Meta I can sense your aura : The Lucario metagame thread

Smog Frog

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#1





So I kinda made this thread for my own benefit, seeing as I am a future Lucario main and this thread doesn't have a metagame thread atm. So discuss match ups, new aura mechanics, and pretty much everything relating to Lucario in smash 4.(I am also confident that I lurked enough)

Aura Sphere: This is Lucario's neutral B move. Holding B charges up a ball of energy, affected by your current %.

I see this as a pressuring tool, seeing as you can whip these out quickly and that the smallest one goes about half the distance of FD. If you press the grab or shield button when charging, you hold the aura sphere for later use. At the higher percents they get really big and therefore have a bigger hitbox.

Force Palm: Lucario's side B. It has a grab hitbox near Lucario at the beginning of the move, and after this grab hitbox disappears, a wave of aura energy(it can be reflected by reflectors, learned this the hard way)extends depending on Lucario's current %.

Considering this moves end lag, I really use it as a punishing tool rather than a spacing option, though it can work as both.

Extreme Speed: Lucario's up B. Lucario pauses in the air for a bit, then goes the direction you hold the circle pad in. Affected by %.

This is crazy at higher %. At first its average, if not a bit subpar, but then it gets a dangerous(and I mean dangerous in that if you aren't careful it can cost you a stock) range(almost all of FD). Has a hitbox near the end

Double Team: Lucario's down B. Lucario strikes a pose, that if he's hit while in this pose, he appears from the direction you hold the circle stick in(I think). Has a ton of lag if you don't get hit.

I tend to avoid this move if I can't read my opponent perfectly. It gets really strong at high %, but its too risky to do it at any percent imo.

 
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|RK|

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#2
Extremespeed has a hotbox at the end of the move. You can hit with it relatively consistently if you have the range down at each level of Aura. It can even kill. I forget at what percents though.

Aura Sphere is also great for punishing and edgeguarding.

Double team can be pretty safe if you have the timing down and a decent read. I don't like its range, though. But it's not crazy unsafe or anything.

Force Palm flame is incredible for spacing at high percents.

That's all I've got for the specials.
 

Masonomace

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#3
For now this can do for a Metagame thread. Lucario doesn't have one & I'm glad it was made. This could also be just me here, but I'm not liking the darken blue text color, it just makes me try too hard to look at my screen, & would dig it if it was a lighter blue like you had the Aura Sphere & Extreme Speed.

-Aura Sphere: Our best move. I feel like Lucario's metagame since Brawl hasn't changed drastically, but the usage of Aura Sphere can remain the same. ASC makes the opponent react & brings them to us because we can actually keepaway in Sm4sh not to mention outcamp at least half of the roster. Off-stage edge-guard sniping & punishing landings can be two huge factors putting AuraSphere to good use. ASC'ing in turn would make them react by shielding, rolling, or the option we want them to take which is jumping so that punishing the landing is worthy. Did we mention that it's faster too?:shades:

-Force Palm: The flame & grab traded roles sorta. Still a good move. Like Aura Sphere the Flame portion is a projectile & can be reflected & absorbed like the OP said about reflection. And as RK Joker said, it's a great spacing tool at high % which was a solid buff to it. The slight nerf is that FP doesn't have the F1FP upon landing it seems, & that the command grab range is shorter than Brawl's was. The Flame is what we may revolve our playstyle around

-Extreme Speed: It does have an ending hit-box as RK Joker said & it was extremely buffed this time around. It's noteworthy that we should always aim for anywhere on the stage surface if you're going to recover from off-stage / screen. Aiming straight up no matter how huge the distance you shoot, can be punished upon landing if you don't guide it correctly.

-Double Team: I loved this move in Brawl, shocking right? When I asked Reikou to test it for me I saw just how improved it became & honestly it's more useful than it was previously. Nothing about it changed except for two things:
  1. The start-up is quicker, thus can actually punish moves when disappearing
  2. The slide distance when using the Reversed option is much better & can be an even better GTFO move, or a better punish
The usage of Double Team like I said hasn't really changed, but the execution of the move is worth using it now. Back in Brawl I used this move for off-stage projectiles that would edge-guard me by gimping or KO'ing, & the RDT is what edge-guard breaks a lot of those shenanigans. Punishing a character's edge attack is worth doing, that hasn't changed. Punishing very powerful attacks such as Fsmashes, Falcon / Warlock Punches, any move that has slow start-up or long ending lag is worth punishing with instead of shielding or rolling away.

