If You Could Patch SSB4...?

[SJMistery]

tldr: please don't touch mewtwo

Ironic for you to say that. I guess you never got to play vanilla Mewtwo

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mewtwo's original moveset and attributes were not a good start, so it was a good thing that the software updates fixed up most of its problems. However, Mewtwo still suffers from being the second lightest fighter, and having a lackluster grab range that hinders its grab game.

 

[RIku434]

Would it be a good idea to change the angle of Kirby's Down B so that it can kill horizontally instead of Vertically? It would make it much more useful in edgegaurds imo, and could kill earlier offstage.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I'll just talk about the character I play and know the most about.

: Color me crazy but I see him as 38th - 42th out of 58. (About lower half of mid tier) His kit is fairly well rounded and contains some neat tricks at his disposable. But his poor range, weak recovery and mediocre mobility hold him back from being any better.
So this is how I would balance him to be around 16th to 20th (High tier) in the game:

-Stats:
Walk Speed: 0.902 to 1.02

Run Speed: 1.312 to 1.455

Air Speed: 0.943 to 1

Air Accleration: 0.0574 to 0.07


-Normals:
Jabs 2 and 3: Damage increased 1.68% to 2.8%, 4.48% to 5.6% (8.96% to 11.2%).

F-Tilt: Damage increased 7.84% to 8.96%.

F-Smash: Hitboxes now matches Mario's.

U-Smash: Knockback increased BKB 0 to 20.

Nair: Damage and knockback increased Sour/Early 5.6% to 6.72%, Late/Sweet 8.96% to 10.08%,
Late/Sweet-spot's knockback BKB 13 / KBG 90 to BKB 20 / KBG 100.

Fair: Sour hitboxes now match the Sweet-spot values. (11.2%/16.8%/10.8% to 16.8%)

Uair: Knockback readjusted to combo better: BKB 9 to 20, KBG 100 to 80.

Dair: Endlag decreased FAF 52 to 45 frames, autocancel window 45> to 30> frames, landing lag 21 to 19 frames.

BThrow: Knockback increased KBG 60 to 66.


-Specials:
Mega-vitamins: Late/Sour hitboxes now match the Early/Sweet-spot values 5.6%/4.48% to 5.6%,
BKB 35/28/22 to 35, KBG 20/15/10 to 20.

Super Sheet: Hitboxes now matches Mario's.

Super Jump Punch: Damage increased and Knockback readjusted Late/Sour 6.72% to 7.84%,
Early/Sweet BKB 30 to 64 KBG 100 to 81

Dr. Tornado: Multi-hit angles readjusted to connect better and damage increased 1.344% to 1.68%. (8.736% to 10.08%)

Just for fun: Fair, Sweet-spot of Super Jump Punch and 2nd/Back hit of D-Smash have an electric effect.



I'd appreciated feedback.

 

[DartMonkey]

Remove the DLC characters. The game was great before the DLC came out and Cloud and Bayo ruined it. Cloud literally makes doubles obsolete in entertainment. Bayo is totally broken in singles. Nobody wants to see these clowns over and over and over in tournaments taking over the smash world, but Nintendo doesn't seem to give a ****.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Remove the DLC characters. The game was great before the DLC came out and Cloud and Bayo ruined it. Cloud literally makes doubles obsolete in entertainment. Bayo is totally broken in singles. Nobody wants to see these clowns over and over and over in tournaments taking over the smash world, but Nintendo doesn't seem to give a ****.

Bayo def ain't broken lol pay more attention to results. Look at the data.

 

[R3D3MON]

Remove the DLC characters. The game was great before the DLC came out and Cloud and Bayo ruined it. Cloud literally makes doubles obsolete in entertainment. Bayo is totally broken in singles. Nobody wants to see these clowns over and over and over in tournaments taking over the smash world, but Nintendo doesn't seem to give a ****.

No.

Git Gud or get ****ed.

 

[RIku434]

Remove the DLC characters. The game was great before the DLC came out and Cloud and Bayo ruined it. Cloud literally makes doubles obsolete in entertainment. Bayo is totally broken in singles. Nobody wants to see these clowns over and over and over in tournaments taking over the smash world, but Nintendo doesn't seem to give a s**t.

