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I have a huge problem with the current stage ruleset.

BSeeD

Smash Journeyman
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@Sox : Made total sense to me :p That's what I've been saying for more than 5 years so yeah :)

@Cactuar : And for you, the composition of the stage does not have any influence on your opponent's movements/tools ?

Guess I'll never have my answer about the "balance" rule...
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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Forced interactions are not a good thing, I don't recommend building an argument around it...
That is a very ominous non-response.

I would hardly call even long matches on DL non-interactive in the slightest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak
That only proves my point though. I never implied that players struggle to interact on neutrals. I was only pointing out that we should not merely settle on those neutrals because they do.
 

Laijin

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I'm going to bring this up because the limited stage select also bought up another problem. Currently there is a rule that in Best of 5 matches, bans are not allowed because there are not enough stages available to avoid playing the same stage twice. Honestly, this is pretty dumb rule IMO and limits a lot of characters. If I don't want to play Final Destination as Young Link vs Fox because its very disadvantageous for Young Link compared to other levels , I shouldn't have to during an entire set. But as it stands now I will end up doing so at least once. This could easily be remedied if we didn't just played the game on "neutral" stages.
 

ElloEddy

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I'm going to bring this up because the limited stage select also bought up another problem. Currently there is a rule that in Best of 5 matches, bans are not allowed because there are not enough stages available to avoid playing the same stage twice. Honestly, this is pretty dumb rule IMO and limits a lot of characters. If I don't want to play Final Destination as Young Link vs Fox, I shouldn't have to during an entire set. But as it stands now I will end up doing so at least once. This could easily be remedied if we didn't just played the game on "neutral" stages.
i agree..i say bring at least two stages back as counters not rainbow cause to campy for some ....not brinstar cause the lava ...... kj64 is fine and corneria making its return?
 

DoH

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The stages are fair enough that you should be able to play on them; one stage is not going to make or break the set. Just because your character sucks on FD doesn't me that you shouldn't have to play there. None of your points have warrants laijin.
 

Laijin

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The stages are fair enough that you should be able to play on them; one stage is not going to make or break the set. Just because your character sucks on FD doesn't me that you shouldn't have to play there. None of your points have warrants laijin.
I disagree. One game could make/break the set if its the game you need to win. I've never in the last like 8 or 9 years of playing smash competitively have had the problem of being forced to play on a stage I absolutely didn't want to during a set. So why is it a problem now all of a sudden? If I don't want to play on FD against a Fox main, I shouldn't have to. There are other levels in the game.
 

DoH

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Why shouldn't you have to? You're not articulating a valid reason other than "I don't like it" which isn't good criteria for rule making. One stage does not determine a set in bo5; there are at least two others that you have to lose on to lose the set.
 

Nintendude

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Don't forget that if you are being counterpicked to your worst stage, you presumably won game 1 and thus have CP advantage for the set, unless of course you later on lose on your CP and get taken to your worst stage twice (something that really has to be addressed imo).
 

Laijin

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Why shouldn't you have to? You're not articulating a valid reason other than "I don't like it" which isn't good criteria for rule making. One stage does not determine a set in bo5; there are at least two others that you have to lose on to lose the set.
Whether you agree with it or not, I don't think some characters are viable on some stages. Its in my opinion that Young Link does very poorly against majority of the high tiers on Final Destination, but does just fine against them everywhere else(because of platforms). One match in the bo5 doesn't entirely decide the entire set, no, but it does contribute a huge part of it and it does matter.
 

Jockmaster

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Cause let's face it, that's what happened, giving top tier more advantages and low tier less chances.
You do realize that Fox ***** everything that moves on most of the banned stages, right? A lot of stages are banned because of flat vertical walls give him an infinite and are just stupid in general.

I was gonna make this thread after watching APEX 2013. Laijin beat me to it. I was wondering what happened to all the good stages.



Then restrict it to one character too. Why stop at stages? If we "really" wanna see who the "best" is, we need to have Fox only on Final Destination.

People are presenting strong logical arguments; you are simply electing to ignore them. It looks like all the haters ended up being right about Melee. I used to proudly proclaim to those haters that it was easy to strike Final Destination (which I often did) and that I fought there in a tiny minority of tournament matches. It looks like we're gravitating back toward the mindless grind of who can use space animals the best.

