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If You Could Patch SSB4...?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rizen, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Rizen

    Rizen
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    If you were in charge of a balance patch for SSB4 what changes would you make? The idea is to make the best competitive experience possible. Check here for the current data:
    http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Rizen

    Rizen
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    Here's what I'd change (wip):
    :4bayonetta2:
    Reduce upB, sideB hitbubbles. UpB startup frame 4>7. Remove bat within feature from dodges so she actually has bad dodges. Make bullet arts a projectile/reflectable. Decrease witch time duration and make the move an AoE counter so long attacks like Zairs won't trigger the slow down. Jumpsquat frame 4>6. B/Dair landing lag increases.

    The idea is to give bayo a weakness in dodges to counteract her other options in disadvantage. She's an excellent zoner and needs to be move vulnerable to qcq. Her combos still work but need to be more precise and are more susceptible to disjointed attacks, previously upB outranged most swords.
    :4cloud:
    Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs.

    Cloud can force approaches with limit charge, has a projectile and a bigger sword than Ike; he deserves the same jumpsquat as Link and Robin. He already has great mobility that excede's Marcina's, there's no reason limit should make Cloud faster in the air than Yoshi and he isn't rewarded for being hit offstage with more charge. Minor lag balances Cloud's impressive reach by giving him move vulnerability when throwing out attacks. Limit is still a powerful kill tool but kills a bit later now. Cloud is still a powerful, aggressive fighter.
    :4diddy:
    Add 3 frames to Dtilt start up and FAF. Reduce Fair hitbubble size. Add end lag and nerf kbg to smashes, sideB, Utilt. Increase banana pull FAF by 10 frames.

    Dtilt combos the same but has more tilt-like startup so it doesn't outspeed most ground options. His Fair matched sword reach so it will be a bit shorter. Diddy previously could frame 4 Dtilt>Usmash kill at 110%, now he frame 7 Dtilt>Usmash kills at 130%. Bananas are slightly more risky to pull in neutral. Diddy's still a quick bait and combo character with a little more vulnerability and later kills.
    :4sonic:
    Slight nerfs to damage and/or kill power for moves that apply.

    Sonic plays the same game with a little less reward.
    :4fox:
    Increase Usmash end lag, slightly nerf power. Nerf Uair landing lag. Slightly increase Utilt start up and FAF. Increase sideB landing and end lag.

    Same Fox but his vortex works at later %s.
    :rosalina:
    Reduce luma's HP by 10. Nerf jab, Uair kill power. Increase luma's jab start up, 4>5. Slight hitbubble reduction on ring attacks.
    :4zss:
    Startup/FAF slight increase to Jab, Utilt. Reduce flip kick attack sizes, increase end lag. Slightly lower air speed.
    :4mario:
    Increase end lag on power moves like smashes so they're less safe to throw out. Increase KBG on Utilt/Uair so they don't string as long.
    :4sheik:
    Increase Fair kbg. Add a frame to jumpsquat 4>5. Increase needle charge/throw start up. Lower vanish, Uair BKB. Buff Dsmash kill power. Lower bouncing fish kbg.
    :4mewtwo:
    Reduce run and air speed. Increase shadow ball charge time and endlag. Decrease Fair kbg. Slightly nerf Dtilt's range.

    ...I'll keep adding to this.
     
    #2 Rizen, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    Jasku and DefaultRed like this.
  3. origamiscienceguy

    origamiscienceguy
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    I cannot speak for other characters, but for :4jigglypuff::

    If the opponent is on their last stock, make rest always normal KO.
    If the opponent is not on their last stock, make rest always star/screen KO.
     
  4. R3D3MON

    R3D3MON
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    This entire thread contradicts itself lol
     
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  5. origamiscienceguy

    origamiscienceguy
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    In what way?
     
  6. Lavani

    Lavani
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    :4bayonetta:
    - UpB hitboxes moved a couple units downward. Now transcendent, allowing items, projectiles, Dragon Lunge, Luma, etc. to hit through or trade with it.
    - Landing lag for multiple midair specials increased.

    :4cloud:
    - Uair first active frame 7→8

    That's about it.
     
    Lil Puddin likes this.
  7. Shizuka Kawai

    Shizuka Kawai
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    While I, a 56-year old lady, am not competitive I've studied frame data long enough to suggest some changes:
    • :4miibrawl: - A few more active frames on its f-smash to mitigate its heinous recovery frames
    • :4miisword: - give its d-air an auto-cancel on frame 50 and a slight increase on the landing hit's KB (120 KBG => 149 KBG)
    • :4miigun: - U-air's landing lag is halved; the WBKB on its f-smash is increased slightly (I've witnessed :4kirby: and :4jigglypuff: fall out between hits 1 and 2 and shield the rest)
    • :4ganondorf: - earlier auto-cancel for short-hop d-air; more KB on Dark Dive (maybe back to its Melee level)
    • :4zelda: - the landing lag on f-air and b-air are reduced to 18 frames and the sourspot does 6% with higher BKB (5 => 20 BKB)

    Why would you want to do this? Does she not suffer landing lag this side of :4bowser:'s back-air doing both Witch Twists and both Afterburner Kicks together?

