Meta I can sense your aura : The Lucario metagame thread

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I can make the MU thread if nobody else wants to.

Be my guest.

 

[Croi]

I did it

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Unfortunately Junebug drowned round 2 in pools. I forgot how Steam did and I only had matchups where Sheik was the better option.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

A very mysterious user just told me that Glancing Counter invincibility starts on frame 3.

Also they also said the piercing AS recovers faster than default AS.

Snaring is just... slow as blue balls when it comes to recovering.

The user said that these boards were a bit toxic and they just wanted me to communicate this. There's some other stuff in this convo I do not wish to summarize. See below.

[11:18:46 AM] wooh: My old teach once told me if there's anyone who cares about esoterics in the luc community it'd be you
[11:18:51 AM] wooh: and I found some neat stuff but yeah
[11:18:58 AM] wooh: You read the contact req already
[11:19:13 AM] wooh: I'm just gonna lay it on you then
[11:19:25 AM] wooh: Customs, though so might not be relevant for awhile
[11:19:32 AM] Infinity: Who was your teach?
[11:19:47 AM] wooh: I didn't really know them by their tag haha
[11:20:01 AM] wooh: But they told me if anyone from the luc community asked just tell them they were the person with the hat
[11:20:04 AM] Infinity: How.. mysterious
[11:20:42 AM] Infinity: Okok
[11:20:53 AM] Infinity: Lemme guess.
[11:20:56 AM] wooh: You know how Default Double Team is
[11:20:59 AM] wooh: frame 4 correct
[11:21:03 AM] Infinity: Yes
[11:21:09 AM] wooh: on the request of another friend of mine
[11:21:17 AM] wooh: since I had 2 wavebirds to have sync'd up
[11:21:27 AM] wooh: and I made sure they were by having jabs clank
[11:21:38 AM] wooh: I was able to find out that Glancing Counter's invincibility come sout on frame 3
[11:22:05 AM] wooh: There are certain things you can reversal out with glancing counter that just aren't possible with double team
[11:22:07 AM] wooh: due to this
[11:22:21 AM] wooh: Falcon Jab for instance etc
[11:22:44 AM] wooh: as a rule of thumb anything falcon slash can get out of
[11:22:50 AM] wooh: Glancing should be able to
[11:23:23 AM] wooh: and I'm sure for those tricky set-ups that rely on the grab invulnerabilty having the invinciblity come out 1 frame faster is legit
[11:23:24 AM] Infinity: Oooohhh
[11:23:32 AM] wooh: I don't recall the frame data on sidesteps in this game
[11:23:40 AM] wooh: but it feels like this is just as fast as Sidestep -> jab?
[11:23:47 AM] wooh: cept you can use it in the air of course
[11:24:12 AM] wooh: I could go on into things you can use it for, but it's mostly theorycraft at that point so I'll just move on
[11:24:18 AM] wooh: Neutral Specials.
[11:24:25 AM] wooh: I had a hunch about this
[11:24:46 AM] wooh: but it seems Piercing Aurasphere is faster than regular Aurasphere in all respects
[11:24:55 AM] wooh: and to check ever further, Snaring is also the slowest in all respects
[11:24:57 AM] Infinity: Getting hit by most Jab 1s.
[11:25:00 AM] Infinity: Woot
[11:25:17 AM] Infinity: And then Glanicing, eh?
[11:25:25 AM] wooh: eh?
[11:25:38 AM] wooh: I'm not sure if I understand that comment
[11:25:42 AM] wooh: but onto data
[11:26:05 AM] wooh: Baby Aurasphere recovery: Piercing > Default > Snaring
[11:26:16 AM] Infinity: What I meant was you know how Jab 1->2 takes a few frames for soem characters?
[11:26:27 AM] wooh: Ah I see
[11:26:30 AM] wooh: Yeah I understand now
[11:26:38 AM] wooh: Although you're still vulnerable to jab -> shield
[11:27:09 AM] wooh: There are some tilts that I'm very surprised can't shield after whiffing on glancing though like sheik dtilt
[11:27:15 AM] wooh: but uhhh
[11:27:30 AM] wooh: Full Charged and Semi Charged: Piercing > Default > Snaring
[11:27:33 AM] wooh: Now here's the kicker
[11:27:36 AM] wooh: Even Full Charged Piercing
[11:27:45 AM] wooh: recovers faster than Default baby
[11:27:57 AM] wooh: tested by holding shield after firing
[11:28:10 AM] wooh: Furthermore
[11:28:16 AM] wooh: Piercing Reaches a full charge faster than Default
[11:28:25 AM] wooh: and Snaring Reaches a full charge slower than default
[11:28:33 AM] wooh: I wish I knew the frames but... there you have it
[11:28:50 AM] wooh: And for completionist sake:
[11:29:06 AM] wooh: Both custom auraspheres rarely interact with projectiles
[11:29:25 AM | Edited 11:29:37 AM] wooh: And the Aurasphere Charge hitbox on all of them is the same start-up
[11:29:55 AM] wooh: And that's all I really have
[11:30:15 AM] wooh: If you need anything tested that requires simutaneus inputs you can hit me up anytime
[11:30:47 AM] wooh: [I hear you play wifi too also but I don't wanna overtep my boundaries :x]
[11:31:12 AM] wooh: Ah I almost forgot though
[11:31:23 AM] wooh: The Testing method I did for f3 jabs vs glancing counter
[11:31:26 AM] Infinity: I'll be happy to play after werk
[11:31:34 AM] wooh: I had 2 tags set-up
[11:31:45 AM] wooh: So the same button would be B on one and A on the other
[11:31:55 AM] wooh: and then with another port
[11:31:55 AM] Infinity: Neat
[11:32:10 AM] wooh: I put it while holding up on the controller so it would think it would be holding down
[11:32:30 AM] wooh: and that's how I made it glancing counter and jab on the same frame
[11:32:49 AM] wooh: again, tested by having them clank tilts with dtilts of the same speed to make sure it really is synched
[11:33:06 AM] wooh: Anyways, have fun with this I guess