As has been mentioned already, stage variety is good just as character variety is good. It is an extra layer of complexity that adds beauty to the competitive element in this game. Stop comparing smash to other fighting games. If you like other fighting games so much, go play other fighting games. Personally, I am here because Melee is so different. The freedom to move about the stage is fantastic and makes for epic competition.
Ok I knew someone would bring up "just use one character"

When stages were initially banned, we opened a sort of Pandora's box at that point. What we as a community said was "this game is not competitive in its inherent form and we as a community must now decide what is best for the game". This is perfectly reasonable, because Melee with every stage is stupid. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with this.

The problem is, by admitting that even ONE stage is too jank to play competitively, we are admitting that there is a stage that is the LEAST jank. That's simple logic. And the jankness of a stage is a real thing that really affects how much it facilitates desired competition (unlike characters, but I will elaborate on that after this). So, simply by admitting that any stage is too jank to play on, all of a sudden we have opened ourselves to the reality that there is a least jank stage. Now as a competitive community that is trying to take itself seriously, how can we NOT strive to get to the point where we know that one stage? I see our current stagelist as simply the finalists in the community's view of the "best stage", and that the decision for the actual best one is simply impossible to come upon. And I think that, besides PS, we HAVE reached the point where we have gotten down to the most purely balanced and competitive stages in the game. There is no NEED for the stages banned other than the sake of variety now that we, as a community, have admitted that stages are more or less jank than one another.

When it comes to characters, we have never banned one nor has the community ever felt the need to. At no point have we seen character variety as in opposition to desired competition, whereas we HAVE seen stage variety as such. There is no reason to limit it to one character; nobody has ever thought such.

And this is no personal attack, but nobody cares about what you think is "beautiful" and "epic". If you want those things, go play Okami or Shadow of the Colossus or whatever. This is a competitive game that very often has decent amounts of money on the line; while it is being played for fun, the fact still stands that it is illogical to add stages to the stagelist that have been logically banned before.

And how are we gravitating towards who can use spacies the best? I'm pretty sure only like three spacies users made top 8 at Apex (one of which was Mango, who ***** with every character, and the other was PP who didn't even use Falco in GFs). If anything people are gravitating AWAY from spacies because now everyone is learning how to **** them.
 

DoH

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Whether you agree with it or not, I don't think some characters are viable on some stages. Its in my opinion that Young Link does very poorly against majority of the high tiers on Final Destination, but does just fine against them everywhere else(because of platforms). One match in the bo5 doesn't entirely decide the entire set, no, but it does contribute a huge part of it and it does matter.
Why should the ruleset be catered to your character's limitations?
 

Cactuar

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The issue with this topic is that all of you are only addressing pieces of it at a time.

1) The issue of set balance.
Allowing stages that provide significant advantage for one player directly increases the importance of the first match of a set. This brings up the topic of individual match weighting. The majority of sets are played best of three. Given that the first set will be played on a stage that is struck to, we assume that the stage chosen for R1 is 50:50 (even if the matchup is a 70:30 matchup, this is still considered the 50:50 stage). R2, if the player who lost is able to take the opponent to a stage that changes it from a 50:50 to a 80:20 in his favor, the winner of R1 should be able to do the same in reverse for R3. With a neutrals only stagelist, our goal is to make the importance of each match win closer to even. Unfortunately, given the number of matchups that exist in the game, and even reducing that to the matchups only between viable characters, we get to the problem of "if we allow Mute City and Brinstar, we are effectively rebalancing the tier list because the advantage Peach and Puff gain allow them to have an 80:20 on their counterpick, while every other character does not have a stage that provides such a matchup swing". If sets on the average had more matches, combined with the "you may not use any stage that you previously won on" rule, the sets would be less affected on the whole because the matchup swing of any one match. This was all explained in the thread that addressed the individual importance of timer, stock count, and number of matches per set.

2) The "what skills are important in melee" problem.
This question is hard to provide a solid answer to, as there are heavily conflicting opinions between different groups of players. I am of the party that appreciates the fighting game elements of the game over the platformer elements. This isn't to say that I don't like the platformer elements, but simply that I prioritize the former over the latter. Others weight them equally, some weigh the ability to move on the stages over the ability to interact with the opponent. It's w/e. When it comes down to it, because this is a matter of player preference, the majority rules. This is the topic you need to have a group to represent, and if you want change, you'll need to provide evidence through action, which is by hosting tournaments, and having players outside of your group experience and appreciate the difference, enough that the idea spreads and is more commonly used.

