and say that I typically like seeing a wide variety of characters being used, seeing the same characters get used over and over again to me is dull and boring.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Tbh I never really liked Flare Blitz, I switch to either Blast Burn (with it's ability to break shields and much higher explosive radius), or Dragon Rush (doesn't do any damage to you if you use it so it's an easily spammed move), Flare Blitz is too easy to counter, can get you jablocked (or just locked in general) and the payoff for connecting with it is extremely underwhelming considering that you're hurting yourself when you use it.

Ironically, using Counter against Flare Blitz isn't too rewarding, since you're only blocking the weak hit that comes before the explosion. Additionally, because the explosion is not part of Charizard's body script data, it does not get the damage multiplier benefits that the Super Mushroom offers. On the other hand, the explosion won't deal less damage than normal if Charizard is tiny, so it can be devastating against opponents during a tiny special smash bout.

 

[DatKirby15]

Those are extreme changes. I suck with my wording so try to bear with my madness, but I'm not for completely throwing away source material; I'm just not on board with a literal copy and paste down to their absolute last pixel. Kirby having that inhale buff wouldn't stray far from his source material, and would only make him a bit more complex. That not a bad deviation imo. That slow sonic stuff you mentioned is a mess.
And those three characters aren't really complex. Ryu isn't complex, his inputs just messes with people, and mega man and toon link aren't my cup of tea (also they need all of their tools to stay afloat; I'd rather have a character with a strong foundation, with something extra for the creative bunch). If snake was copied and pasted from brawl to here, that'd be my main. Or if bowser jr got really good buffs.




Why not just make everyone strong? Hype is temporary; nothing stays hype for a long time, and hype imo, shouldn't spawn from character picks, but how the players play. After all, characters are just tools you use to win.

I remember watching mvc2 (look it up if you don't know it, and look up "mvc2 sbr" on YouTube) and just know that in mvc2, 10-11 characters out of 55-ish characters are viable, so there are a lot of similar teams. However, it doesn't matter, as you can tell who's who just from how they play. It's a team fighter, so 3v3, and the ordering of the team (anchor, point, assist, etc..) matters heavily.

I suck at wording, so watch and see what I mean.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but making Kirby focus on star spit getup reads really does fundamentally stray from Kirby. Getup reads and focusing on untechable situations is pretty hard to do, and Kirby is, in every principle, about being simple. It doesn’t stop him from being fun (he’s probably one of the most fun characters, from my own opinion and many others’) and it shouldn’t stop him from being good (SMASH 64) but Kirby is built on being easy to understand but offering plenty for those who want to take it a few notches further (which he does, because he has tons of combos and stuff like hup cancel). I also don’t know how you can say that you like characters with a strong foundation that don’t need all of their moves when you main Zard, who doesn’t really have much going for him at all. Yeah, I know I main Kirby, but I’m not saying things like that.

No one is saying that there aren’t diverse playstyles or hype things coming from top tiers, but mid tiers are more interesting to watch because they have to play differently to characters who have a lot for anything. I know Toon Link a bit because I secondary him, so I’ll use him as an example even though he’s a little better than mid tier. Toon Link obviously has one of the best projectile zoning games, but has some problems if the opponent gets close because of his endlaggy options and somewhat lacking combos. The Toon Link then has to play so the opponent can’t get close, doing everything they can if they do get close. The excitement is in seeing how they mitigate their flaws and how they play to their strengths, rather than just picking the right option from your whole grab bag.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Simple it makes things like fair, ftilt, dtilt, and dsmash all a shield punish on most shieldable moves. Zard is meant to be played in a 'bait-and-punish' style. However thanks to zard's terrible traction he can't punish properly while in shield. A lot of his poor MUs would be helped considerably if he had better traction. Not to mention give him actual approach options versus projectile users. His poor traction leaves him super vulnerable to projectile spam. Even if he shields the projectile pushes him too far backwards ruining the approach, especially considering his excellent dash speed.
A lot of moves push zard too far back for him to properly shield punish a move.

Interesting, even as a Zard main I haven’t felt this but it would be something I would like to look into.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Well, I hate to break it to you, but making Kirby focus on star spit getup reads really does fundamentally stray from Kirby. Getup reads and focusing on untechable situations is pretty hard to do, and Kirby is, in every principle, about being simple. It doesn’t stop him from being fun (he’s probably one of the most fun characters, from my own opinion and many others’) and it shouldn’t stop him from being good (SMASH 64) but Kirby is built on being easy to understand but offering plenty for those who want to take it a few notches further (which he does, because he has tons of combos and stuff like hup cancel). I also don’t know how you can say that you like characters with a strong foundation that don’t need all of their moves when you main Zard, who doesn’t really have much going for him at all. Yeah, I know I main Kirby, but I’m not saying things like that.

No one is saying that there aren’t diverse playstyles or hype things coming from top tiers, but mid tiers are more interesting to watch because they have to play differently to characters who have a lot for anything. I know Toon Link a bit because I secondary him, so I’ll use him as an example even though he’s a little better than mid tier. Toon Link obviously has one of the best projectile zoning games, but has some problems if the opponent gets close because of his endlaggy options and somewhat lacking combos. The Toon Link then has to play so the opponent can’t get close, doing everything they can if they do get close. The excitement is in seeing how they mitigate their flaws and how they play to their strengths, rather than just picking the right option from your whole grab bag.

Listen bruh, we just have to agree to disagree lol, there will not be a ending to this.

 

[SJMistery]

The only buff zard needs is to his traction. Think about how good zard would be if shielding didn't send him flying backwards. It would help his punish game immensely.
I already said this though, question is how do you measure traction buffs?

Making Flare Blitz's recoil techable would help him immensely too.

 

[RIku434]

Little Mac Tbh needs better air acceleration. He has the 2nd worst air accelleration in thr game which makes it take too long to get to his max air speed, which makes his recovery game even more crud. His air speed is decent, if only hid air acceleration was too to actually make his air speed useful.

 

[Guido65]

For : there's one that should be fixed so its not super misleading:

Standing and pivot grabs: Make the visual effects of his standing and pivot grab come out later. Currently the visual effect for his standing and pivot grab comes out frame 6 but standing grab doesn't actually grab until frame 11 and pivot until frame 8. Make the visuals come out 3 frames later so it looks less misleading.

 

[Ad3n]

Make Jigglypuff have grab into rest set ups, make rest like melee but kills at like 30. Faster up air and make down air like Kirby’s. USEFUL NEUTRAL AND UP SPECIALS

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Make Jigglypuff have grab into rest set ups, make rest like melee but kills at like 30. Faster up air and make down air like Kirby’s. USEFUL NEUTRAL AND UP SPECIALS

Oh God no. What have you done? (the useful neutral and up special is good, but the rest of it DEAR GOD WHY!?)

You just made puff better than cloud, and more cancerous than sonic.

 

[R3D3MON]

Make Jigglypuff have grab into rest set ups, make rest like melee but kills at like 30. Faster up air and make down air like Kirby’s. USEFUL NEUTRAL AND UP SPECIALS

Nice! Just because she's a 'joke character" doesn't mean she can't be feared.
We need more scary floaties :D