I REALLY don't understand...

[BSP]

Link to original post: [drupal=2420]I REALLY don't understand...[/drupal]



...why people say TR4Q and tiers don't exist. Do people actually listen to themselves when they say this? I mean come on, by saying that, it's like you believe that the game(brawl in this case)is perfectly balenced and that every character has an equal amount of potential...i dont know how ANYONE could think this.

What really pisses me off is when ignorant people slam tiers and dont have the slightest idea of what they mean. Seriously, most of the people who say TR4Q say it because their character is low, or they believe that the list is claiming that they can't beat MK with any low tiers. If people actually took the time to educate themselves, they would actually be aware of what a tier list really is. In addition to this, the people that slam the lists aren't even competitive players, and don't realise that the list is aimed to predict competitive play, not what you do in a casual game with your friend.

I used to be one of the TR4Q'ers, but then I actually learned what the list means, and I realised that it makes no sense(at least IMO) to say that the tiers don't exist. I agree with the anti-tiers that the list shouldn't influence who you play, but I don't think it does this to a major extent, cause if it did, the list would be the S tier and then everyone else.

*wipes sweat* Well, that was just me ranting on the ignorance of some players. I know most of them are casuals, but seriously, learn about something before you actually make an opinion on it.

 

[Maniclysane]

The tier list reflects the way we play Smash.

Casuals don't play smash like we do.

Therefore, the tier list doesn't reflect how they play. It makes no difference to them, so they ignore it and say its useless, which it is to them.

 

[ndayday]

...why people say TR4Q and tiers don't exist. Do people actually listen to themselves when they say this? I mean come on, by saying that, it's like you believe that the game(brawl in this case)is perfectly balenced and that every character has an equal amount of potential...i dont know how ANYONE could think this.

"Some smashers, called "anti-tiers," argue that every character can be played equally well. In support of this argument, they claim the tier list creates a cycle in which players choose only higher-tiered characters, and thus only those characters develop an advanced metagame, thereby reinforcing the tier list."

-Taken from the Wiki

What really pisses me off is when ignorant people slam tiers and dont have the slightest idea of what they mean. Seriously, most of the people who say TR4Q say it because their character is low, or they believe that the list is claiming that they can't beat MK with any low tiers. If people actually took the time to educate themselves, they would actually be aware of what a tier list really is. In addition to this, the people that slam the lists aren't even competitive players, and don't realise that the list is aimed to predict competitive play, not what you do in a casual game with your friend.

Yeah, I agree with that for the most part. I personally (like most) believe in tiers, but I really don't care if someone thinks otherwise. That is, unless they are 'scrubs' that just say that because they don't know any better. I mean, in theory, there could be a really good player that doesn't believe in tiers so I'm not going to bash them. I guess. >_>

*wipes sweat* Well, that was just me ranting on the ignorance of some players. I know most of them are casuals, but seriously, learn about something before you actually make an opinion on it.

People that aren't educated about the other side's opinions are annoying to argue with, so you really shouldn't pay much attention to them. We all were casuals at one point too, and I guess some people are just more...defensive of their opinions on tiers.

Edit; what Maniclysane said too

 

[SuSa]

This sentence won this thread:

People that aren't educated about the other side's opinions are annoying to argue with, so you really shouldn't pay much attention to them.

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

People need time to realize tiers. I used to hate the tier list until I actually played people who were good at smash. It's like an epiphany.

 

[Maniclysane]

People need time to realize tiers. I used to hate the tier list until I actually played people who were good at smash. It's like an epiphany.

Why would you care about the tier list if it doesn't affect you?
Our tier list is based on a select group of maps, no items, 3 stock with an 8 minute timer.

When I played casually, I played 5 stock on any map, without a timer, items, etc. The tier list would certainly change if we played like that, so that means our tier list has no bearing on them.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Tier list is simple. Why don't people get it?

Spoiler

Denial.

 

[BSP]

@ nakedDedede (i always mess uup the quote thing, so ill just stick to this.) I saw that on the wiki too, the "they claim the tier list creates a cycle in which players choose only higher-tiered characters, and thus only those characters develop an advanced metagame, thereby reinforcing the tier list. (from smashwiki)" I personally dont really find any truth to that statement because, like i said in the OP, if the tier list reinforced itself that much, the list would be the S tier then everyone else( and every character wouldnt have their own board, which i think helpes prove the fact the list doesnt influence character choice too much).

 

[cutter]

Some people don't like it when they see the tier list and they go, "ZOMG LINK (or character X) AT THE BOTTOM??? BUT I PWN MAI FRIENDS WITH MAI LINK!!! THAT MUST MEAN HE'S AS GOOD AS EVERYONE ELSE!!!"

Sorry if I have to resort to generalizations, but I have actually seen this happen in person. There are people out there who love playing who they main so much that it rattles them to see others think that character is actually really bad in reality.

 

[BSP]

ok, if any anti tiers are reading this, I have a question: If you think that tiers do not exist, are you saying each character has equal potential?

 

[ndayday]

ok, if any anti tiers are reading this, I have a question: If you think that tiers do not exist, are you saying each character has equal potential?