EDIT: Double Team's Reversed slide option is far better than the regular DT slide, so if you're going to punish something but are afraid of being punished for it, USE THE REVERSED SLIDE.
 
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Pentao

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#4
How does one deal with approaching Projectile Heavy characters, like R.O.B. who cycle through laser, gyro, gyro throw, etc.?

It disrupts any attempt to charge your aura sphere very easily. I feel that going with short hopped aerials is the way to go, but it's riskier against opponents who can have large hitboxes, like Link's up tilt/smash.
 

Fastblade5035

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#5
I secondary Lucario, and from my experience, he is great once he can get in on an opponent. Grabs can lead to Fair follow-ups, or, if I'm near the edge, I just basic A combo, jump off-stage, and Nair while maintaining appropriate weight (It's safe to fast fall because of Sanicspeed.)

Aura Sphere at about 70%+ is very spammable and at that point I can usually just camp. Aura Sphere will wreck them,and if they shield it, you can Extremespeed in a crescent and land on them after they drop their shield.

I like him a lot more than in Brawl.
 

Masonomace

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#6
Wait. . .. . . . .

@ RT RT & @ MythTrainerInfinity MythTrainerInfinity
What if the Extreme-edge-hog wasn't useless in this game & if it was used later after they ledge-grab first, we grab it second & make them bounce away & edge-guard them accordingly?
How does one deal with approaching Projectile Heavy characters, like R.O.B. who cycle through laser, gyro, gyro throw, etc.?

It disrupts any attempt to charge your aura sphere very easily. I feel that going with short hopped aerials is the way to go, but it's riskier against opponents who can have large hitboxes, like Link's up tilt/smash.
Me personally I would roll towards ROB while he lasers, but would Double Team accordingly to his Gyro throw / Gyro on the ground. Depending where I'm facing is how I'll DT whether it's regular or reversed.
 

RT

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#7
This is something I have not yet tried yet because I have been grinding all single player for custom moves. These challenges are such time sinks...

I will try to sneak it in today.
 
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#8
Wait. . .. . . . .

@ RT RT & @ MythTrainerInfinity MythTrainerInfinity
What if the Extreme-edge-hog wasn't useless in this game & if it was used later after they ledge-grab first, we grab it second & make them bounce away & edge-guard them accordingly?

Me personally I would roll towards ROB while he lasers, but would Double Team accordingly to his Gyro throw / Gyro on the ground. Depending where I'm facing is how I'll DT whether it's regular or reversed.
Hmmm, footstooling out of that seems like it may work you can also wall cling jump out of that to save your double jump for shinanegans. Most of his air attacks should be possible, but our nerfed air game receives a resounding "meh" from me and if you miss you're gonna get punished pretty badly.
 

|RK|

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#9
How does one deal with approaching Projectile Heavy characters, like R.O.B. who cycle through laser, gyro, gyro throw, etc.?

It disrupts any attempt to charge your aura sphere very easily. I feel that going with short hopped aerials is the way to go, but it's riskier against opponents who can have large hitboxes, like Link's up tilt/smash.
Probably not a great idea, but personally I do small charges then roll, shield and sidestep accordingly in order to get a full or near-full charge. So far it's worked for me, though, so.
 

Masonomace

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#10
How does one deal with approaching Projectile Heavy characters, like R.O.B. who cycle through laser, gyro, gyro throw, etc.?

It disrupts any attempt to charge your aura sphere very easily. I feel that going with short hopped aerials is the way to go, but it's riskier against opponents who can have large hitboxes, like Link's up tilt/smash.
Hmm. . .ROB's laser did get some changes along with the Gyro. Though their execution is the same, & Glide Tossing isn't possible in Sm4sh that I know of either, so like RK Joker said, dashes+shield canceling+rolls is a great approach if you're at a stage-wide distance from ROB. Me personally approaching ROB I mix it up:
  1. I Reverse Double Team toward ROB if he shoots the fully charged laser at me. RDT is a huge sliding distance & it easily closes the gap instantly almost in his mid-range practically, & that's from a stage-wide distance!
  2. Gyro's thrown at you opt you to usually shield them, or item catch them with SH+AirDodge when you can. Another way of dealing with annoying Gyros on the ground that I do is SH into them & DT on top of them & reverse the direction so I'm sliding towards ROB. IF I'm nearby ROB & his gyro's on the ground I do the regular DT to slide past him for an attempt to hit him along the linear dash hit
 

Pentao

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#11
Thanks for the advice, the next time I actually fight a R.O.B. player, I'll keep double teaming obvious projectiles in mind. Though I'll have to work on RDTing.