If Bayonetta is broken in singles then why has she only won 2-3 majors out of all of the tournaments?

 

[Deleted member]

Remove the DLC characters. The game was great before the DLC came out and Cloud and Bayo ruined it. Cloud literally makes doubles obsolete in entertainment. Bayo is totally broken in singles. Nobody wants to see these clowns over and over and over in tournaments taking over the smash world, but Nintendo doesn't seem to give a ****.

Afraid I cannot agree with you, hun. I, a 56-year-old female smasher, say and are wonderful addition to the series. Now, especially Bayo since her character construct gives us a very good challenge despite the nerfing she got 1½ years ago. Yes, y'all will see them in high-level play often. And why not? Tournament success is what any smasher desires and they do appear to be easy to pick up due to their strengths.

Now...there is next to nothing you can do to stop this (except to not download them obviously). And, just saying, you can stop playing if you don't agree to these guys' presence.

Sayonara

 

[Krysco]

I mean, obviously no dlc is gonna get removed. Maybe in the next game but not in a patch. And if any individual had the power to do that then either congrats on all the money lost from refunds or congrats on essentially robbing people of a purchase they made.

I wouldn't mind nerfs to both Cloud and Bayo though, just not sure what to do with the former. I feel he should only be nerfed due to his clutch on doubles but it's not as simple as the nerf done to G&W to ruin bucket strats. He just so happens to have the perfect combination of throws to lead into team combos and finishers of team combos along with his ridiculous speed and range. I know the odd time my sparring buddy and I go on FG dubs (terrible place btw, never go there), the moment we find a group with even one Cloud, we either leave after one match or I go Cloud and we usually win. Then again, FG and FF dubs have no team attack for some reason.

Bayo is simple, increase start up on Witch Twist so having bad frame data is actually a weakness of hers, get rid of the triple jump glitch, either make her like Charizard and just have 2 midair jumps or give her a single midair jump. Idc if it's meant to help tap jump users with her combos. Every character suffers from using their double jump when they up b with tap jump on, she shouldn't be exempt. Otheriwse, patch that in for every character. Last nerf would be to make Witch Time scale with the damage or knockback of the move that triggered it.

Otherwise, I'm fine with the top and high tiers of this game and just wish the mid and low tiers didn't suck so damn bad.

 

[Lavani]

I think it's just easier to accept doubles as a lost cause at this point. It'd take something convoluted like nerfing the knockback on Limit moves if the target's suffering hitstun/knockdown from a different player to restrict Cloud in doubles specifically, and I'm not sure how feasible that actually is.

If people really hate Bayo's triple jump thing that much, my suggestion would be to make the second Witch Twist consume her double jump if she still hasn't used it. That way the safety net for getting both Twists out remains, but she can't save her jump after using both. I wouldn't mind seeing it applied to other characters as well though; not being a tap jump user, I hadn't realized characters like Mega Man didn't receive the same treatment.

 

[R3D3MON]

I think it's just easier to accept doubles as a lost cause at this point. It'd take something convoluted like nerfing the knockback on Limit moves if the target's suffering hitstun/knockdown from a different player to restrict Cloud in doubles specifically, and I'm not sure how feasible that actually is.

If people really hate Bayo's triple jump thing that much, my suggestion would be to make the second Witch Twist consume her double jump if she still hasn't used it. That way the safety net for getting both Twists out remains, but she can't save her jump after using both. I wouldn't mind seeing it applied to other characters as well though; not being a tap jump user, I hadn't realized characters like Mega Man didn't receive the same treatment.

The fact that people hate one of the only notable Smash 4-specific advanced technique to this degree is pretty pathetic. Speaks volumes about the community's standards.

 

[Krysco]

I'm personally against it since it feels like nothing more than a work around the default controls of the game. Every character benefits from being able to up special without having to use their double jump, most notably Yoshi and Megaman but no one else gets such a treatment. It doesn't feel like it's a feature given to Bayo to further make her unique but because they realized partway through making her that hitting and burns a double jump and partially ruins her combo game. If they wanted her to have a second midair jump, they'd just give her a second midair jump.