    Sayonara :kirby:
     
    #7 Shizuka Kawai, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  8. Guido65

    Guido65
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    :4bayonetta::make her only able to follow up fair 1 with fair 2 and fair 3,reduce witch twists range signifigantly,or make her Not get dabk back after being hit out of it + remove triple jump.

    :4cloud::remove limit mobility buffs + make up air frame 8 so it doesn't hit so low. + increase bairs landing lag to 18 frames. Not sure about nerfing limit moves if the mobility buff is gone as its the kill power of those + limit mobility thats problematic. Jumpsquat to frame 5.

    For my main::4miisword:: he's not that bad but I would want these little changes to him.
    Give him a frame 5 jumpsquat.

    Increase run speed from 1.5 to 1.6.

    Increase air acceleration from 0.04 to 0.06.

    Increase air friction from 0.0038 to 0.0075

    Increase air speed from 0.96 to 1.02

    Increase dash speed from 1.3 to 1.5.

    Blind spot fixes on jab,up tilt, and down tilt to fully cover blade.

    Nair also gets Blind spot fixes to cover whole sword but lower startup to frame 7 to start from behind to remove Blind spot there.

    Up tilt all hitboxes have 8 damage 30 bkb and 150 kbg to give a late kill move akin to diddy up tilt.

    Up throw is now a stock cap throw at around 150%.

    These small changes would go a very long way.

    Disagree with bolded.

    Zss's flip kick already has a lot of endlag, and her air speed shouldn't be touched. Mewtwo could have his second run speed buff reverted but eh I don't think it matters. Just nerf shadow ball endlag and I think he'd be fine. Those sheik nerfs aren't really what needs nerfed about her just make the kbg lower or remove transcendent priority. Diddy nerfs are too harsh in my eyes just increase dtilt kbg so it doesn't confirm forever,mario doesn't need nerfed fox up smash doesn't need touched, clouds jumpsquat would be fine at frame 5, bayos jumpsquat is fine
     
    #8 Guido65, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  9. Tizio Random

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    I have an entire document with very specific changes to all characters I would apply, but if I had to do one patch without touching every single one of them it would be like this.
    Heavily nerfed: :4bayonetta::4cloud2:
    Nerfed: :4diddy::4zss::rosalina:
    Slightly nerfed: :4sheik::4fox::4sonic::4mario::4mewtwo:
    Slightly buffed: :4samus::4link::4duckhunt::4yoshi::4robinm::4pit::4darkpit::4pacman::4rob::4myfriends::4feroy:
    Buffed: :4palutena::4littlemac::4wario::4kirby::4shulk::4falco::4drmario::4charizard::4wiifit:
    Heavily buffed: :4bowserjr::4zelda::4jigglypuff::4dedede::4ganondorf:

    All the not listed characters have either counterbalanced nerfs and buffs to compensate or are left intact.
     
  10. R3D3MON

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    Nerfing characters doesn't make a game more competitive. In fact, me and many others would argue nerfing achieves just the opposite effect.

    The OP should never have claimed this thread to achieve "the best competitive experience possible".
     
    #10 R3D3MON, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  11. xzx

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    Well, for starters I would remove rage effect, reduce air dodge landing lag (22 frames -> 9 frames), make a toggle for ledge trumping/how the ledges functions in previous Smash titles, same for stage hazards, give every dodge (except spot dodge) more end lag and slightly less invincibility frames, make shields have less health, add more shield stun and improve the shield push back.

    Then I'd go for the character balance.
     
    R3D3MON likes this.
  12. origamiscienceguy

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    To be fair, the OP said "balance" not nerf. It was the responders who immediately wanted to nerf everything under the sun. (I didn't, of course, because I am just awesome like that.)
     
  13. R3D3MON

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    • User was warned for this post
    Notice how the very first response in this thread was by the OP himself, who nerfed every top tier in the game?

    This guy loves to boast about garbage tier characters and **** talk top tier characters and players all the ****ing time in the competitive impressions thread. Stop defending this cuck.

    Mods, please move this thread to general. This isn't even remotely "competitive".
     
    #13 R3D3MON, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  14. origamiscienceguy

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    I did not realize it was the same person, however, there is no reason for you to troll this thread just because you disagree with a poster. Just ignore it. It is his opinion that toip tiers should be nerfed. I do not agree with that opinion, but I respect it.
     
  15. R3D3MON

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    And I'm telling you that you really shouldn't. This is his entire rhetoric in every thread ever, bruh.
     
