I can't find whats so good about Melee.

[Teran]

I think the difference is that you do this repeatedly.

Yeah be careful of this, you're slipping back into those habits and if it continues well you know what will happen.

 

[Glöwworm]

64 is superior to melee.

I used to think this but Smash 64 is such a polarized game. In my opinion, there's almost too much hitstun. Melee is almost the perfect balance of hitstun but I think it still needs a tiny bit more histun for more combo opportunities.

Spoiler

No, I'm not some random that has touched smash 64 once in his life and is basing his opinions on that

 

[Spelt]

A game competitiveness isn't based off the amount of hitstun it has.

 

[Glöwworm]

Smash 64's defining feature is its combo abilities due to hitstun. One grab or hit and you're ****ed (for the most part). I'm aware I'm not looking at the grand scheme of things here, but I think hitstun is one of the key parts in making the game competitive in the sense of combo ability.

 

[Spelt]

Except combos aren't everything, or close to it, they weren't even supposed to exist and it's only thanks to a glitch that they do.

Combos don't make a game competitive, footsies/momentum/offensive & defensive options are what make a game competitive.

Anybody who argues that Melee is the superior game only taking into account the amount of hitstun is honestly pretty clueless.

 

[Glöwworm]

Except combos aren't everything, or close to it, they weren't even supposed to exist and it's only thanks to a glitch that they do.

They're definitely part of the gameplay if we're talking about "competitive play" here (strictly speaking of Melee and Smash 64 here). Unless, you're talking about new players mashing the A button then yeah, combos don't mean squat. Also, Whether the combo ability is a bug or not is irrelevant here. They're there so make use of them.

Combos don't make a game competitive, footsies/momentum/offensive & defensive options are what make a game competitive.

I'm aware of this. That's why I said:

I'm aware I'm not looking at the grand scheme of things here

Anybody who argues that Melee is the superior game only taking into account the amount of hitstun is honestly pretty clueless.

I'll just say to look at my quote again.

The only reason why I only mentioned hitstun is because I believe hitstun is one of the key parts in Smash that makes it competitive in the sense of comboing ability (and it directly relates to Smash 64 and Melee). For example, Brawl lacks hitstun but I don't think it's not competitive because of the lack of hitstun. That's just silly. Brawl is definitely competitive in other ways. Melee has other plenty of factors that makes it competitive.


edit: Why do you believe Smash 64 is superior to Melee?

 

[Spelt]

All that quote tells me is that you know you're wrong about what you're saying yet you continue to say it.

"hitstun is all that matters" "it's not really all that matters"

You don't judge a game competitiveness on each individual mechanic either, it's what they make when they all come together that matters.

Smash 64 is better because I like it better. That holds true with pretty much everyone else's opinions on each game. People like melee better because ... they like it better. Does that mean it's more competitive? No. I bet if you asked most of melee's fanbase WHY it's a better game than brawl/64 they would say something along the lines of "no wavedashing/l-canceling" or "too floaty." Except those things are just opinions and there's no evidence to suggest that they alone make a game more competitive.

There will never be a true better competitive smash game because:
1. None of them were supposed to be competitive from the beginning.
2. There is no 1 person who can express it in a completely and utterly factual way without any bias.

 

[Glöwworm]

No, more like I'm too lazy to type up every single variable in Melee that I think makes it competitive. Hitstun is just one of those easy big variables that I could think of.

Also, at you making me think we weren't talking about what makes a game competitive or "better" on a subjective level. Maybe I'm making hitstun larger than it needs to be but that's just one of the easy things I can talk about right now as I mentioned.

The wavedashing and L-cancelling thing is another can of worms I don't want to open right now lol. I'll just say that I do not care that much for wavedashing as much since I've played Smash 64 just fine and never once thought, "man, I wish wavedashing was in Smash 64". L-cancelling or "Z-cancelling" for 64, is entirely up to one's opinion. Some see it as adding depth to the game, some see it as an unneeded button input barrier to add more "depth" (assuming we're talking about the automatic L-cancelling vs manually L-cancelling). As for me, I've grown so accustomed to pressing a button after an attack that I try to cancel out things in other games. It's a bit annoying having to remember that I don't need to L-cancel anymore but it's something I can gradually learn.