You look at any other tech and it's either a result of the kind of move (teleports cancelling at ledges when most directional recoveries don't, certain dash attacks in Brawl allowing DACUS) or universal and just a part of the game (wavedashing in Melee, glide tossing, both the roll variant and the jump cancelled variant, perfect pivoting).

The closest thing to compare this to is something I've only been told by my sparring buddy and idk if it's just a theory of his or if he read it somewhere but he told me that L-cancelling in Melee was put in because the developers wanted players to be able to shield faster after landing with an aerial, which checks out well enough since L and R (the buttons that activate shield) are what cut the landing lag in half and most casual players would hold the button. And even then, that's still a largely universal tech (only largely because G&W was coded poorly).

If this second double jump thing was given to the likes of Yoshi, Sonic, Megaman, R.O.B., lol Jigglypuff then I'd have no issue with it since that'd be similar to the teleport thing and just be a particular feature of recoveries that don't induce the helpless state. The dev team already made it clear that they didn't want much tech, let alone character specific tech when they removed stuff like Peach's lagless item pulling, Toon Link's bomb throws to replace landing lag, Greninja's landing with shadow sneak, DACUS, wectoring, specials being able to slip off edges and likely more. Yet for Bayo, they outright give her a tool that makes her already ridiculous recovery even better.

And to make things clear, that's actually the smallest of my 3 wants because even if it was done, her recovery and combo game would still be amazing, just not as much with tap jump on. The start up on Witch Twist and the scaling of Witch Time outright gives her weaknesses in overall poor startup lag and losing the ability to rack up crazy damage or possibly even a stock by reading a jab with a frame 5 counter that also has invincibility frames and a unique feature (which you may notice I never said should be nerfed) that can make punishing her for it more tricky.

Maybe it's unjustified disliking towards it though since I can admit to having a negative bias towards Bayo (she's the reason I gave up the idea of even playing this game competitively)

 

[Kusari]

It really all depends on what you call the "best competitive experience". For example, I heavily believe that a good competitive game has some good characters, but not too huge for it to be unbeatable, but some of my friends believe in completely equal character strengths and weaknesses, with nothing too "broken". If you were to make a new smash game, I would want something that heavily relies on a good neutral game and knowing what the character's options are easily. This means that the top tiers should have easily accessible options, but these options being possible to punish.
And now to talk about what I would think would work, (aka what I want) more hitstun or more sdi (not melee level, but to get out of witch twist) and a strength gap comparable to the Melee top 8, or top 10. I would never want Jigglypuff as she is right now, and I think every character should have a playstyle that is developable. For example, a great way to buff the Miis is by giving them ways to make the opponent approach, or a way to approach the opponent easier. Whether this be by a slightly unsafe approaching option for their sideb or making their speed + hitboxes faster, I would just want it to be possible for them to get near the opponent and pressure them with different types of pressure. (I think the same can be said for most other characters, many characters need reliable mixups and approaching options, and it would be interesting to see a understandable yet deep version of Smash Brothers, where all the characters have good options and every player can implement their playstyle into the game.
(I've only seen the competitive scene of video games for such a long time, I wouldn't understand many aspects of gaming, but I believe the Smash community is deserving of such a game that can be both what we as a community developed, but still a fun game for both casuals and community members can have fun playing, as I believe that's what it means to have a "Smash" game)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrrm, tbh I think the only nerf Bayo needs to stop all the whining is to make witch twist automatically go into it's second string after use (like pikachu's quick attack) that way using it becomes a much bigger risk since if you miss with it she goes into helpless falling mode automatically, this lets her keep her other ladder combo start-ups while also nerfing witch twist to such an extent that people actually have to think about using it instead of using it on reaction.

 

[R3D3MON]

I'm personally against it since it feels like nothing more than a work around the default controls of the game. Every character benefits from being able to up special without having to use their double jump, most notably Yoshi and Megaman but no one else gets such a treatment. It doesn't feel like it's a feature given to Bayo to further make her unique but because they realized partway through making her that hitting and burns a double jump and partially ruins her combo game. If they wanted her to have a second midair jump, they'd just give her a second midair jump.