  16. MercuryPenny

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    proper balance requires conservative use of both buffs and nerfs and those have to be, in themselves, reasonable. granted, smash is largely fun because of stupid design choices, so something like a slightly less extreme melee falco laser wouldn't be out of place in a game where mewtwo has a frame 6 fair that kills. however, there's a fine line between those and a melee fox shine or a witch time, and once you start giving everyone those you end up going into the realm of power creep where everyone's too powerful, or relies on a select few things that are too powerful.

    i'd say bayonetta and diddy are the only ones who deserve to be actually nerfed. everyone else needs to be balanced out with both buffs and nerfs so you don't have stuff like killing at 20% with the middle hits of a character's up-b, but they're also able to hold their own against characters with massive, fast disjoints or incredible punish games.

    ---

    out of curiosity; how would you guys buff jigglypuff reasonably?
     
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  17. Lavani

    Lavani
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    Those are moves that serve very different purposes. Bayo actually gets less landing lag for UpB > SideB > SideB > UpB > landing bair than Lucario does for simply landing onstage with upB (something that could also probably stand to have its 1.0.4 nerf reverted, but I digress), and she has the option to cancel that landing lag entirely by landing with Witch Time. Considering the vast options she has for landing locations if she hasn't yet used all her recovery moves, and her aerials still being usable after them, and the Witch Time mixup, increasing the landing lag and incentivizing the mixup (making it more predictable) seems the best way to address that.

    Witch Twist > ABK away is also exceedingly safe for how fast it starts, how far it moves her away, and what she gets from it on hit. And, again, the multitude of options she has to mix it up (ABK/dABK left/right? dABK off shield? Double jump first? Aerial/Witch Time/airdodge/etc. instead of ABK?). A few extra frames would make getting a dash attack/dash grab punish more feasible.

    tl;dr she's very safe for her risk:reward and has a multitude of options open to her that other characters don't get. Increased special landing lag ups her risk a bit without removing her unique qualities or affecting her combo game.
     
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  18. Rizen

    Rizen
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    My list is a work in progress and only has top tiers so far so there's a lot of nerfs. I'm going to buff worse characters.
     
  19. origamiscienceguy

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    Read my post, I give a reasonable buff that makes rest unpublishable if it kills. Other than that frustrating thing fixed, everything else is fine. She's the joke character. She's suppos d to be bad. Maybe make up throw kill at around 180 or so. But nothing more than that.
     
  20. Guido65

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    Could you explain why zss needs nerfed?
     
  21. SolidSense

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    These aren't reasonable balance changes; you're making half the top tiers into bottom tiers. Cloud with those changes would be worse than Ganon.
     
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  22. Rizen

    Rizen
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    That's ridiculous. :4cloud: weighs 100, Link's 104. He without limit has the 10th best run speed, 14th best air speed with a huge sword. He has a frame 5 Nair that hits all around him, auto cancel Dair that's huge, killing Bair with Shulk's reach and 14 frames of lag, a frame 9 DA that kills at 130%, frame 7 sliding Dtilt with leg intangibility, frame 8 Dsmash, frame 4 jab (I'd nerf it to 5) and Limit would still be a good kill option even if it doesn't kill at 65%. My changes are fine:

    "Make limit not buff Cloud's stats or charge from being hit. Jump squat from frame 4>7. Increase Uair landing lag. Slight lag increases across the board. Slight limit kill power nerfs."

    Limit shouldn't make big sword Cloud faster in the air than Yoshi. A frame 7 js, same as Link and Robin is perfectly reasonable. Uair gives Cloud almost rosa like coverage with better air speed and he can land and combo from it; 12% 15 frames of landing lag, frame 7- Link's Fair (1 hit) is frame 14, 11% and 12 landing lag. Uair needs a nerf. Cloud would still be much better than Ganon currently is. He'd still be better than Link is.

    My aim is similar to @Tizio Random 's post. Nerf top tiers, buff low tiers and have everyone meet in mid tier.
     
    #22 Rizen, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  23. TDK

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    This would turn Rosa into a bottom 5 character. Please don't do this.
     
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  24. Rizen

    Rizen
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    Any little nerf and everyone instantly jumps to "oh no bottom tier". The same thing happened during the real balance patches, like for Bayo and she's arguably #1 atm.
    Luma's Uair has 110 base knock back, I've seen it kill off the top of SV at 30%. Rosa's rings have very wide hitbubbles in addition to disjoint and linger, she can beat Link's bombs thrown down and juggle for days. Luma's jab 3 has 60bkb, 150 kbg, only 4 damage though. By comparison Link's Fsmash 2 has 85bkb, 89 kbg, 13 damage. That's pretty ridiculous power for a frame 4 jab. Give these moves a little nerf. 10 hp reduction on Luma isn't too bad; Luma usually dies offstage before getting to that hp.
    Even with my changes Rosa has way too much going for her to even be low tier.