Note that I'm not an anti-tier, but if I were one, this is what I would say.

Every character has equal potential, and the tier list you guys make is telling players to choose higher tier characters, thereby not giving the lower tiers a chance to develop. Basically, you don't know how to use low tiers to their full potential because you're too busy playing MK to his full potential.

Once again, that is not at all my belief. >_>

BTW if you ever get in an argument with one of those silly people, use this as a guideline to your argument; http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers

 

[BSP]

I lol'd at the arguements in opposition

That article does explain it, thanks.

 

[thydipptimon]

Hi Everyone..

I am newbie on this site and It's pleasure to be a part of your forum. I love to try also what you are discussing here. Thanks!

 

[gOld7]

I follow Tiers. (This is in complete generalization) But if you see that you main is low tier; don't freak out and decide that you don't wanna play him/her and find a better tier char. Play who your good with and even if you DON'T beat someone higher on the tier, depending on your skill level anyone-- ANYONE can beat anyone.... Ya win some, Ya lose some.

Um... I hope I making myself clear while making a good point... O.O '

 

[mountain_tiger]

Most of the people that deny tiers do it to provoke a reaction. Few of them genuinely believe that tiers don't exist.

 

[CRASHiC]

@ nakedDedede (i always mess uup the quote thing, so ill just stick to this.) I saw that on the wiki too, the "they claim the tier list creates a cycle in which players choose only higher-tiered characters, and thus only those characters develop an advanced metagame, thereby reinforcing the tier list. (from smashwiki)" I personally dont really find any truth to that statement because, like i said in the OP, if the tier list reinforced itself that much, the list would be the S tier then everyone else( and every character wouldnt have their own board, which i think helpes prove the fact the list doesnt influence character choice too much).

Then why is puff suddenly beating out top players?
And don't say, oh that's just Mango, because guess what, Hungrybox is doing it too.

 

[:mad:]

Most of the people that deny tiers do it to provoke a reaction. Few of them genuinely believe that tiers don't exist.

Why do you say this? Have you asked these people, or is this just an educated guess that probably isn't true?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Someone was visiting GameFaQs.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Who cares what they think? They're idiots for the most part.

There is, in my mind, no convincing argument that could persuade me to believe that "tiers do not exist." The obviously exist.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Casual and competitive Smash contain two completely different criterias. This is just another pointless thread, except it's not written by YesNoMaybeSo...

 

[Maniclysane]

Why do you say this? Have you asked these people, or is this just an educated guess that probably isn't true?

Sounds like an uneducated guess to me, lololol.

Btw; I don't believe in our tiers. I have no faith in the people putting them together either. Tiers in Smash are really just an over exaggerated theory craft list.

 

[BSP]

Then why is puff suddenly beating out top players?
And don't say, oh that's just Mango, because guess what, Hungrybox is doing it too.

I'm not exactly the most knowledgable when it comes to the famous smashers(not gonna worry about it until I can actually go to offline tourneys). Can you explain this to me a little more?

@GunmasterLombardi

I wan't really trying to go anywhere with this, I was just ranting as I said(it helps though). That's not illegal or anything is it? (unless it's spam, of course, which im not doing)

@ melomaniacal

if you're refering to me, then no i wasnt.

Also, I'd like to agree with what Solid said. I can't see any possible way that tiers could not exist in brawl. I could see where the 'tiers reinforce themselves' arguement comes from(which i still think isnt true to enough of an extent to cause a major problem), but I can't see how one could think, even when every character is at their full potential, that the game soesnt have tiers. Things like having projectiles, swords/using weapons, kill power, recovery...it goes on and on, too many differences to not have any tiers.

And more importantly, why is my title a smash ace? wait, i saw the thing in announcements. But...I really don't feel like an ace at smash lol

 

[Insetick]

People that aren't educated about the other side's opinions are annoying to argue with, so you really shouldn't pay much attention to them.

Ignoring people won't solve any problem. If you wish people were more knowledgeable, you have to educate them.

I think SWF has plenty of threads that do a good job of explaining that tiers are made objectively and thus can't be argued against. For the immutable idiot, however, we just have to keep trying.

 

[ndayday]

If you tried to teach an immutable idiot something, he would remain immutable if he was truly immutable to begin with, no?
That would render your teaching methods useless.

The first part I agree with though. If you try arguing it into people though, that's not so good.

 

[Insetick]

If you tried to teach an immutable idiot something, he would remain immutable if he was truly immutable to begin with, no?
That would render your teaching methods useless.

The first part I agree with though. If you try arguing it into people though, that's not so good.

What teaching methods? whatever. you're just playing with my words.

They are ostensibly immutable. No one cannot be persuaded to change his mind. I trust people to understand that objective facts cannot be debated.
Most of the T4Q people are ignorant and don't know anything. They just heard the "T4Q" slogan and applied their own subjective opinion to it. As with any subjective opinion, facts win out in time.

 

[ndayday]

First off, calm down a bit. By "teaching methods" I was referring to this portion of your post;

For the immutable idiot, however, we just have to keep trying.

I assumed that by "trying" you meant trying to teach, trying to educate, etc, as seen in the first part of that respective post. Apparently I was wrong however, in which case you should clarify what you meant or tell me where I am wrong in my assumption.