You look at any other tech and it's either a result of the kind of move (teleports cancelling at ledges when most directional recoveries don't, certain dash attacks in Brawl allowing DACUS) or universal and just a part of the game (wavedashing in Melee, glide tossing, both the roll variant and the jump cancelled variant, perfect pivoting).

The closest thing to compare this to is something I've only been told by my sparring buddy and idk if it's just a theory of his or if he read it somewhere but he told me that L-cancelling in Melee was put in because the developers wanted players to be able to shield faster after landing with an aerial, which checks out well enough since L and R (the buttons that activate shield) are what cut the landing lag in half and most casual players would hold the button. And even then, that's still a largely universal tech (only largely because G&W was coded poorly).

If this second double jump thing was given to the likes of Yoshi, Sonic, Megaman, R.O.B., lol Jigglypuff then I'd have no issue with it since that'd be similar to the teleport thing and just be a particular feature of recoveries that don't induce the helpless state. The dev team already made it clear that they didn't want much tech, let alone character specific tech when they removed stuff like Peach's lagless item pulling, Toon Link's bomb throws to replace landing lag, Greninja's landing with shadow sneak, DACUS, wectoring, specials being able to slip off edges and likely more. Yet for Bayo, they outright give her a tool that makes her already ridiculous recovery even better.

And to make things clear, that's actually the smallest of my 3 wants because even if it was done, her recovery and combo game would still be amazing, just not as much with tap jump on. The start up on Witch Twist and the scaling of Witch Time outright gives her weaknesses in overall poor startup lag and losing the ability to rack up crazy damage or possibly even a stock by reading a jab with a frame 5 counter that also has invincibility frames and a unique feature (which you may notice I never said should be nerfed) that can make punishing her for it more tricky.

Maybe it's unjustified disliking towards it though since I can admit to having a negative bias towards Bayo (she's the reason I gave up the idea of even playing this game competitively)

I think limiting your mindset to what the developers wanted is seriously limiting the overall game experience and development, especially in the long term (just look at Melee).

I can understand your dislike, but you yourself stated a better alternative many people in Smash 4 never seem to suggest: just give Bayo's technique to other (lower tier) characters. It seems people's general consensus is to nerf rather than buff, which seems highly degenerative.

In regards to L-cancelling, that certainly seems feasible but I haven't looked into it too much. Any answer to that should probably come within the context of Smash 64, however.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just mention that the way that the Super Mushroom increases the damage multiplier for fighters who pick it up can really make that item feel more powerful than the transformation Final Smashes. Of course, Wario-Man and Mega Lucario are affected by size changing items, so they don't necessarily have to receive a drastic power boost when compared to Wario and Lucario respectively; Lucario can potentially deal the same amount of damage as Mega Lucario if the right circumstances are in play, but it lacks the infinite super armor.

The same cannot be said for Giga Bowser and Giga Mac, however, as they're unaffected by Super Mushrooms. In the case of Giga Bowser, if the rule is that bigger hits harder, then Giga Bowser really has to follow that trend, because it makes no sense to see a 1.7x-size Bowser deal more damage with his attacks than Giga Bowser.

As for Giga Mac, he's basically designed to deal 2x the amount of damage that Little Mac deals with his default attacks. But that's not to say that Giga Mac can't have some extra bonuses for certain attacks, such as greater BKB, greater KBG, and even unblockable hitboxes.

Anyway, Final Smashes are meant to be powerful, and even if a transformation Final Smash is overpowered as a whole, the time limit that it has pretty much restricts its overall usage. And even if you make a KO or two, fighters can simply stay on the respawn platform as long as possible to waste away the transformation timer.

 

[MinhtheMage]

Oh boy, here I go. If I could patch Smash 4 I would fix a lot of things.

I would nerf Cloud. He has too much raw strength and power and Limit Break needs a slight tweak in my opinion. His down B shouldn't charge it that fast. Secondly, I would nerf his damage. He does way too much of it.

I would buff low tier characters, with a focus on Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff is so vastly underpowered it's ridiculous. She's way to floaty and doesn't do enough to make up for it.