    Seriously go to a tournament and play Zelda or Ganon; there's a reason why they have very few results. None of my changes get close to their level.
     
    #24 Rizen, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  25. Mario & Sonic Guy

    Mario & Sonic Guy
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    There's too much for me to bring up on a single post, so I'll just display links to my own moveset edits.

    [​IMG]: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5244
    :4palutena:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4671
    :4charizard:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5808
    :4falco:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5851
    :4wario:[​IMG]: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5877
    :4ganondorf:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5339
    :4zelda:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5981
    :4littlemac:[​IMG]: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/6011
    :4dedede:: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/6047

    I'll also bring up my attribute edits during the process.
    Code:
    Mii Brawler
    -No changes
    
    Mii Swordfighter
    -No changes
    
    Mii Gunner
    -No changes
    
    Mario
    -No changes
    
    Donkey Kong
    -Run Speed: 1.7031 -> 1.705
    -Weight: 122 -> 124
    -Star Projectile Damage: 18 -> 20
    
    Link
    -Run Speed: 1.3944 -> 1.4
    
    Samus
    -Walk Speed: 1.0615 -> 1.062
    -Run Speed: 1.504 -> 1.51
    -Gravity: 0.077 -> 0.075
    -Fall Speed: 1.3 -> 1.25
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.08 -> 2
    -Weight: 108 -> 112
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.0615 -> 1.062
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 18
    
    Yoshi
    -Fall Speed: 1.29 -> 1.28
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.064 -> 2.048
    -Weight: 104 -> 102
    
    Kirby
    -Air Speed: 0.8 -> 1.04
    -Weight: 79 -> 77
    -Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
    
    Fox
    -Run Speed: 2.184 -> 2.2
    -Weight: 79 -> 80
    
    Pikachu
    -Run Speed: 1.85325 -> 1.855
    -Air Speed: 0.9118 -> 0.92
    -Weight: 79 -> 78
    -Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
    
    Luigi
    -Air Speed: 0.7341766 -> 0.92
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Captain Falcon
    -Walk Speed: 0.94 -> 0.96
    -Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.18
    -Fall Speed: 1.837 -> 1.85
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.9392 -> 2.96
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.94 -> 0.96
    
    Ness
    -Walk Speed: 0.8635 -> 0.875
    -Run Speed: 1.46265 -> 1.465
    -Air Acceleration: 0.09 -> 0.1
    -Air Speed: 0.9588 -> 0.96
    -Weight: 94 -> 97
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.8635 -> 0.875
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Peach
    -Run Speed: 1.4175 -> 1.45
    -Air Speed: 0.95 -> 1.19
    -Weight: 89 -> 85
    
    Bowser
    -Fall Speed: 1.39 -> 1.4
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.224 -> 2.24
    -Weight: 130 -> 132
    -Star Projectile Damage: 20 -> 22
    
    Zelda
    -Run Speed: 1.3 -> 1.36
    -Air Acceleration: 0.055 -> 0.1
    -Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.08
    -Fall Speed: 1.35 -> 1.22
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.16 -> 1.952
    
    Sheik
    -Run Speed: 2.016 -> 2.02
    -Air Speed: 1.1 -> 0.88
    -Weight: 81 -> 85
    -Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 13
    
    Marth
    -Star Projectile Damage: 13 -> 14
    
    Mr. Game & Watch
    -Walk Speed: 1.1242 -> 1.125
    -Run Speed: 1.5264 -> 1.55
    -Air Speed: 1.12 -> 1.15
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.1242 -> 1.125
    
    Ganondorf
    -Run Speed: 1.218 -> 1.2
    -Air Speed: 0.79 -> 0.8
    -Gravity: 0.107835 -> 0.10784
    -Weight: 113 -> 115
    -Star Projectile Damage: 17 -> 19
    
    Falco
    -Run Speed: 1.472 -> 1.92
    
    Wario
    -Weight: 107 -> 108
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
    
    Meta Knight
    -Walk Speed: 1.18 -> 1.19
    -Air Speed: 0.99 -> 0.8
    -Fall Speed: 1.66 -> 1.56
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.656 -> 2.496
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.18 -> 1.19
    
    Pit
    -Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
    -Run Speed: 1.66215 -> 1.663
    -Air Speed: 0.89 -> 0.9
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Zero Suit Samus
    -No changes
    
    Olimar
    -Fall Speed: 1.35 -> 1.3
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.16 -> 2.08
    -Weight: 79 -> 78
    -Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
    
    Diddy Kong
    -No changes
    
    King Dedede
    -Walk Speed: 0.98 -> 1
    -Air Speed: 0.63 -> 0.7
    -Weight: 119 -> 120
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.98 -> 1
    -Star Projectile Damage: 18 -> 20
    
    Ike
    -Walk Speed: 0.869 -> 0.87
    -Weight: 107 -> 108
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.869 -> 0.87
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
    