I think I'll also charge sphere more rarely in the neutral as well. Just a bad habit I tend to do because it's somewhat safe in other match ups. I'm trying to work on not charging sphere at dumb times, 'cause I've been eating attacks like Sheik needles 'cause of it.


In general match ups, how should I go about edge guarding with Lucario? I haven't gone off stage much, because if I have an advantageous position like that, I tend to charge sphere and edge guard with sphere. What mind games or off-stage chases tend to be nice options?
 

Masonomace

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#12
Thanks for the advice, the next time I actually fight a R.O.B. player, I'll keep double teaming obvious projectiles in mind. Though I'll have to work on RDTing.

I think I'll also charge sphere more rarely in the neutral as well. Just a bad habit I tend to do because it's somewhat safe in other match ups. I'm trying to work on not charging sphere at dumb times, 'cause I've been eating attacks like Sheik needles 'cause of it.


In general match ups, how should I go about edge guarding with Lucario? I haven't gone off stage much, because if I have an advantageous position like that, I tend to charge sphere and edge guard with sphere. What mind games or off-stage chases tend to be nice options?
Because the Blast Zones seem a lot more big in Sm4sh, it's relatively safe to RDT those meaty lasers that are aimed toward you off-screen, BUT you shouldn't use RDT if you're too close to the Blast Line to the point the "hoop" circle is around you. RDT's start-up teleport starts way behind Lucario, but the RDT slide going forward is a much longer horizontal distance slide airborne than a regular DT.

Edge-guarding includes FAS, FCAS, AS in general is a great edge-guarding tool to snipe characters off-stage with. Walk-off Dairs near the ledge are also a decent option to use for recovering characters using their UpB / DoubleJump as well. Fair, Nair, or RARBair also good aerials too.
 
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#13
Omega pillared stages are soooo good for Lucario.

You know the whole one edge grab invincibility thing? Extreme Cling right below the ledge out of range of an opponent's smash and you then have the option to grab the ledge if you press up or wall jump.

We can choose when we want to use that ledge invincibility if we cling.

Another thing is if you footstool characters like Little Mac, Mario, Captain Falcon, etc. offstage... They are not going to come back unless you did it too high or if they have a good wall jump. Even then, it's a free DAir.

Another thing I like to do as a mixup is to use Dash Attack on shield and UTilt, Force Palm, or a quick move.

We also can do so many shenanigans with first hit of DAir/FTilt/Aura Sphere charge. A lot of characters have no choice but to be frame trapped with landing lag when they land. Think of all of the possibilities!
 

ORVO5

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#14
Anyone string up a good combo for Lucario yet? I've been playing with him a lot recently but can't seem to do well racking up damage with the more experienced players on For Glory, though I have been able to use him successfully above 50%, would love to hear some feedback from fellow Lucario players.
 
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#17
UTilt on Falcon or other heavies to UTilt to UTilt at low %, etc. If they DI poorly they will take like 30% or so.

Try to learn the different knockbacks of UTilt. Since the visual crescent arc does a bit more knockback and damage.
 
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hichez50

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#18
UTilt on Falcon or other heavies to UTilt to UTilt at low %, etc. If they DI poorly they will take like 30% or so.

Try to learn the different knockbacks of UTilt. Since the visual crescent arc does a bit more knockback and damage.
You can go a step further.

Utilt>Utilt > Sheild works so well. After the second one most characters can land or punish unsafely(knowing which one's can comes down to MU knowledge), but after they hit your shield you can grab and down throw or up throw. If you think your opponent will vector up use up throw or else dthrow, often times, sends them too far often times. Then after throw the real follow up games begins you can fair or up air depending on the situation then follow that up with an option that covers landing options.