This was a lot shorter than I expected.

 

[TheFacelessOne]

On the topic of Cloud, since Limit Charge is such a problem, why not make a tweak to give it some lag that locks cloud into the charging animation before you are allowed to cancel it (shield, pressing down-b, etc.)?

It's mainly a fix I think would be healthier for cloud as a fighter since my biggest problem when seeing a cloud at work is how easy it is for them to get limit in the neutral. Also, it makes it so there can be more of a separation in matchups between fighting limit cloud and regular cloud since limit cloud will be more scarce, as well as forcing clouds to put more thought into when to charge limit. Makes putting pressure on cloud more rewarding as a counter to limit charge.

Personally, I think a fix also fits in with his turn-based routes since cloud would be "using his turn" to get his limit charged up. A neat little add-on would be to put in that bar that always fills up before your characters could act from the final fantasy games, just to show when he is able to act again.

It probably will nerf the cloud doubles strategy since cloud would need a character that can relieve pressure on him to get his limit charged as frequently as before, which is much harder to do when your partner is forced to hold off two characters at once just to keep cloud safe. There might be more problems to cloud to look at but for now, I think it's a good start.


I'm thinking of learning to mod smash to make balance changes and possible reworks as a student project. Only if I one day have the time and motivation though. Since this is a thread about balancing and patches I hope you don't mind if I dump these kinds of ideas here every once in a while?

 

[Lavani]

I'm feeling creative today.


Jab: -3f startup, -2f endlag, added 270° windbox
8f is horribly slow for a jab, but in Palutena's case it's more like a dtilt in terms of the combos it enables, so 5f seems adequate. The windbox preserves hitstun while effectively reducing knockback, and combined with the reduced endlag allows for jab>dash attack, jab>fsmash, and jab>usmash to all be both reliable and far less rage dependent. As an untested disclaimer, this might create jab pseudoinfinites; changing the windbox to 280° would probably fix this at the cost of making combos less reliable and/or harder to input.

Dash Attack: +5/4% early/late hits, FAF 52→46, KBG -10
For a move the character is focused on, it's awfully unsafe and unrewarding, so let's fix that. This brings its damage/kill power up to around the power of Ike's dash attack, while making it around as safe as Cloud's.

Ftilt: First two hits have their angles changed to pull opponents in. 4% hitbox removed, 6% hitbox converted from a tiny bubble to covering the entire staff.
Palutena has bad tilts as a tradeoff to her invincible attacks and versatile jab, which is a design I intend to keep. Ftilt is unbelievably bad though, so I'd at least like the long-lasting hitbox to be appropriately sized and reward her 18%.

Usmash: Bottom hitbox stretched downward 0.5 units
Quality-of-life tweak, as it's used for 2-framing but is unreliable due to the hitbox location and punishable if it whiffs.

Uair: Late autocancel 64> → 35>
Allows it to shorthop autocancel, making Palutena much better at catching landings. Incidentally, also matches uairs such as Greninja's with this change.

All aerials: +1.5% damage
Universal reward buff that particularly helps bair kill as well as you'd expect a bair to.

Autoreticle, Reflect Barrier: x1.1 FSM
Lazy change, but they're slow moves so it probably doesn't hurt anything.


Fair: Replaced with a new move where Zelda swipes her arm downward and sparkles appear in front of and below her. Think of it as something like a sideways ftilt with jab sparkles forward, down-forward, and down. Hits once. Numbers something like 6-8f active, 36f FAF, 11%, 361°, 30/80 BKB/KBG, 16f landing lag and sh autocancel.
Zelda has no way to threaten enemies in the air that aren't in the two very specific locations where she can sweetspot a lightning kick, which is worthless for zoning purposes. Giving her a proper disjointed aerial to control space fixes that handily, and having a tool to properly threaten and zone with makes the rest of her kit more cohesive. She still has bair for lightning kick shenanigans, which is the more convenient move for dthrow/nair combos anyway. Jab>fair would also be a thing at some percent range.

Din's Fire: No freefall, but can't be used multiple times per jump; larger hitbox; faster move/detonation speeds; now transcendent.
Removes SD risk, makes actually hitting with it more feasible.