    Lucario
    -Air Speed: 1.09 -> 1.1
    -Fall Speed: 1.68 -> 1.56
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.688 -> 2.496
    -Weight: 99 -> 100
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    R.O.B.
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
    
    Toon Link
    -Walk Speed: 1.2265 -> 1.23
    -Run Speed: 1.7325 -> 1.75
    -Air Speed: 0.94 -> 1.14
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2265 -> 1.23
    
    Charizard
    -Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
    -Traction: 0.04 -> 0.06
    -Air Speed: 0.92 -> 1.09
    -Weight: 116 -> 118
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
    -Star Projectile Damage: 17 -> 19
    
    Sonic
    -Walk Speed: 1.375 -> 1.4
    -Weight: 94 -> 95
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.375 -> 1.4
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Jigglypuff
    -Run Speed: 1.155 -> 1.1
    -Air Speed: 1.269 -> 1.35
    -Gravity: 0.053088 -> 0.05309
    -Fall Speed: 0.98 -> 0.95
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 1.568 -> 1.52
    -Weight: 68 -> 70
    
    Dr. Mario
    -Walk Speed: 1.1 -> 1.188 (1.188 * 0.83 = 0.98604)
    -Run Speed: 1.6 -> 1.728 (1.728 * 0.83 = 1.43424)
    -Air Acceleration: 0.07 -> 0.0756 (0.0756 * 0.82 = 0.061992)
    -Air Speed: 1.15 -> 1.242 (1.242 * 0.81 = 1.00602)
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.1 -> 0.98604
    
    Lucina
    -Star Projectile Damage: 13 -> 14
    
    Dark Pit
    -Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
    -Run Speed: 1.66215 -> 1.663
    -Air Speed: 0.89 -> 0.9
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.199 -> 1.2
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Rosalina
    -Walk Speed: 1.0835 -> 1.09
    -Run Speed: 1.632 -> 1.65
    -Air Speed: 1 -> 1.25
    -Weight: 77 -> 85
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.0835 -> 1.09
    -Star Projectile Damage: 11 -> 13
    
    Wii Fit Trainer
    -Run Speed: 1.696 -> 1.7
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Little Mac
    -Walk Speed: 1.32 -> 1.35
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.32 -> 1.35
    
    Villager
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Palutena
    -Walk Speed: 1.21 -> 1.23
    -Run Speed: 1.888 -> 1.9
    -Air Speed: 0.91 -> 1.14
    -Weight: 91 -> 95
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.21 -> 1.23
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Robin
    -Walk Speed: 0.891 -> 0.9
    -Weight: 95 -> 98
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 0.891 -> 0.9
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Duck Hunt
    -Walk Speed: 1.155 -> 1.16
    -Fall Speed: 1.65 -> 1.55
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.64 -> 2.48
    -Weight: 91 -> 90
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.155 -> 1.16
    
    Bowser Jr.
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
    
    Shulk
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    Greninja
    -No changes
    
    PAC-MAN
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 15
    
    Mega Man
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    Mewtwo
    -Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
    -Fall Speed: 1.5 -> 1.68
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.4 -> 2.688
    -Weight: 74 -> 85
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.21
    -Star Projectile Damage: 11 -> 13
    
    Ryu
    -Weight: 103 -> 104
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    Lucas
    -Air Acceleration: 0.085 -> 0.09
    -Air Speed: 1.1 -> 1.05
    
    Roy
    -Fast-Fall Speed: 2.9 -> 2.88
    -Weight: 95 -> 100
    -Star Projectile Damage: 14 -> 16
    
    Cloud
    -Weight: 100 -> 104
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    Bayonetta
    -Weight: 84 -> 78
    -Star Projectile Damage: 12 -> 11
    
    Corrin
    -Walk Speed: 1.15 -> 1.2
    -Run Speed: 1.45 -> 1.5
    -Air Speed: 0.97 -> 1.15
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1.15 -> 1.2
    
    Giga Bowser
    -Star Projectile Damage: 61 -> 76
    
    Wario-Man
    -Weight: 107 -> 108
    -Star Projectile Damage: 16 -> 17
    
    Giga Mac
    -Star Projectile Damage: 21 -> 24
    
    Mega Lucario
    -Walk Speed: 1 -> 1.05
    -Run Speed: 1.4847 -> 1.55
    -Air Speed: 1.04 -> 1.1
    -Weight: 99 -> 100
    -Projectile Weapon Use Walk Speed: 1 -> 1.05
    -Star Projectile Damage: 15 -> 16
    
    Mii Brawler (Fighting Mii Team)
    -No changes
    
    Mii Swordfighter (Fighting Mii Team)
    -No changes
    
    Mii Gunner (Fighting Mii Team)
    -No changes
     
  26. TDK

    TDK
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    There's a difference between a little nerf to one or two elements of a kit and moderate nerfs to nearly every fundamental move to the character, plus a big nerf to Luma's HP. The HP nerf is probably the most manageable thing here, but what you did to jab is really unwarranted. Making it kill later is fine, adding 3 frames to make it as slow as Ganon's is not, and it completely destroys their neutral. Do you want to have your main move in neutral come out slower than most moves in the game? Ruining her neutral, plus weakening two of her main kill moves (probably her two main kill moves), removes her ability to compete at anything resembling viability. You've taken a character with a suffocating neutral and an occasional killing problem and turned them into a character with no neutral and bad killing. Also why'd you nerf Sheik's kill moves?