They are ostensibly immutable. No one cannot be persuaded to change his mind. I trust people to understand that objective facts cannot be debated.
Most of the T4Q people are ignorant and don't know anything. They just heard the "T4Q" slogan and applied their own subjective opinion to it. As with any subjective opinion, facts win out in time.

Agreed.

 

[Insetick]

I thought you were making a big deal out of nothing (something my little brother does that annoys me). Sorry about that and sounding angry. It's just how I speak.

 

[GwJ]

Hi Everyone..

I am newbie on this site and It's pleasure to be a part of your forum. I love to try also what you are discussing here. Thanks!

Excuse me, what?

 

[Alus]

Hi Everyone..



I am newbie on this site and It's pleasure to be a part of your forum. I love to try also what you are discussing here. Thanks!

Hahahahahahaha!

I'm not trying to be mean, but this post made my day!

 

[mountain_tiger]

Why do you say this? Have you asked these people, or is this just an educated guess that probably isn't true?

Go the Brawl boards on GameFAQs. It's always, 'Lolz MK isn't overpowered I beat my six-year-old sister with Captain Falcon, thus tires don exits'.

Seeing as how you see topics like that every single day, it's pretty safe to say that most of the time they're just baiting people.

 

[cutter]

I don't even visit GameFAQs boards anyways. It's a hellhole, run by completely incompetent mods. Ever since CJayC sold the site, GameFAQs has gone down the drain.

 

[Kantō]

there needs to be teirs in competitive play. characters need advantages against other characters and characters need counterpicks stages. if all of this was completley balanced, this game would be trash.

 

['V']

I don't think so (in a competitive sense at least). If it was completely balanced for competitive play, I'd be playing it that way more instead of hating it altogether.

I love the game exactly as it is for a party game sense though.

 

[Rain(ame)]

People just like to argue....pretty much. It's something they have to get under the skin of people that take gaming to the next level. When it's casual...people tend to follow a tier list...whether they want to or not. Mainly because they have their opinions of who the best and worst characters in the game are. Most people that bash on tiers are fully aware of how bad their characters are.

Here's the point:

People HATE being TOLD their character sucks. Even if they, themselves are aware of it.

Sadly...it's the truth. It's like sports fans that can't own up to the fact that their team just isn't cutting it. They know it, but they hate to be told it. They also think that we don't know "If you put enough work into it...(insert generic "tier hater" phrase here)" Ignorance.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I'm a lions fan. I'm okay if I'm told my team sucks

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I believe that tiers exist now, I just don't believe in their overall function. Tiers list to me just in my eyes seems to be a thing where you put the most likely to win at the top and the underdogs at the bottom.

Thats just me though.

I came close to 3 stocking a Tourney-Savvy D3 with Bowser on FD, at GiGaBrawl, for example. We ere nearly evenly matched. It also kinda has to do with how I play Bowser as I don't play like the typical ones that spam F-Smash.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I believe that tiers exist now, I just don't believe in their overall function. Tiers list to me just in my eyes seems to be a thing where you put the most likely to win at the top and the underdogs at the bottom.

Thats just me though.

I came close to 3 stocking a Tourney-Savvy D3 with Bowser on FD, at GiGaBrawl, for example. We ere nearly evenly matched. It also kinda has to do with how I play Bowser as I don't play like the typical ones that spam F-Smash.

They don't really have a function. It's not like the tier list somehow changes the gameplay.

And I'm "tourney-savvy," but I'm terrible.
...wait, have you ever seen what a good Bowser looks like?

 

[Rain(ame)]

I'm a lions fan. I'm okay if I'm told my team sucks

Lions suck.


lol, j/k. Have I ever told you how much I <3 your avatar? She was like one of my favorite characters in School Days.

I believe that tiers exist now, I just don't believe in their overall function. Tiers list to me just in my eyes seems to be a thing where you put the most likely to win at the top and the underdogs at the bottom.

Thats just me though.

Pretty freakin' much. However...in certain games...I doubt you're going to win a tournament, at least without a little help. I know that in BlazBlue, Tager can beat V-13...he just has to wrok REALLY friggin' hard at it, xD. That's a game where the tier list is in function, but it's far from impossible for a bottom tier character, (Tager) to win a tournament.

Some games are like that...where some games aren't. It depends, really.

Edit: I'm also in agreeance with the post before me.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

If your definition of a Good Bowser is one whom abuses the hell out of Klaw Hopping in with his normal fighting-style or something of the like. I'm not buying that dinner. >__>

Other than that, no, I don't know what a good Bowser is. I play my own way to try to win.

 

[Melomaniacal]

If your definition of a Good Bowser is one whom abuses the hell out of Klaw Hopping in with his normal fighting-style or something of the like. I'm not buying that dinner. >__>

Other than that, no, I don't know what a good Bowser is. I play my own way to try to win.

Just saying... if I ever see a Bowser who finds success on a tournament level by spamming f-smash, I'm quitting Brawl.
Typical good Bowsers don't spam f-smash. Actually, no good Bowsers spam f-smash.