Farore's Wind: Hit 2 hitbox sizes increased.
As powerful as Farore's Wind is, it's an incredibly risky move, and DI can straight-up prevent the kill confirm. Fixing that means Zeldas don't need to default to usmash for their big money OoS punish out of fear of the alternative failing and getting them killed instead.

Phantom: x1.2 charge speed, can be shield canceled.
The current version is too slow and committal. This makes it both a usable ranged attack and means Zelda doesn't commit to the decision any more than other characters with charge projectiles do.

Dtilt: BKB/KBG 20/120 → 70/40
Makes it safe on hit at low percent, and enables easier kill confirms at uair kill%

Ftilt: Arm hitbox stretched back to Zelda's torso.
Blind spot removal.


Revert all prior nerfs.
None of them made sense, nor were they necessary.

Jab: 7f jab1 startup, ?f faster jab transitions
More usable, properly links.

Dtilt: Hitbox stretched backward several units
Blindspot removal.

Usmash: Sourspot stats replaced with current sweetspot numbers; sweetspot +2%
This move's already laggy as hell, it doesn't make sense that you need to sweetspot it just for it to only be on par with Mario's usmash on hit.

Fair: +1% (on top of nerf revert), BKB/landing lag/autocancel match bair
Safe on hit at low percent, and actually usable out of a shorthop/when landing.

Uair: Increased KBG
The multihit gives the opponent years to DI, and the move's already not that strong.

Head hurtbox size reduced
Mainly intended to make his inhale actually usable; unlike Kirby or Wario, things can hit Dedede's face before he successfully eats them, most noticeable against Sonic's spindash.

 

[SJMistery]

Changes Greninja needs. Essentially bugfixes:

Revert Up Air's hit-box placement to pre-1.0.4/At least adjust knock-back and launch angle on fifth hit.
No more stupid failed kill confirms when above 120%, just because the opponent got knocked off Up-Air by the fifth hit.

Forward Smash and Forward Aerial: new sour-spot hit-box of similar KB/KBG of Forward Tilt (AKA not killing ever) along the arms of Greninja. Fair recovers 1.0.4 KBG
Blind-spot removal, to ease roll punishes and safer spacing, without removing the intended punish for not positioning yourself correctly. Plus I swear Fair won't kill some characters like Mario at the ledge at 150%. That's just stupidly high for what is supposed to be a risky, slow kill move.

Down Smash: Sour-spot weakened a little, but extended so it fully covers the ground between the two slashes. Sweetspoot hit-boxes stretched downwards by 0.4 units.
Same as above, and now correct spacing and timing gives Greninja SOMETHING to effectively punish planking tactics and two-framing on-stage.

Up Smash: Increased hit-stun on the first hit-box of the sweet-spot, so both hits reliably connect at any percent.
Self explanatory.

Down Throw now can be acted out 6 frames faster, and has a launch angle and knockback values equivalent to Down Tilt after taking into account the bounce into the ground.
You can still tech out of it with good timing, so it's not that big deal that it confirms into Up Smash and Forward Aerial a little more reliably.

Neutral Aerial hit-boxes radius increase by 0.5 units. Also reduce a LITTLE bit of the end-lag so if you use it at the same height of the ledge, you can Hydro Pump back onstage without having to have a double jump, without removing it's main drawback of being punishable if whiffed.
The range is just too tiny for such a big end-lag. Plus, Self Destructing for a random laggy buffed Nair online just sucks.

Slightly increased shield stun on Shadow Sneak and Substitute, and shield damage increased to around the same of fully charged F-Smash.
That way those moves are just a little bit safer as the opponent will be in shield-stun long enough to prevent a guaranteed hard punish. They can still get a punish, mostly by grabbing, but it won't be as brutal as now.

Super-armor added to Shadow Sneak and Substitute in the frames where Greninja disappears, and the frames where he reappears until 4 frames after the hit-boxes come in for Shadow Sneak and 10 frames after the hit-boxes activate for Substitute.
Getting hit out of the move when you have already disappeared is just terrible, but intangibility would make those moves just too good.