This brings up
3) The problem of majority rule.
Does the value of the opinion of a high to top level player carry more weight than the opinion of a beginner.

4) The problem of competitive standard
Does the fact that a more expansive stage list was used in years long past prove that those stages are fair or competitively viable?

This could go on for a while. To me, the biggest thing any of you could do, again, is to gain the support of some high to top level players, and have them back the idea. Once they back the idea, you get TO awareness, and once you have TO awareness, your proposals get tried out. We could argue endlessly about "reasons", but until they are tried out, until people play it and decide for themselves if they like it or not, nothing is accomplished.


I was just throwing words into a document, I don't feel like cleaning it up and I think others are addressing the points better than me anyway. Gotta get back to work. GET SUPPORT, STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING.
 

DoH

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Then host tournaments with alternate rulesets, don't come back after two years and tell us we all suck and are ****ies and everyone should change to something you prefer.
 

Jockmaster

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I was just throwing words into a document, I don't feel like cleaning it up and I think others are addressing the points better than me anyway. Gotta get back to work. GET SUPPORT, STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ARGUING.
**** you Cactuar debate is healthy bruh
 

Sox

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i think this does need to be discussed openly because of how the current rule-sets are made and accepted by those in the back room. this allows everyone to post their thoughts and possibly show a TO that alternative rule-sets might provide a better (or at least different) tournament experience
 

Cactuar

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Sorry, I really mean to imply that, in addition to talking about it, you should get people whose opinions have heavy weight to join in on the conversation here, not to stop all discussion.
 

Laijin

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Then host tournaments with alternate rulesets, don't come back after two years and tell us we all suck and are ****ies and everyone should change to something you prefer.
Not sure how you misunderstood my original intention, but I love this game and community as much as you do. Just cause I have not been active in a year doesn't really hold too much weight considering the meta game has barely phased since then. I prefer community tournaments like EVO to be played with the integrity of competitive melee as we have been playing it for so long left intact, not what a small handful of players consider to be tournament worthy even though a very large amount of the community disagrees.

Edit: This thread mostly stemmed with my main concern being how the ruleset will be affected at EVO and for future nationals.
 

LLDL

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Counter-picking was a part of the game that wasn't a part of the fight. It closes the gaps between the tiers in some cases. All 3 of those stages are fine. Let's not forget why you get bans. It's actually shocking how many times I've been told by the opponent that they don't care to ban anything in a set.
That's a good thing.

And don't worry Laijin, I keep Corneria legal at my tournaments

:awesome:
 

Jockmaster

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That's a good thing.

And don't worry Laijin, I keep Corneria legal at my tournaments

:awesome:
Why is it a good thing to use what is arguably the fault of multiple stages to arbitrarily balance the cast?

If it really is for the sake of MUH VARIETY I wish people would just openly say so like Vudujin. That's understandable. I wish everyone would stop acting like counterpicking and stage variety has any sort of competitive value besides using a ruleset to give your character an unfair advantage by using a stage that plays to his strengths
 

Nintendude

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There is competitive value to counterpicking. Knowing how to play on a variety of stages and adapting to an opponent's use of the stage is part of knowing your matchups.
 

outofphase

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FD/BF only sounds like a way to make Marth top tiers again.

FD doesn't alter the way the matchups are played. They give legimate and easy to perform zero to death options to characters like Peach and Marth on spacies. Boiling it down to 'platforms' and 'no platforms' is not the way to go.

PS would be a great stage if not for the transformations.
how does fd not alter the way you should play a matchup? every stage slightly alters how you play different matchups based on blast zones, plat heights (or no plats), stage size, wall below stage or not, and transformations/obstacles. when it comes to your 02d argument, that is simply not true. even m2k usually doesnt get 02ds on good spacies. plus spacies dont exactly struggle on fd like people want to believe. theyre just relatively less good. you have to recognize the difference in risk/reward and play accordingly. im not boiling it down to platforms and no platforms, its a matter of jank vs. no jank.

on another note i think there should be no bans and get rid of ps as an alternative. i honestly dont know why foxes ever confront other chars during the non-tranformed segments.
 

Jockmaster

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There is competitive value to counterpicking. Knowing how to play on a variety of stages and adapting to an opponent's use of the stage is part of knowing your matchups.
But is this competitive value derived simply from the fact that we have multiple stages, or is it something that has inherent value?