 

[Loota]

That Glancing Counter frame 3 invincibility sounds interesting, I'll be sure to play around with that if I can find some cool uses for it.

I still loving doing grounded dairs like mad and I might have noticed something useful regarding it. If you release the control stick to neutral after a RAR and do a dair immediately after, Lucario seems to shift forward a bit with the dair giving it just a bit more precious distance compared to just jumping and dairing. It could be just me but I'm going to start testing it in actual matches anyways.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So wooh contacted me again and told me of a little advanced tech Lucario has.

If you use DTilt and then buffer shield or spotdodge you will move slightly back wooh said.

I decided to test it a little further and discovered you are moved back a bit with a regular USmash, extend your roll a little, and Lucario will move slightly back when charging Aura Sphere buffered out of DTilt.

 

[extremelotus]

So what's Lucario's gameplan

 

[Croi]

Get hit, then don't get hit, and grab lots.

 

[SmashRacer]

After I watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vVug_cxA6A

I did some testing to see which characters his Down Smash can hit when they're hanging on the ledge. Here's the list

Mario: Yes
Luigi: Yes
Peach: No
Bowser: No
Yoshi: Yes
Rosalina & Luma: No
Bowser Jr.: Yes
Wario: No
Donkey Kong: Yes
Diddy Kong: No
Mr. Game & Watch: No
Little Mac: No
Link: No
Zelda: No
Shiek: No
Ganondorf: No
Toon Link: No
Samus: No
Zero Suit Samus: No
Pit: No
Palutena: No
Marth: No
Ike: No
Robin: No
Duck Hunt Duo: Yes
Kirby: No
King DeDeDe: No
Meta Knight: Yes
Fox: No
Falco: No
Pikachu: Yes
Charizard: Yes
Lucario: No
Jigglypuff: No
Greninja: No
R.O.B.: No
Ness: Yes
Captain Falcon: No
Villager: Yes but depends on animation
Olimar: Yes
Wii Fit Trainer: Same as Villager
Shulk: No
Dr. Mario: Yes
Dark Pit: No
Lucina: No
Pac-Man: No
Mega Man: No
Sonic: No