Those two changes combined make Side-B much better for recovery and edge guarding applications as it can now absorb some projectiles, and makes it a much better option to be used as anti-approach due to now being more safe on shield. The armor can be bypassed by grabs so if you are a master of timing, you STILL can interrupt it, but it's now much harder to do. The armor also comes in handy to escape of multi-hit moves with Shadow Sneak.
It also makes Substitute worthy of going for as it can now properly protect Greninja from multi-hit moves and won't result in you getting hit out of it 99% of the time, without making it too good. You can still grab him out of it and it won't break shields unless you already got it heavily damaged before, so it won't be able to easily kill you off of jabs like Witch Time does. Also improves recovery potential, something that is needed a little, as Hydro Pump is very vulnerable to spikes.



Dumb things that can be ignored but would be cool anyway:


Shadow Sneak does 5% extra damage and 10% extra knockback if you interrupt a taunt with it at EXACTLY the frame of the down taunt where the fountain hitboxes appear.
Cmon, you know you love doing this s***.

Substitute Log and Doll now act as a much weaker and slightly slower version of the Football item after spawned.
Just to give Greninja something else to troll people with.



New Final Smash: Ash-Greninja (transformation):
All Smash attacks sweetspots deal 30% extra knockback, and all sourspot hitboxes on Forward Smash and Down Smash become equivalent to the sweetspot hitboxes.
D-tilt now deals fixed knocback that always leads to running Up-Smash.
Back Throw and Forward Throw deal increased knockback and double damage.
Makes Water Shuriken come out fully charged immediately with around twice it's usual speed and 20% extra knockback on the last hit.
Shadow Sneak and Substitute now break shields in one hit, and deal enough knockback to reliably KO at 60% without rage with the back kick and upwards kick respectively.
Hydro Pump pushback doubled, and intangibility until the end.
This one is a must, but let's face it. No one uses any item, not even the Smash Ball, anymore.

New Custom Moves:

Side-B 1: Mat Block. Reflector with a double initial hitbox that knocks the oponent away. Can be held inefinitely but only covers from the front and the hitbox only stays active until the mat gets pulled up. Hitbox timings equivalent to Greninja's current opening final smash hitboxes. On Ash-Greninja it can be jumped out of at frame 6.
Essentially a lovechild between Fox and Palutena's reflectors. Takes away a recovery and mindgame tool for a defensive tool.

Side-B 2: Night Slash. Greninja dashes forward and slashes the opponents. Mechanically similar to Ike's Side-B, helplessness and ledge-sweetspot included, but cannot be charged and instead goes a fixed distance equivalent to Shadow Sneak's maximum range. On Ash-Greninja it does not cause helplessness and deals twice as much knockback.
Self explanatory. Faster than Shadow Sneak but more risky.

Up-B 1: Gunk Shot. A piece of trash appears below Greninja, who he uses as trampoline. Around the same height of Greninja's actual double jump, and like Hydro Pump, it automatically burns it up if it was not used. The piece of trash will spike people on the way down for the first 10 frames. On Ash-Greninja, it can be acted out of, does not consume the jump, CAN'T be used twice before landing, and the piece of trash spikes all the way down.
This was totally random but hey, Greninja can learn it so...

Up-B 2: Acrobatics. Greninja rockets upward with multiple hits and super-armor. Does halved damage and grants less distance if you are holding an item like a Beam Sword or a Turnip. Ash-Greninja's last hit deals equivalent knockback to Dark Fist's clean hit.
Not much to say, I am running out of ideas there, sorry.

Down-B 1: The current Explosion Attack, except you can hold it longer for a stronger explosion if you want, and it will be automatically released when fully charged. Now causes helplessness and has much more endlag, to prevent easy stalling with the dissapearence. On Ash-Greninja, it can be charged up twice as fast, and can be released instantly after dissapearing. Fully charged on Ash-Greninja is an OHKO, and even at mid charge it hits like a Bob-Omb.
The same he has, it's cool in my book so we will leave this one there, just better. A good ninja should always have a surprise move involving explosions like that.

