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I hate Marth dittos.

AceDudeyeah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
967
Location
Floridaa!
Always seems like my opponent can fair me out of my combo when I'm trying to start one, yet he can keep me in his. tipper hits or not.

I'm trying to find some recent videos of Marth dittos to watch.
Right now I'm watching Kizzu but surely there are new tech's out there?
Anyone got any links of some good videos to learn from?
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
There's always Ken vs Azen =P

If you want to look them up, I think Cactuar and Magus had some dittos a while back, they should be on YouTube. There was a lot of dtilt, which leads into grabs and such, which is going to be key in the ditto.
 

Roche_CL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
410
-if you can predict grabs and DI them correctly you have a great point in favor (i find this the most important point in a high lvl marth ditto)

-edgeguard and combos are obvious

-"chainthrowing" against a good marth is stupid, try to Fthrow/Dthrow Fsmash, or i try sometimes start with short hop Fair wich in case he DIs correctly out of a grab, I don't get so much lag (if i had done a Fsmash out of the grab)

-when your oponent is coming from the air (usually knocked out by an attack) bait them to spend their 2nd jump, then you can edgeguard easily or combo.

-Dtilt is nice when they DD too much, you should DD a lot in the ditto.

-Dash attack is a nice approach, but don't be so predictive, even spaced it can be punished :/.
 

By-Tor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
63
Location
P-Town
what are you talking about? Marth dittos are fun! At the beginning of the match, grab. grab a lot, by wavedashing and tech chasing. and abuse your range and sweetspots, if you don't, HE will
 

Loto

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
524
Location
Palm Coast, Florida
Lol Ace, play Dark Sonic / queen a lot when you can it'll teach you trust me. I can help too. ;D

SEE YOU AT WINTERFEST We forgot to MM btw lool.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
2,023
Location
Southampton, UK
i hate marth dittos too, its less about swords(which are cool) and more about grabs (which are boring), If i marth ditto my friend the only way i can beat him is follow his techs and be really gay and annoying

also try, maybe even from 0% grab -> fthrow -> regrab -> Fsmash they'll normally try to DI out of the second regrab putting them right in tipper range
 

Nø Ca$h

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,727
Location
Philadelphia PA
i marth dittod lake in pools. lost but it was close. im better now but ur zelda can most likely still beat me. u goin to paks quarter century fest?
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
i hate marth dittos too, its less about swords(which are cool) and more about grabs (which are boring), If i marth ditto my friend the only way i can beat him is follow his techs and be really gay and annoying

also try, maybe even from 0% grab -> fthrow -> regrab -> Fsmash they'll normally try to DI out of the second regrab putting them right in tipper range
If they DI the throw properly, fsmash wont hit, nor will you be able to regrab. This is why stuff like dthrow and uthrow are generally better.

There's also fthrow - wait - react to their DI/jump/etc
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
I think often times in marth ditto's both players try to go on the offensive,
At the beginning of the match chances are they're going to go for the grab
If you see them dash dancing a lot, or staying grounded, watch out for grabs, hell, predict a few
what are they going to approach with, a tilt? a dash attack? won't do much good at lower %'s.
If you see them jumping, they're going for aerials, which you can shieldgrab.
You don't always have to be on the offensive, and if you DI right their grabs won't lead into much, so definitely work the shield, especially if you notice they're getting offensive.
I definitely wouldn't advocate air to air combat, if you're opponent is taking to the sky's then stay grounded, marth is rather vulnerable from below, you can also CC to a decent % if you see he's going for a lot of fair's.
Nair counters spot dodges, to a certain degree, found this out myself recently, *******.
You pretty much need to find what stance your opponent is taking, and find the counter to it
As a samus main who faces a marth, and some times marth ditto's him (you've met him, zer0), a lot of my gameplan for vs. marth is to mess up his spacing and get grabs.
Save your jump when recovering, bair gimps hurt, and could cost you stocks and % that are very valuable.
Don't get caught on stupid platform ****, it's better to just get off of them safely than trying to punish your opponent, I've found light shielding works wonders and C stick to buffer a jump immediately after shield hit stun is a very safe way to get off platforms.
Wave landing off them on the way back down also helps quite a bit, but marth's range is a ***** to deal with, so come down slow, use your side B wisely, waveland and air dodge when it calls for it, if you can touch the ground, do so, but do it safely cause then you get your jump back which will come in handy for making it back on land.
Know your combo's on marth, and when you can't follow them up assume a good position. If he's in the air after you've got in the last hit you can, stay close to him, but keep distance, don't throw out attacks, a lot of people like to jump, count on this and go on the offensive when he's used his options (double jump/side B). If he is coming down and hasn't used his jump, feel free to shield, he can't grab you from the air.
Just remember that you don't always need to be attacking, remember to DI his fairs and Uairs and Utilts correctly or you'll gain a lot of %.
And his grabs as well.
Try to limit your Fsmashes and dash attacks, cause they will get you punished if the marth can WD OoS (I do it all the time, it's mad easy and satisfying to punish marths ****ing Fsmash)
Try to only Fsmash out of combo's, or when he's in the air, same with dash attack. If he has the ability to shield, the reward might not be worth the risk.