I was standing one small step from the ledge

I tested Aura Sphere on some characters with small hurt boxes, mentioned in the video.
I tested it on Greninja, Ganondorf and Palutena. Greninja and Ganondorf was hit when Lucario was at 76% and Palutena was hit at 73%. It also appears that Force Palm can hit them. But only when Lucario is over 100%

Tell me, if theres more you guys need to know

 

[extremelotus]

Get hit, then don't get hit, and grab lots.

Ok but what about moves, what are his safe moves, approach moves, bad moves, zoning moves, what moves to KO with an such

 

[extremelotus]

Ok but what about moves, what are his safe moves, approach moves, bad moves, zoning moves, what moves to KO, moves that I should use alot an such

 

[Nysyr]

So I was testing out Shocking Counter in slow-mo on the 3ds to test its viability. It pretty much works into up-smash 100% of the time when landed, and pulls opponents in the air to the ground assuming you were close enough for it to not wiff. It also is a true combo into FP grab at low percent but there's a gap where it wouldn't work, and at higher percent only the FP flame would hit. Basically they get popped up too high for the FP grab to get them. Theoretically if you land it in the air it can combo into bair, but that's stretching it and the timing is ******** strict.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Get hit, then don't get hit, and grab lots.

Even as Lucario, I think just letting yourself get hit isn't such a great idea. You may do more damage at a high percent, but there's no downside to preserving your health early on and getting damage in. Your aura will get stronger eventually anyway. You can play more aggressively then you can at high percents, of course, but I don't think "get hit" is a good way of putting it, because it encourages reckless play.

I'd say "play like a normal character, then zone/play carefully/don't get hit once you're in a tight spot" instead.

Ok but what about moves, what are his safe moves, approach moves, bad moves, zoning moves, what moves to KO with an such

I'm not an expert on the aura jackal(yet) but I'll try to tell you what I can.

Once you reach very high percents, the projectile from Force Palm can be used to harass opponents from a distance. Be careful about its lag, though. It's good to keep Aura Sphere handy and to be sneaky with it.

Force Palm, Up Smash, and Up Air are my favorite kill moves. Force Palm only really kills if you manage to get the grab part of it, but it's very satisfying when you do. Up Smash is a tad bit tricky to hit, but if you're up close and personal with it it will catch the opponent, making it effectively faster then his forward/down smashes(just so long as you get really close with it). Aura Sphere can KO on stage if you are at a crazy percents, but it's also really good for edge guarding. An opponent hit off stage by a fully charged Aura Sphere at a decent % probably won't be coming back. U-air can hit opponents off of the top of the screen.

 

[Zenip19]

Starting to get into Lucario and although this may be common knowledge, (sorry if it is) I discovered that on stages with a shape similar to spirit tracks omega, you can use the end of Extreme speed (Up-special) to spike the opponent. And from what I've played, I believe Lucario has pretty good matchups against top tier characters (No hoo haas in this house). Also I find a good combo to use at early % is D-Throw -> Jump -> F-Air -> Jump -> F-Air. Works on all characters, and on some characters you can hit with a third F-air

 

[Croi]

Up throw works much better for aerial combos than down throw does.

 

[Zenip19]

Really? I'll fiddle around, but down throw just seemed like it was the best option.