Down-B 2: Spikes. Can only be used on the ground. Spawns a trap that will shoot people upwards when stepped on with similar knockback to the Down Taunt, allowing follow-ups at practically any percent and cool ledge traps. Up to 3 can be deployed at the same time. On Ash-Greninja, they deal poison damage over time and have extra hitstun.
Yet another move that was just too iconic of ninjas to pass up.

 

[Roshi]

[WIP]
timestamps
posted: 11/16/2017
edited: 11/17/2017
edited: 12/2/2017

Yo, so i was literally talking to a friend about this and i got on smashboards to look at the tier list, and the first thing i see is this so this is perfect. I don't play smash 4 but it makes me angry that nintendo and other game companies don't try their best to balance their fighting games as much as possible. So the TL;DR about what I'm gonna say is just buff every D tier and below and buff them enough to be an A-C tier or even S tiers. I don't believe in nerfing too much because it ruins some characters but i love the idea of buffing weaker characters to make them better and let them catch up and just letting every character have a chance.


so let's start with the lowest of the low

-I would start with her by improving her throws like up and downthrow, the opponent lands way too far for a follow up rest which is something puff should have.
-she needs an extended grab hitbox
- her rest needs to kill earlier (way earlier)
- her sing needs to have much less lag and cause the opponent way more lag
- buff all aerials
- she needs to have more survivability
I think that's good for now

- make it easier to hit her fairs and bairs with
- make her side b have WAY less lag

- faster
- a bit more powerful
- a new uptilt (maybe like an upper cut like in sd remix)

- confirm kill throw
- less lag on forward smash and pretty much all his moves
- make him faster
- make projectile not as easily returnable

- faster movement
- more powerful projectile
- make it so the projectile is like falco's lazer in melee (more lag on opponenet)
- stronger fair with a sweetspot that hits down and a sour spot that hits forward (but both good)

- give him his old shine
- make lazers auto-cancel-able and make them have more lag
- make dair a lot stronger
- lengthen up special

- stronger smash attacks / earlier kill-ability
- less lag on smash attacks
-

 

[Eekum_bokum]

- Bayo's witch time should last at different lengths dependent on the move she gets hit with. So for example if she gets hit with a weak jab, it doesn't last long. But if she gets hit with a Bowser fsmash then it lasts a while.

- Cloud's limit cross slash should have more end lag. Even when you bait it out, you can't do much to punish it.

 

[DatKirby15]

Head hurtbox size reduced
Mainly intended to make his inhale actually usable; unlike Kirby or Wario, things can hit Dedede's face before he successfully eats them, most noticeable against Sonic's spindash.

While I think your change is reasonable, it’s certainly still possible to get hit during an inhale as Kirby (happens to me a little too often). I believe the real problem stems from the fact that most of inhale is a windbox, with a just-a-little-too-small grabbox near the mouth. A change I would add to yours is making more of inhale a grabbox with a small windbox at max range, increasing the range people need to hit us through the inhale and making a disjoint more necessary for that as well. I wouldn’t like to remove the windbox entirely though, because they are vacuums and it seems fitting that some of it is a windbox. This does apply to Kirby as well (just the grabbox, not the hurtbox), but Wario’s chomp is pretty large as-is and probably doesn’t need this change.

 

[Ad3n]

Oh God no. What have you done? (the useful neutral and up special is good, but the rest of it DEAR GOD WHY!?)

You just made puff better than cloud, and more cancerous than sonic.

She still doesn’t have much range... The throws can be Di’d

 

[DCellZ]

My changes:
Make every character A-tier. No more 60-40's every matchup is even and balanced.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

My changes:
Make every character A-tier. No more 60-40's every matchup is even and balanced.

Not possible, there will be difficult MUs no matter what you do, or you’ll make them similar.

 

[DJBor]

A long time ago I used to be working on a patch. Maybe I should try it again and post it here. More to come on that.
For now, here's some information I labbed out that could help here. It's the data for character placements in Top 16s from 25 B-tier and up tournaments from the PGR, and the trend data for each character.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GJFNlaMbwL2QYOTQ2zU5m7u4Q9ommTFmbZTZ0faE-dM