Also from 0% I'm pretty sure marth can
Grab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
but it stops here.
Any hits following is poor DI/good reads.
If you are getting hit with Fsmashes then Di diagnally down and away from marth
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
I think often times in marth ditto's both players try to go on the offensive,
At the beginning of the match chances are they're going to go for the grab
If you see them dash dancing a lot, or staying grounded, watch out for grabs, hell, predict a few
what are they going to approach with, a tilt? a dash attack? won't do much good at lower %'s.
If you see them jumping, they're going for aerials, which you can shieldgrab.
You don't always have to be on the offensive, and if you DI right their grabs won't lead into much, so definitely work the shield, especially if you notice they're getting offensive.
I definitely wouldn't advocate air to air combat, if you're opponent is taking to the sky's then stay grounded, marth is rather vulnerable from below, you can also CC to a decent % if you see he's going for a lot of fair's.
Nair counters spot dodges, to a certain degree, found this out myself recently, *******.
You pretty much need to find what stance your opponent is taking, and find the counter to it
As a samus main who faces a marth, and some times marth ditto's him (you've met him, zer0), a lot of my gameplan for vs. marth is to mess up his spacing and get grabs.
Save your jump when recovering, bair gimps hurt, and could cost you stocks and % that are very valuable.
Don't get caught on stupid platform ****, it's better to just get off of them safely than trying to punish your opponent, I've found light shielding works wonders and C stick to buffer a jump immediately after shield hit stun is a very safe way to get off platforms.
Wave landing off them on the way back down also helps quite a bit, but marth's range is a ***** to deal with, so come down slow, use your side B wisely, waveland and air dodge when it calls for it, if you can touch the ground, do so, but do it safely cause then you get your jump back which will come in handy for making it back on land.
Know your combo's on marth, and when you can't follow them up assume a good position. If he's in the air after you've got in the last hit you can, stay close to him, but keep distance, don't throw out attacks, a lot of people like to jump, count on this and go on the offensive when he's used his options (double jump/side B). If he is coming down and hasn't used his jump, feel free to shield, he can't grab you from the air.
Just remember that you don't always need to be attacking, remember to DI his fairs and Uairs and Utilts correctly or you'll gain a lot of %.
And his grabs as well.
Try to limit your Fsmashes and dash attacks, cause they will get you punished if the marth can WD OoS (I do it all the time, it's mad easy and satisfying to punish marths ****ing Fsmash)
Try to only Fsmash out of combo's, or when he's in the air, same with dash attack. If he has the ability to shield, the reward might not be worth the risk.


Also from 0% I'm pretty sure marth can
Grab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
but it stops here.

Any hits following is poor DI/good reads.
If you are getting hit with Fsmashes then Di diagnally down and away from marth
They can immediately get out of the first regrab attempt by either jumping or buffering a roll/spot dodge.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
They can immediately get out of the first regrab attempt by either jumping or buffering a roll/spot dodge.
OMG THEORY BROS! I'M IN!

Dude the marth would totally see that coming and tipper fsmash you out of your jump or spotdodge
 