    Maybe bottom 5 was an exaduration, but this Rosa would be low tier for sure.
     
  27. MercuryPenny

    MercuryPenny
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    honestly, if your goal was to make rosaluma mid-tier, you didn't do enough. she's still solidly high-tier.

    she has more options. up smash is actually a pretty solid kill option, and luma shot can make it cover more options. rapid jab is still pretty much uninterruptible without actually hitting luma for god knows what reason, she still destroys grapplers, has pretty decent range, and even reducing the sizes of the hitboxes up air is still a ridiculously disjointed juggling tool that makes cloud's up air look like mario's.

    shield breaks still mean nothing to her and she has a natural advantage against grapplers because luma can still act out of both situations. her neutral is weaker but it's honestly still pretty average, and if mario is anything to go by, even characters with outright mediocre neutrals can get by.
     
    #27 MercuryPenny, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  28. Rizen

    Rizen
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    Even if luma's jab was completely removed, she'd have a good neutral. Rosas jab a lot because it's such a great option but luma still has things like a frame 3 (4 air) utilt. It's weird that rosa's jab is frame 8 but luma's is 4. I was thinking of rosa having a jab like bayo's- slow but racks up damage. Rosa herself has a really good usmash with front and top head intangibility, frame 6 grab/da/Dsmash, 5 Dtilt all with good range.
    You're right about frame 7 might be a bit much, 5's pretty standard for a zoner jab.

    What I'm trying to do is stop over-centralization of each character's moves. I think it would be a great exercise for Rosa players to play some games without jab and expand their strategy for tilts/pivots/etc. Rosa has solid moves that get overshadowed by jab.
     
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  29. TDK

    TDK
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    Rosa's jab isn't supposed to rack up damage. Its main goal is to quickly position Luma where you need her, and making it that slow guts the character. Even frame 5 would honestly be a bit too slow for what it does imo.
     
  30. Rizen

    Rizen
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    How would you balance top tiers?
     
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  31. SolidSense

    SolidSense
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    Smash Lord

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    A 3-frame jumpsquat nerf is enough to send any top character in the game to mid tier or below without any other changes alone. 3 frames is enormous. Balance is a delicate art, but the way you're proposing balancing things isn't delicate, it's a slaughterhouse. A 1-frame nerf to a move is usually enough to change the move completely. For instance, Diddy Kong's up-air being nerfed by the removal of 1 frame from the animation made it almost completely unusable as an aerial escape option in disadvantage. Multiple 1-frame nerfs would ruin even the best character. A nerf of 1 frame to a jumpsquat nerfs all aerials by 1 frame.

    Link and Cloud are almost incomparable. Link has an actual ground game, and it's a potent one, between projectiles and a huge tether grab with sizable reward. Cloud has nothing usable on the ground except for movement options, so of course Cloud is faster than Link. If Cloud were as slow as Robin or Link he would be almost completely unplayable, because both of those characters can force an approach with projectiles whereas Cloud can't. Cloud relies on the threat of Limit to force characters to approach him; if all Limit does is give Cloud a stronger side-b then I have no reason to fear Limit Cloud at all. Limit Cloud isn't scary because of the side-b. Limit Cloud is scary because of the mobility and the fact that up-air becomes a usable neutral tool with fastfall.

    With a 7-frame jumpsquat and additional landing lag on up-air and no stat buffs, Limit Cloud would be about as terrifying as moldy cheese. He'd also have absolutely mediocre airspeed so he'd lose Limit every time he got thrown off of the stage because other characters could just threaten him into an airdodge and force him to up-b.This means that not only is Cloud less incentivized to even charge Limit, but if he does get Limit, he loses it as soon as he gets thrown offstage.This would completely ruin Limit as a mechanic, there'd be almost no reason to have it go online at all. One extra kill move isn't enough motivation to waste time and sacrifice positioning by pressing down-b.

    The best character that I can compare your suggested Cloud to is Ike. Would I play this Cloud over Ike? Never. Ike has a much stronger ground game, a better recovery, and more than twice the grab reward. That Cloud has nothing over Ike at all. And Ike isn't a very good character to begin with; I hardly think that the line for balance should be somewhere below Ike, if that's what you're suggesting, yet most of your suggested changes make their targeted characters worse than Ike.
     