Also, I believe Brawl is the only "real" Smash game that was not meant to be competitive. For example, in Smash 64, Nintendo's Japanese website for SSB64, actually demonstrates Z-cancelling as an "advanced technique". They called it "fall breaking" or something like that. There's also other various tidbits that lead me to believe it was meant to be a tiny bit competitive. Now, in Melee I believe it was also competitive because Sakurai admitted that Melee is too complex. Now, while it's not a direct statement that Melee was meant to be competitive from the get-go, I believe if Sakurai spent all this time, making the game so hard and complex, why would he call it a non-competitive game? Also, don't forget the introduction of the tournament mode . Brawl is the only real game where I believe Sakurai stated he wanted to drift away from the "competitive" side of video games (e.g., removing L-cancelling, wavedashing etc.).

 

[Crooked Crow]

Melee was made to be competitive. Brawl wasn't, and 64 was a test subject.

 

[Spelt]

Also, I believe Brawl is the only "real" Smash game that was not meant to be competitive. For example, in Smash 64, Nintendo's Japanese website for SSB64, actually demonstrates Z-cancelling as an "advanced technique". They called it "fall breaking" or something like that. There's also other various tidbits that lead me to believe it was meant to be a tiny bit competitive. Now, in Melee I believe it was also competitive because Sakurai admitted that Melee is too complex. Now, while it's not a direct statement that Melee was meant to be competitive from the get-go, I believe if Sakurai spent all this time, making the game so hard and complex, why would he call it a non-competitive game? Also, don't forget the introduction of the tournament mode . Brawl is the only real game where I believe Sakurai stated he wanted to drift away from the "competitive" side of video games (e.g., removing L-cancelling, wavedashing etc.).

Sakurai said that like a year ago. He didn't mean for it to end up like that, he made it to be a party game (and has said so multiple times). All games have those small details that the casual player doesn't notice right away. Even games like RPGs have them. Are those meant to be played competitively? No.

He didn't want any of the games to be competitive, which is why he tried so hard to make brawl less so.

Melee was made to be competitive. Brawl wasn't, and 64 was a test subject.

 

[Crooked Crow]

No, you're not understanding. I've seen numerous sources where Sakurai openly admitted Brawl was a watered down version of Melee.

Think about it. Sakurai also made Melee into a fantastic game, but upon release, he received several complaints about how hard Melee was. So, he grew to dislike his creation and created a polar opposite version afterwords.

I do not have these links saved on me, but I can recall reading them perfectly. Also, the developers of Melee knew about wavedashing, and Z Canceling existed in 64 anyways.

 

[Spelt]

No. People didn't even start using wavedashing until four years after Melee was released.

Melee was meant to be a party game, but then it unintentionally ended up having a large competitive following.

Not sure how many times I have to say this before it sticks.

And the devs knowing about wavedashing but choosing not to take it out because it wasn't a big deal is common sense.

 

[nLiM8d]

Well now that's got me curious, I'd like to read some of those "numerous sources"

Not sure how many times I have to say this before it sticks.

I feel you Spelt. It really comes down to how you want to play the game.

If the objective is to win by any means necessary, no doubt you're going to exploit the **** out of the game. ANY game for that matter.

footsies/momentum/offensive & defensive options are what make a game competitive.

Pretty much this.
You really don't have to go much deeper to acknowledge that basis.

 

[Crooked Crow]

They intentionally incorporated a lot of other factors too, with the goal of this being to make it a party game, or a competitive fighting game. (If those doors opened- sort of a plateau.)

It wasn't made with the same mindset as Brawl was.