(For the record I'm really just trying to pry in to peoples' mindsets about stages and their value to the game, I'm not just being a douche)
 

Grinin

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Almost everyone I know tends towards the attitude of "more neutral and less jank" when it comes to the stagelist.

:phone:
 

LLDL

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Why is it a good thing to use what is arguably the fault of multiple stages to arbitrarily balance the cast?

If it really is for the sake of MUH VARIETY I wish people would just openly say so like Vudujin. That's understandable. I wish everyone would stop acting like counterpicking and stage variety has any sort of competitive value besides using a ruleset to give your character an unfair advantage by using a stage that plays to his strengths
The only thing I'm talking about is that when people don't care to ban a stage, it's a good thing. Sitting there and stressing about what stage you can and can't win on is lame to me. Just random it up and play the game.
 

Sox

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Why is it a good thing to use what is arguably the fault of multiple stages to arbitrarily balance the cast?

If it really is for the sake of MUH VARIETY I wish people would just openly say so like Vudujin. That's understandable. I wish everyone would stop acting like counterpicking and stage variety has any sort of competitive value besides using a ruleset to give your character an unfair advantage by using a stage that plays to his strengths
as opposed to playing with a ruleset that strongly leaves your characters with fewer ways of playing to its strengths? ill explain my thoughts in more detail if interested

^^
then y not random the char selection too?
 

Jockmaster

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as opposed to playing with a ruleset that strongly leaves your characters with fewer ways of playing to its strengths? ill explain my thoughts in more detail if interested
Why do we have to give characters beneficial stages in an attempt to balance them? I would like for you to elaborate.

This epitomizes the sort of sophistry presented by those in favor of this stage list. I have no problem when Cactuar makes an argument about how the stage list merely reflects public opinion, or anything regarding preference (no matter how arbitrary those preferences are), except to note that it seems a little unfair to make a ruleset that limits a player's options just because "most people" want it. But that's not the usual argument made against those of us who disagree; no, it's nonsensical tirades about "player vs. player interaction" and "character balance."
Ok so strawman aside what are you trying to say? Some of these "smashier than thou" comments come off as kind of arbitrary because they rarely add any context to the discussion besides "no you r wrong nub"
 

ycz12

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And this is no personal attack, but nobody cares about what you think is "beautiful" and "epic". If you want those things, go play Okami or Shadow of the Colossus or whatever. This is a competitive game that very often has decent amounts of money on the line; while it is being played for fun, the fact still stands that it is illogical to add stages to the stagelist that have been logically banned before.
I disagree strongly with this argument. If we change the game in a way that makes it less fun to play or watch, and this causes fewer people to play the game, that hurts the competitive scene.

People talk a lot about "fun vs. competitiveness" as if those two concepts are orthogonal or even opposing. They really aren't.

Anyway, I am making a playlist of some famous matches that would not have happened under the current ruleset. Stuff like PP vs. M2K at ROM3, Darkrain vs. SFAT at FC10. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?feature=edit_ok&list=PL15WXIBkj_BQqkwbDlIQRbaNOd5qG2tjk
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I disagree strongly with this argument. If we change the game in a way that makes it less fun to play or watch, and this causes fewer people to play the game, that hurts the competitive scene.

People talk a lot about "fun vs. competitiveness" as if those two concepts are orthogonal or even opposing. They really aren't.

Anyway, I am making a playlist of some famous matches that would not have happened under the current ruleset. Stuff like PP vs. M2K at ROM3, Darkrain vs. SFAT at FC10. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?feature=edit_ok&list=PL15WXIBkj_BQqkwbDlIQRbaNOd5qG2tjk
This.

APEX 2013 was awesome to watch, but I was blown away at seeing the same few stages used in every single match. It's starting to go dry.
 

Laijin

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This.

APEX 2013 was awesome to watch, but I was blown away at seeing the same few stages used in every single match. It's starting to go dry.
Now just imagine when we have LITERALLY 100,000+ people watching our game from around the world at EVO, with no knowledge of the competitive nature of the game whatsoever, watching the same 2 or 3 stages being played back to back.....
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Now just imagine when we have LITERALLY 100,000+ people watching our game from around the world at EVO, with no knowledge of the competitive nature of the game whatsoever, watching the same 2 or 3 stages being played back to back.....
Yeah, they will be really excited when we get Peach vs Puff in Kongo Jungle 64 in grand finals again.
 

Pengie

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Man i hope that RC and KJ64 get made into counterpicks again so i can get free wins with fox by running away =D

:phone:
 
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