    #31 SolidSense, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  32. mimgrim

    mimgrim
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    Oki while I don't have anything to say towards actual changes to characters in this game, well other then asking if every character could Foxtrot like Cloud does plz, there a bunch of things wrong in terms of how to look at balacing.

    Now I'm not going to be one of those people who say don't nerf top tiers, because some times its needed and can help the meta game. But there is also a big difference between nerfing their kit to be less potent a d just straight up murdering or changing it. I would also say don't nerf top tiers until you buff bottom tiers. Giving the bottom an actually viable kit is way more important.

    Secondly aiming to make everyone a mid tier is a horrible idea and it would make the game boring af because it would end up with a lot of sameyness between the characters with all of them having undertuned kits. High tier is a much better goal to aim for because it allows more uniqueness and much better tunings of a character's kit.

    Thirdly you hafta look at more then just frame data and raw numbers, sometimes characters just need something drastic changed to them to make them better or give them better kits. Changing numbers only go so far.
     
  33. Rizen

    Rizen
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    1 Welcome to the life Robin and other zoners have to deal with.
    2 You're grossly exaggerating like when you said Cloud would be worse than Ganon; that's simply untrue.
    3 Link's fastest ground attack is frame 7 jab and his grab is 12; it's not that good.
    4 I never said that; try reading this post.
    5 This is a huge misunderstanding of limit breaks. Cross slash starts frame 10 and doesn't kill. Limit CS is intangible frames 6-11, can't rebound and kills at 65%. Same basic changes for all cloud's specials, suddenly blade beam kills instead of doing 8%. Limit is very powerful even without added buffs; Cloud's already more mobile than Marth, he shouldn't get faster than yoshi with that huge sword.
    6 like I said in the previous post, Cloud is 10th in run speed, 14th air speed, without Limit- faster run than MK, sheik's air speed, all this with a huge sword and good frame data. That beats every other sword character in both categories. Meanwhile Robin gets the worst run in the game, even butterknifes like pit are 24th and 50th. There is no reason he should get any faster.
    7 14th best is not "mediocre" air speed.
    8 his recovery without Limit is as good as CF's and he has a huge sword to protect him.
    9 first it was "worse than Ganon", now it's "as good as Ike". Except Cloud's more mobile than ike, can force approaches and has better frame data.


    I'm done with this conversation.
     
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  34. Luigi player

    Luigi player
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    Well, here would be some of my changes:

    1. remove "jank"-KOs
    :4bayonetta2:
    - upB -> hitboxes less disjointed
    - sideB -> hitboxes less disjointed/smaller
    - dtilt -> ~2 frames more endinglag
    - "3rd jump" removed
    - witchtime -> a pre-programmed counter attack similar to Lucario or something, where the opponent is slowed down while Bayo does like 2-3 hits or something (at first I thought about reducing the slowdown-time to about 66 %, but the main problem is still there... upBs or dsmashes could still easily set up for kills at any %, making it too risky trying to attack her, which is just too stupid imo)
    :4zss:
    - upB
    -> multihits now connect properly (can't fall out above to die off the top)
    -> vertical distance the move travels shortened a little bit (making it harder to drag opponent out at the top)
    -> less BKB (even if you don't fall out it's still too strong for a frame 4 move that combos off grab/uairs and can be done OOS)
    - downB
    -> less intangibility frames (startup 3->5?, and stop earlier as well)
    -> downB kick hitbox a bit smaller, KB also lowered a bit
    :rosalina:
    - downB -> a few frames more lag at the end
    - Luma
    -> longer time gone when KO'd (15-20 seconds maybe?)
    -> attacks (especially uair) have less BKB (to not be able to KO at the top/side at like 0 lol)
    :4metaknight:
    - uair to upB strings weakened (uair a little more endinglag and/or higher KBG)
    :4dk:
    - no more ding dong kills at early %s (still usable for combos at lower %; aka add more(?) KBG on cargo utoss)
    + make this char better in other ways, like: dsmash more KB (upper hitbox back from Brawl), fair a little less endinglag/make autocancel work, much less upB landing lag for a "good"/"lagless" landing, downB less endinglag in the air and less landinglag from it (to be able to use it to reverse momentum more and make it a little easier for this character to land, which is his main weakness)
    :4bowser:
    - no more early koo-pa kills (maybe still combos at lower %s)
    + add some invincibility on grounded upB again (like in Brawl?)