AceDudeyeah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
967
Location
Floridaa!
I think often times in marth ditto's both players try to go on the offensive,
At the beginning of the match chances are they're going to go for the grab
If you see them dash dancing a lot, or staying grounded, watch out for grabs, hell, predict a few
what are they going to approach with, a tilt? a dash attack? won't do much good at lower %'s.
If you see them jumping, they're going for aerials, which you can shieldgrab.
You don't always have to be on the offensive, and if you DI right their grabs won't lead into much, so definitely work the shield, especially if you notice they're getting offensive.
I definitely wouldn't advocate air to air combat, if you're opponent is taking to the sky's then stay grounded, marth is rather vulnerable from below, you can also CC to a decent % if you see he's going for a lot of fair's.
Nair counters spot dodges, to a certain degree, found this out myself recently, *******.
You pretty much need to find what stance your opponent is taking, and find the counter to it
As a samus main who faces a marth, and some times marth ditto's him (you've met him, zer0), a lot of my gameplan for vs. marth is to mess up his spacing and get grabs.
Save your jump when recovering, bair gimps hurt, and could cost you stocks and % that are very valuable.
Don't get caught on stupid platform ****, it's better to just get off of them safely than trying to punish your opponent, I've found light shielding works wonders and C stick to buffer a jump immediately after shield hit stun is a very safe way to get off platforms.
Wave landing off them on the way back down also helps quite a bit, but marth's range is a ***** to deal with, so come down slow, use your side B wisely, waveland and air dodge when it calls for it, if you can touch the ground, do so, but do it safely cause then you get your jump back which will come in handy for making it back on land.
Know your combo's on marth, and when you can't follow them up assume a good position. If he's in the air after you've got in the last hit you can, stay close to him, but keep distance, don't throw out attacks, a lot of people like to jump, count on this and go on the offensive when he's used his options (double jump/side B). If he is coming down and hasn't used his jump, feel free to shield, he can't grab you from the air.
Just remember that you don't always need to be attacking, remember to DI his fairs and Uairs and Utilts correctly or you'll gain a lot of %.
And his grabs as well.
Try to limit your Fsmashes and dash attacks, cause they will get you punished if the marth can WD OoS (I do it all the time, it's mad easy and satisfying to punish marths ****ing Fsmash)
Try to only Fsmash out of combo's, or when he's in the air, same with dash attack. If he has the ability to shield, the reward might not be worth the risk.


Also from 0% I'm pretty sure marth can
Grab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
Regrab
Fthrow
but it stops here.
Any hits following is poor DI/good reads.
If you are getting hit with Fsmashes then Di diagnally down and away from marth
My friend doesn't JC his grabs, meaning Marth's dash grab where he lunges instead of standing upright seems to be making DI-ing away useless.
Does dash grab really continue the fthrow chain? or am I just crap at getting out of chaingrabs?

Dtilt to dash attack?? New thing! Must try!

The last posts are slightly disturbing....
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
grab fthrow fsmash wait 10 seconds fsmash again grab edge while opponent is respawning


edit- repeat x3
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
2,332
Location
**** Triangle, NC
Can someone approve my marth ditto dash dance janken (rock-paper-scissors)?

Ive been studying the matchup a lot and i want to know if this is anywhere near accurate:

Dash attack>>D-tilt(because the da command is faster than dtilt, which calls for u to cc and then hit a, while DA just requires u to hit A; moreover, DA has a longer range, so tipper distance should beat out d-tilt)

Outspacing>>Dash attack(because DA is so slow, it can be punished easily when whiffed or even CCed)

d-tilt>>outspacing(d-tilt is similar to DA in that it extends way beyond the marth, but it is safer to use against a spacing/keep-away marth because of its IASA frames that make it harder to punish; marth can decide to cancel the windup lag of the tilt by running away or by grabbing if he expects his opponent to punish his tilt, etc)

sound valid to u all? of course its not perfect, but after looking over azen vs ken and time traveling up through event 52 m2k vs cort, this seemed to hold
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
1,730
Location
@ the barnyard
The DA will be CCed if they try to d-tilt, so that's kind of shooting yourself in the foot.

And you should always be outspacing, you're Marth.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
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Northern IL
unless you're really high, you'll CC the dash attack when you try to dtilt and win.

anyways, i've found that trying to simplify the game down to that kind of level is sort of inversely beneficial. The game is very deep and complex, so as you simplify it you lose out on the stuff that is important.

edit- ninja'd by 3C... i guess i'm a really slow typer XD
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
2,332
Location
**** Triangle, NC
I should have added that DA at low percents is extremely risky, but it cant be CCed that high before marth just flops.

but i dont think im wrong to try to simplify things to rps. its not like i tried to boil down the whole matchup, just a lot of the options that marth has to approach the other marth grounded. people need to be able to make quick decisions as to what counters what when they see their opponent obviously committing to something.
 

Brightside6382

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,538
Location
Skokie, IL
I should have added that DA at low percents is extremely risky, but it cant be CCed that high before marth just flops.

but i dont think im wrong to try to simplify things to rps. its not like i tried to boil down the whole matchup, just a lot of the options that marth has to approach the other marth grounded. people need to be able to make quick decisions as to what counters what when they see their opponent obviously committing to something.
The thing about simplifying things to RPS is that you greatly limit your own options in the process. I'm sorry but approaching another Marth is not as simple as DA/d-tilt/proper spacing. Marth may have a lot of options but only a few work in certain situation.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
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personally, i like just rushing in with a nair 7 times in a row, then the 8th time i use SH neutral b and they always get hit.
 
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