 

[Zenip19]

Starting to get into Lucario and although this may be common knowledge, (sorry if it is) I discovered that on stages with a shape similar to spirit tracks omega, you can use the end of Extreme speed (Up-special) to spike the opponent When hanging from the edge. And from what I've played, I believe Lucario has pretty good matchups against top tier characters (No hoo haas in this house). Also I find a good combo to use at early % is U-Throw -> Jump -> F-Air -> Jump -> F-Air. Works on all characters, and on some characters you can hit with a third F-air
Edit : Meant to do this to the last post, sorry bout that

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If they just DI away that's not going to do you any good... It is much harder to time DThrow strings compared to UThrow ones.

 

[Zenip19]

Yes up throw works so much better for this purpose, I just tested now. Also are there any uses for F-Throw or B-Throw?

 

[Pitbuller26]

Yes up throw works so much better for this purpose, I just tested now. Also are there any uses for F-Throw or B-Throw?

At higher percents and with right positioning, back throw will kill. Forward throw looks like it should kill when Lucario is a max aura and rage but it doesn't.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Yes up throw works so much better for this purpose, I just tested now. Also are there any uses for F-Throw or B-Throw?

At low % if they miss a tech or their DI sucks BThrow can be followed up with Dash Attack.

Aura Sphere is a non-guaranteed mixup after FThrow. FThrow is really only good if you need space ASAP in Doubles or to get your opponent offstage.

 

[Ulevo]

Back and forward throw are positional throws. They're used based on the situation you're in. Keep in mind though that forward throw has the added benefit of launching them on input really fast, so it is very difficult for the opponent to react with proper DI.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Ending part of UTilt can combo into UAir when both characters are around 80.

This obviously is lethal for some characters if we read their DI.

We can also do a landing UAir with the 1 frame landing lag thing to UTilt at certain percents. Haven't studied it too much tho.

 

[ReRaze]

Ending part of UTilt can combo into UAir when both characters are around 80.

This obviously is lethal for some characters if we read their DI.

We can also do a landing UAir with the 1 frame landing lag thing to UTilt at certain percents. Haven't studied it too much tho.

Whats this 1frame landing lag thing im curious :O

Also back to my real question. How does lucario generally do against Rosaluma? How do Force palm and Aura sphere deal with Luma?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

What are some situations where you guys use Fsmash on lucario. That's probably the only move I never use right now. The lag on Fsmash gives the enemy plenty of time to shield, heck even if you caught a spotdodge with it they could probably still put of a shield in time to block the hit.

Is it for hard reads only, or am I doing something wrong?

 

[DomBadZZZ]

What are some situations where you guys use Fsmash on lucario. That's probably the only move I never use right now. The lag on Fsmash gives the enemy plenty of time to shield, heck even if you caught a spotdodge with it they could probably still put of a shield in time to block the hit.

Is it for hard reads only, or am I doing something wrong?

Use it when you have a hard read like a roll, maybe if theyre dumb enough to air dodge into you,

I use pivot fsmashes sometimes when fast characters are chasing me or approaching too aggressively. If they are approaching with bad spacing (wiffed dash attacks or arieals) it can land but there are better options unless you really need a kill

Either way lucarios smashs leave him very vulnerable so if youre going to use one you better have a high probability that it will hit and kill

 

[Eeveecario]

In my opinion, I prefer killing with Bair or force and chase them off-stage.

Killing while airborne can be easier sometimes, after a while, you can mix up with smashes, and probably they'll land because they're not used to them. Up smash is our "quickest" smash, Fsmash has more range and its faster to recover than Dsmash, but they're equally fast.

Again, I think if you have good mix-ups, landing kills shouldn't be too impossible. Remember there other ways to KO your foe rather than sending them flying, you can try gimping them and most of the cases you'll get back.

 

[ReRaze]

Fsmash breaks weakend shields (heck all of lucarios kill moves do that)...just something you should note.

 

[Sunnysunny]

What are some situations where you guys use Fsmash on lucario. That's probably the only move I never use right now. The lag on Fsmash gives the enemy plenty of time to shield, heck even if you caught a spotdodge with it they could probably still put of a shield in time to block the hit.

Is it for hard reads only, or am I doing something wrong?