Does anyone know if force palm ever becomes safe or shield?
 

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#19
Someone needs to a make lucario match up thread to find some of his bad match ups and ways to get around them. I personally don't like fast rush down characters like Shiek, Zero suit, Falcon, little mac, and etc. I usually have a hard time and have to rely on high % to deal with them. Any here feeling the same and if you have any advice I'm all ears.
 

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#20
Lucario had bad matchups with all the top tiers in Brawl. I wonder if the same thing will happen here again...
 

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#21
I feel like thats going to be the case, because fast paced character provide so much pressure thats it hard to get them into traps. And his air priority is not really good making it really hard to approach them, plus if you read people like zero suit and go for the punish they usually can get out of it with ease. I know well RDT can save the day, but with the top tier characters they could just mind **** you into RDT spam, (Especially stages with no wall to hang on), he run out of options quick, but that just my opinion. Anybody feel differently?
 

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#22
Someone needs to a make lucario match up thread to find some of his bad match ups and ways to get around them. I personally don't like fast rush down characters like Shiek, Zero suit, Falcon, little mac, and etc. I usually have a hard time and have to rely on high % to deal with them. Any here feeling the same and if you have any advice I'm all ears.
I have another thread idea for gathering data faster instead on how to beat other characters we focus on how to beat lucario and vice versa with other character discussions. So instead of reading for hours about others character metagame we could just focus on weakness within the characters and how to turn it into a strength, etc. So it will help both parties who will want to look into it, people who want to beat the toon, or how to make that toon better, yada yada.
 

RT

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#23
Just don't rely on DT too much. It's a better move than it was in Brawl, but spamming DT is never a good choice.

I'm starting to see how some matchups will play out, but none of this matters until the Wii U version comes out.
 
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Pentao

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#24
I feel like against most speedy characters (except Sheik), you can get away with just charging Aura Sphere if they're too far away. Charged Sphere eats up Paralyzers, and forces every single of one of them to slow their approach down, mitigating one of their greatest strengths. Hell, just semi-charged and uncharged spheres can force them to move slower or approach through the air.

ZSS has a hard time landing her kill moves. Constant air dodging makes her rely heavily on reading your movements to score that finishing hit, meaning you'll often live to higher percents. There's not a lot she can do to stop you from sphere charging either, as unless she's always on top of you with her paralyzer, she's not going to hit you with it.

You should get used to playing defensively for these matches. Not actually forcing yourself in a defensive position, but just due to the fact that they're so much faster than you that you know they can often hit you before you can do something, you'll naturally be defending a lot. Don't forget to go offensive when the momentum shifts. Lucario is never really outgunned in any of these match ups I feel. Though I would say faster characters are more troublesome than slower ones, as you just get less Aura Sphere charging opportunities, and their higher priority means you can't risk trading nearly as often either.
 

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#25
Thanks and I'm a very defensive player, I'm going to have some vids up on the youtube thread soon, but the quality is not the greatest. So if you would like to critique me that would be awesome. I feel I have a good chance against them too, its just I always have to work and rely on camping.
 

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#26
Just don't rely on DT too much. It's a better move than it was in Brawl, but spamming DT is never a good choice.

I'm starting to see how some matchups will play out, but none of this matters until the Wii U version comes out.
You're right, I'm just looking to find a main that I can keep through to the wii u
 
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#27
Don't rely too much on always charging up your Aura Sphere fully against quick characters. They have to respond to Baby Aura Spheres as well.

Falcon is a strange matchup. I have noticed that his leading foot is not protected when he Falcon kicks and will run into a charging Aura Sphere if you are facing the other direction. I have even Force Palm grabbed him, but the timing is not easy.

Keep in mind how far Falcon and other characters have to move before they can dash grab. There is a bit of a dead zone if they spam dash grabs or you can just oos DAir.
 
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ORVO5

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#31
So hey guys, I thought you might appreciate this. I'd post it in the video thread but I figured you guys would be a better audience for this.