 

[Twinkles]

The biggest case that you can make is that Sakurai intentionally added anti-competitive elements to Brawl and did no such thing for 64 or Melee. That said, I don't recall any article explicitly saying that Sakurai INTENDED for 64 for Melee to have a competitive following. He just didn't care one way or the other and 64 and Melee ended up the way they ended up. Same with Brawl.

Personally, I don't think Sakurai has any opinion on competitive Smash- he just downright does not care about it lol. Like, he's not on a rampage to destroy any possible hint of competition possible, but if someone complains that Marth has too much range and power and takes fun out of the game and another person complains that the bad character balance takes away complexity from the metagame, I ask you which person Sakurai is more willing to appeal to

 

[nLiM8d]

Helloooo Bowser.

 

[Zankoku]

The only thing Sakurai admitted to doing was making Brawl easier to pick up and play (by slowing things down) because he felt that Melee was just too fast to be universally appealing, and his original goal with Smash was to make a sort of fighting game that everybody could enjoy.

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

 

[nLiM8d]

The only thing Sakurai admitted to doing was making Brawl easier to pick up and play (by slowing things down) because he felt that Melee was just too fast to be universally appealing

This.

If anything, Brawl's fall speeds could have been a bit faster, but then that would be subjective based on what I'm personally looking for/at. Which I don't mind admitting, not sure if I can speak for the rest of the fanbase though.

I bet if you asked most of melee's fanbase WHY it's a better game than brawl/64 they would say something along the lines of "no wavedashing/l-canceling" or "too floaty."

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm really tired of all this "oh yeah? Well that's just your opinion" nonsense. Yes, we all know we are dealing with opinions, you don't need to prove how sympathetic and understanding you are. Something being an opinion doesn't mean the discussion ends. If every opinion ended discussions, no one would grow or learn anything.

Basically, yes, we know it's an opinion, but that should remain an understood bottom line, not a point to be made.

 

[§witch]

I'm really tired of all this "oh yeah? Well that's just your opinion" nonsense. Yes, we all know we are dealing with opinions, you don't need to prove how sympathetic and understanding you are. Something being an opinion doesn't mean the discussion ends. If every opinion ended discussions, no one would grow or learn anything.

Basically, yes, we know it's an opinion, but that should remain an understood bottom line, not a point to be made.

Exactly. This really needs to stop.

 

[nLiM8d]

Basically, yes, we know it's an opinion, but that should remain an understood bottom line, not a point to be made.

Not all person's are insightful as you are. If they were, we would be gaining some insight on why Melee is without a doubt, a fulfilling experience.

Please try to read into the context of the Thread instead of salt posting after reading a few subjective posts.

 

[SolarChimecho]

This topic made my day

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Except combos aren't everything, or close to it, they weren't even supposed to exist and it's only thanks to a glitch that they do.

LMAO This guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-71Dh6vLj8&feature=related

 

[Spelt]

It's important for people to realize their own mistakes.

You can do it, I believe in you.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Oh my ****** god...

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL OPEN?!

I didn't know Teran got fired.

 

[nLiM8d]

Since when?!

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

I was about to say inb4 butthurt meleetards but I guess it's too late.

 

[Spelt]

No, Teran's still a mod.
Userblogs rarely ever close, and why should this one?
We're even still on topic.
kinda...


Melee.

 

[MikeKirby]

What the hell happend to the OP?

Ya'll got trolled.

 

[Teran]

You guys all think you're so smart.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

You're a brave, brave man.

 

[Teran]

Not being sober helps every once in a while.

 

[nLiM8d]

You guys all think you're so smart.

Not really...

 

[Spelt]

I'm Einstein reincarnated.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

melee is better because falcon is better and has the knee

 

[Spelt]

melee is better because I can't think for myself so naturally I think captain falcon is amazing like every other smash player ever

What I read.

 

[Zankoku]

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I have seen the light.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

What I read.

Takes an obvious joke and then uses it in a butt hurt way to insult people.

Man this guy.

 

[nLiM8d]

Obvious jokes can be bad ones too.