    :4samus:
    - upB -> no screw attack first hit jank kills
    :4peach:
    - upB -> no parasol jank kills

    2. weaken some options which are too strong
    :4diddy:
    - dtilt -> more KBG (so it can still combo at low %, but won't combo into KOs anymore)
    - sideB -> grab hitbox of sideB ends a little bit sooner (1-2 frames less active at the end?)
    - reduce weight by like 1-3 points (it feels like he lives just a tiny bit too long)
    - fair -> autocancel window reduced a little bit (harder/impossible to string fairs)
    + fair -> a little more KB again
    + dash attack -> less endinglag, to make it more like Brawl. I'm biased for this move because it was amazing and is now much more useless, make sure it won't combo into any kill confirms, though
    :4cloud:
    - uair -> a little less lingering hitbox (hitbox disappears sooner), also like the 1 frame more startup suggestion
    - limit -> no charge from getting hit, no or much less "stat-buffs" while having full limit
    - limit sideB -> less invincible frames (10-> 5? or something), a bit less knockback
    - limit downB -> lower KB (somehow making it able to not be completely broken in doubles), but now does more %
    - nair -> hitbox a little smaller
    :4fox:
    - uair -> does ~2 % less
    - dair -> remove landing hit (or give it less hitstun to not set up into free usmash-KOs)
    - somehow make fair->footstool not work anymore (harder to fall out of middle hits?)
    :4falcon:
    - dashgrab -> a little more endinglag (~2 frames?)
    :4greninja:
    - neutralB -> a little more endinglag
    :4wario2:
    - downB -> a little less KB for wafts so they won't KO at ~30 with rage
    + old (Brawl) fsmash back..

    3. fix "broken" stuff (broken as in too good or unintended difficulty; aka fix Luigis downB)
    :4luigi:
    - downB -> cyclone middle-hits now have a little less hitstun, so it can still be used to gimp, but not as well/crazy
    + downB -> easier to mash (you can now buffer the inputs to make it more bearable to play this char [still not easy to mash perfectly, but possible for a normal human being..])
    + just a tiiny bit more air mobility/deceleration to help him trying to land/get out of juggles :]
     
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  35. ILOVESMASH

    ILOVESMASH
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    The way I see it, it would be much better to nerf a top tier character's weaknesses rather than their strengths. Nerfing strength's never really fixes a top tier and just ends up making them feel more boring to play (see Shiek). Nerfing weaknesses actually makes counterplay to a character more consistent, while still keeping their fun elements in tact.

    For example, with Cloud, I would balance him by giving his recovery 10 more frames of startup and a weaker hitbox, and increase the endlag of all of his ground moves and throws. This would make edgeguarding his recovery much easier and the endlag increases to his unsafe tilts makes them require even more commitment and worsens his ability to pressure shields. Endlag increases to his throws makes it so that his already unrewarding grabs possess even less benefits since he won't be able to charge limit and the window for follow-ups would be much smaller.
     
  36. Rizen

    Rizen
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    It's fine to take a Brawl minus approach or whatever you want. My method is meet in the middle rather than leaving higher characters alone and super buffing low tiers to catch up. Make characters unique but as close in viability as possible. That means top tiers are getting nerfed. This happened to Diddy, Sheik and bayo in previous patches. Everyone thought their viability was killed, then players used their other options and they're all top 4 again.
     
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  37. mimgrim

    mimgrim
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    How did you even come to the conclusion of a Brawl Minus from what I said. Brawl Minus' goal is to make every character brokenly over powered to a gigantic degree.

    My suggestion is more in line with what Project M was trying to accomplish before it got disbanded.

    Bringing every character to the middle is just a bad idea because it takes away uniqueness from them and ends up streamlining them and giving similar goals. Do you want every character to be like Pit? I certainly wouldn't. But that is what would happen if it were to be done like that.

    Your approach in general is extremely bias against the actual good characters and will only serve to make the weaker characters bland rather then using what makes them unique in the first place and figuring out how its undertuned. Its a very narrow and short sited way to approach balancing and would kill the scene far quicker then anything else.

    Thats not to say I don't think nerfs to top tiers are unecerray but they need to be handled far more carefully then what you have shown and that buffing the undertuned should be a bigger priority then nerfing the overtuned.
     
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  38. KuroganeHammer

    KuroganeHammer
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    It's ya boy.

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    Jigglypuff: No changes
     
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  39. Rizen

    Rizen
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    Bringing every character to the middle simply sets the game's power level and has nothing to do with character uniqueness. Similarly Brawl minus could be balanced at an extreme power level.

    Can we please stick with productive posts? There are a lot of good posts in here, my favorite is @Luigi player 's so far. I'm really curious to hear how @KuroganeHammer would patch the game, since you archived the data.
     
    #39 Rizen, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  40. RIku434

    RIku434
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    :4kirby: -Air Speed increased (0.8 -> 0.9)
    -Dair comes out faster (Frame 18 -> Frame 14)
    -Nair comes out faster (Frame 10 -> Frame 5)
    - Up Air comes out faster (Frame 10 -> Frame 6)
    -Fair comes out faster (Frame 10 -> Frame 6)

    :4mario: -Decrease Air Speed (1.15 -> 0.98)
    That's all the changes I'd give Mario lol

    :4sonic: - Reduce Aerial Up B distance by 20%
    That's all the changes he gets too lol
     
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