I've been playing with Lucario more and more in a technical sense. I am still getting used to the reaction time with the online lag as well as the 3DS control stick so you'll see me get knocked out when I meant to counter or block etc. but I am getting the hang of how different players online deal with Lucario. Today I went up against this pretty badass Robin player and this was our third match, kicked my butt twice already (I believe both were 2-1) and by this third round I got so fed up, my own Aura kicked in.... (wait 'til the end.)


I've been trying to do combos like how other characters have their routine (like ROB for example), but to me it seems like Lucario has to have a different combo for every other character. I didn't play him in Brawl so I don't know if that's actually the case, but from playing 120-ish matches on For Glory with him, that's what I've noticed.

PS Sorry for the poor video quality, this is probably the first ever video I've ever uploaded of anything.
 
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Masonomace

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#32
I'd give critique, but having less experience with playing Smash 4 Lucario, I'd only base my critiquing off of Brawl Lucario past experience, which isn't enough. I liked the few DT's you performed around the end of the match though.
 

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#33
Thanks! Me too haha. Who knew a little adrenaline would get me to get the timing correctly? I'm also pretty proud of juggling him in the air with the up air>jump>up air, nothing new but I've been trying to pull that off for awhile now in a 1vs1 online. The thing I find interesting is, I'm not sure if it's the lag, but his specials seem to require a bit of foresight, in that you counter before you think you're about to counter or when calculating the distance between you and your opponent depending on your damage if you want to get a hit with Extreme Speed. Definitely gonna be in For Glory a lot. Though I assume I'd be more effective locally...
 
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ORVO5

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#35
Seems like a recurring theme with Lucario, that you have to get him around 50%-100% to be truly effective. Nice wall clings though, I need to get the hang of that. Surprised you didn't do many (or any) DTs.

I'm gonna try using non-charged Aura Sphere in 50% or below matches, I think that would be helpful. Maybe AS followed by ES as a bread and butter?
 
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Masonomace

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#36
Here's a battle with a really good shiek I fought on for glory if you want to check it out http://youtu.be/kE5incqqDLM
I didn't watch it all but, the DT you performed at 0:26 must be Reversed if you want to reserve your entire recovery properly, especially for Omega stages with large walls all the way down. If you Reverse Double Team, then Lucario's recovery becomes god-like. That's all I have to say for now, I'll continue watching.
 

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#37
Seems like a recurring theme with Lucario, that you have to get him around 50%-100% to be truly effective. Nice wall clings though, I need to get the hang of that. Surprised you didn't do many (or any) DTs.

I'm gonna try using non-charged Aura Sphere in 50% or below matches, I think that would be helpful. Maybe AS followed by ES as a bread and butter?
Thanks, and yeah I wasn't confident using DT yet. I'm going to have some better vids up tomorrow, better gameplay but same quality. Try looking at my lucario vs little mac I try to incorporate a fake out with using a quick Dair
 

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#38
I didn't watch it all but, the DT you performed at 0:26 must be Reversed if you want to reserve your entire recovery properly, especially for Omega stages with large walls all the way down. If you Reverse Double Team, then Lucario's recovery becomes god-like. That's all I have to say for now, I'll continue watching.[/quote
I going to have better vids tomorrow I just upload a couple of my bad match up so I could get some advice, and RDT on 3ds remote and lag equal alot of stupidity
 

Loota

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#39
Can someone confirm if AS charge at higher percents hits all ledge options sans roll? I've been wondering that for a while but haven't got to test if properly. It would be an incredible tool to limit the opponents options from the ledge and even if he decides to roll past you you're facing him with a fully charged AS -> free hit. The only option they would have left is to drop down and try to come up with something for which you should already be prepared.

Another smaller detail I found is that RAR dair seems to gains just a tiny bit of more distance vs. doing it simply from a run. Considering how useful dair is even on the ground this should be helpful when you need just a bit of extra distance.
 

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#40
Can someone confirm if AS charge at higher percents hits all ledge options sans roll? I've been wondering that for a while but haven't got to test if properly. It would be an incredible tool to limit the opponents options from the ledge and even if he decides to roll past you you're facing him with a fully charged AS -> free hit. The only option they would have left is to drop down and try to come up with something for which you should already be prepared.
I'm not too familiar with l33t speak. Did you mean will it hit people hanging on the ledge at high percentages? If so then no, I tried 100%, 150%, 200%, and 250%, never hit anyone hanging from a ledge.
 
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