Pivot it against those who do lotsa SH air approaches.
Just run back and throw that sucker out. I have moderate success with it. Keep in mind the strong hitbox comes from lucario himself in this one and not the aura plume. If you hit with the arms you'll get obscene knockback in comparison.

Ahh also
I noticed that just spacing n-air really well against someone then tossing an f-smash out afterwards works wonder.
N-air is a wonderful spacing move btw. Incorporate it as one of your main air to ground spacing moves if you haven't~

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Wowza, thanks for the feedback!

Guess it's time for Luca and I to hit the lab again~
Also I haven't been using nair very much, I'll make sure to start spacing it more

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Whats this 1frame landing lag thing im curious :O

Also back to my real question. How does lucario generally do against Rosaluma? How do Force palm and Aura sphere deal with Luma?

When you hit with the first frame of a hitbox with an aerial move... You will only have one frame of landing lag and can combo out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ

 

[ReRaze]

When you hit with the first frame of a hitbox with an aerial move... You will only have one frame of landing lag and can combo out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ

That sounds really hard to time though :/

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Alright so the Lucina/Marth matchup is giving me trouble. Even though Marth's range is worse than it was in past games, I obviously can't outfootsie them and chucking AS's is a bit of a mixed bag cause their dash speed is better than Lucario's. Any advice?

 

[chaos_Leader]

Alright so the Lucina/Marth matchup is giving me trouble. Even though Marth's range is worse than it was in past games, I obviously can't outfootsie them and chucking AS's is a bit of a mixed bag cause their dash speed is better than Lucario's. Any advice?

Play very carefully.

I know, vague, unhelpful, but hear me out.

Because Marth has no projectile and no reflector, a fundamental aspect of the vs. Marth/Lucina matchup is that Lucario doesn't have to approach, and the other guy has to approach if you decide you want to make them. This cuts down their options as they approach, and allows Lucario to be the receptor and disrupt the approach at their leisure.

Just because they have dash speed doesn't invalidate Aura Sphere; it is still a very valuable tool in your arsenal. Simply by the act of firing an AS at the opponent, you can force a defensive reaction; shield, jump, dodge, counter, swat with Fair, whatever; or they get hit by the AS. in any of these cases, it relieves some of the pressure off of Lucario as the other guy is funneled into a reaction, and allows you to play more on your own terms. It's not as great a zoning tool as some other characters', but it's something. Force Palm also becomes a handy zoning/spacing tool at higher %

In general, I've personally had success playing in a way that aims to keep Marth/Lucina at arms length, disrupt them as they close the distance, and jump in with punish options when the other guy fumbles. Punishes include longer range options like AS and FP if they're in position for it and too far to hit with melee options.

 

[Pitbuller26]

One more thing, almost no character in Smash 4 has to respect Lucina. The lack of tippers means her spacing game isn't as scary, threatening or deadly as Marth's. Really, all you have to do is avoid her smashes and you should be good to go.

 

[_D._]

https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...0CmTX-_RmCVEdYBZQaLgO0KyQz4PnAy1c_mfXi6gN&s=1

Check it out. I also have one against pre patched diddy.

 

[Eeveecario]

That Olimar just spammed Side B every single time, honestly, I would have spammed DT every time a pikmin was on me or those purple pikmin on the way.

 

[_D._]

If Oliver predicts the dt. He can catch us at the end.

 

[_D._]

I think it's our hardest mu next to Rosa/Fox

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If Oliver predicts the dt. He can catch us at the end.

We can reverse Double Team too y'know.

I think it's our hardest mu next to Rosa/Fox

If you take out Luma, then Rosalina is like only half a character and if alone none of her attacks are safe on shield.

Olimar and Rosalina's minions have a hard time dealing with Force Palm Shotguns at mid to long range. At high Aura we could wisely camp a little with FP.

So Extreme Speed hitbox comes out on frame 42. Wonder if there is anything we could do to combo into that. Extreme Speed kills are the most hype and disrespectful thing we can do.