Meta I can sense your aura : The Lucario metagame thread

Masonomace

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#81
It didn't really feel like it. The normal FP covers about 45% of the length of BF but the extended was just a bit longer reaching for something between 50-55% unless I'm just screwing something up...? I didn't pay any attention to the damage though.
Set the damages to 0%, then 70%, then 110% & compare the differences. Try the Omega Mushroomy Kingdom stage & have a CPU set at distances where you know the compared FP & Lon-Distance FP will connect based off measuring the visible blocks. Roll towards one side & test them distances.;)

And for the final comparison challenge, have Lucario at 190% & test them both. LDFP will be very long distance.
 
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#82
So crouch cancelling...

Lucario easily dies at 150% hitting the Mute City track with the best DI I can muster, but he doesn't even die at 180% with crouch canceling/vector DI down. Give it a test in Training and maybe you'll survive a lot more...
 

Steam

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#83
after fiddling with customs I actually think full default lucario would be my preference. default aura sphere is just such a useful tool in all situations and the cooldown after firing snaring aurasphere is just soooooooooo long. while advancing force palm is also really good, the startup is much longer so punishing with it will be extremely hard, and you completely lose the ability to zone with it.
 
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Jaxas

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#84
Just as a heads up, I've been using the loadout of 1-3-1-1 most of the time so I have a decent idea of how the LDFP (yeah we need a better name) works.

It's a really large hitbox, and it hits further into the flame than standard FP. However what I always found as its best use was the grab portion, while slow, still kills reliably while Lucario's at 0%. It quickly became my go-to "Oh **** I died first and need this kill before he gets too much percent on me" move.

The problem being that I would generally get the grabs by inputting it at normal FP grab timing, and it grabbing them after their spotdodge...
As of right now I'm alternating a bunch between LDFP and standard FP.

Also, I keep hearing that SAS is amazing and I agree, but whenever I use it in match I just can't seem to figure out how to use it best. While ledgeguarding I seem to just be too slow (I should be throwing it at the ledge, correct?), and I lose all of those wonderful landing punishes with standard AS. When I manage to get it right, SAS is godly, but I can't seem to use it right.

Basically, any tips on where I should be using SAS (including spacings, timings, etc, preferably)?

Thanks!
 
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#85
Snaring Aura Sphere is the most underrated custom move he has. It's insane Area of Denial tool, great for big bodies.
It also works against Shiek/Greninja for their SH tools, and I don't thing Shiek can Bouncing Fish over it.
 
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#88
Can't Sheik/Greninja just camp all day with Needles/Shurikens if we use Snaring Aura Sphere?

There's a lot of unexplored potential with that move... Hmmm....
 

Loota

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#89
So crouch cancelling...
Lucario easily dies at 150% hitting the Mute City track with the best DI I can muster, but he doesn't even die at 180% with crouch canceling/vector DI down. Give it a test in Training and maybe you'll survive a lot more...
Seems interesting, especially after you wrote of the Samus example of us surviving nearly 70% longer than her up to 200%. We would be instantly broken if those percents could be pulled of consistently even if I don't believe it to be the case.

To another subject, I noticed that if we ledgehop as far as possible from either side of battlefield, Lucario happens to land directly on the edge of the platforms giving us a chance to edgecancel our airdodges into anything in air. Just a small detail but will probably prove to be quite useful.
 
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RT

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#91
You shouldn't let yourself be pressured by needle camping, because they do so little damage even if they all hit. They do what, 8% max? It's mostly psychological, but they are an amazing interrupt tool.at the same time.
 

Croi

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#92
I'm maining Lucario atm, so here's his frame data! I didn't see a better thread to post all of this, so I'll post it here.

Every spoiler tag contains a .gif animation, slowed to 10 FPS. Every .gif begins one frame before the animation for his attack/action begins and cuts out one frame after he can shield/do something else, unless otherwise stated.

All shield data refers to the earliest you can shield after the action. If the action is an attack, it assumes the attack hits, so it's including the hitstun from the strike.

All damage values are when Lucario is at 0%.

If you think I made a mistake somewhere, feel free to tell me I'm dumb and I'll look at it a little harder.

jab1:
hits on frame 6
shield on frame 39
does 2%
no kill potential

jab2:
hits on frame 22 (16 frames after jab1)
shield on frame 60
does 2%
no kill potential

jab3:
hits on frame 43 (21 frames after jab2)
shield on frame 81
does 2%
low kill potential

ftilt:
first hit on frame 12/second on frame 20
shield on frame 43
does 3%/4%/7% total
medium kill potential

utilt:
hits on frame 6
shield on frame 39
does 4%
low kill potential

dtilt:
hits on frame 9
shield on frame 31
does 4%
low kill potential

fsmash:
hits on frame 25 (may be faster by as many as four frames; my fastest input time still included some
of the charging animation)
shield on frame 59
sweetspot does 11%/sourspot does 9%
high kill potential

usmash:
first hit on frame 15/second on frame 24
shield on frame 77
does 3%/10%/13% total
high kill potential

dsmash:
hits on frame 22 (may be faster by as many as four frames)
shield on frame 61
does 10%
high kill potential

dash attack:
hits on frame 8
shield on frame 49
does 6%
low kill potential

grab:
hits on frame 6
no shield/shield on frame 30 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential
dash grab:
hits on frame 7
no shield/shield on frame 37 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential
pivot grab:
hits on frame 10
no shield/shield on frame 35 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential

B (Aura Sphere):
"charging hitbox" begins on frame 12
fully charges in 104 frames
hits as early as frame 20 after firing
charging can be interrupted by shield starting frame 13
shield on frame 64 after firing
full charge does 12%
full charge has high kill potential

Side+B (Force Palm):
"flame" hits on frame 24
"grab" hits on frame 9
shield on frame 65 if whiffed
"flame" does 8%
"grab" does 9%
"flame" has medium-low kill potential
"grab" has high kill potential

Up+B (Extreme Speed):
hits on frame 46
helpless on frame 75
shield on frame 38 (after landing lag)
does 4%
low kill potential

Down+B (Double Team):
earliest activation on frame 4/latest on frame 36
hits on frame 26 (after activation)
shield on frame 76 (after activation)/shield on frame 81 if whiffed
does 9%
very high kill potential

nair:
hits on frame 8/latest hit on frame 26
shield on frame 11 (after landing lag)
sweetspot does 6%/sourspot does 4%
medium-low kill potential
fair:
hits on frame 8
shield on frame 19 (after landing lag)
does 4%
low kill potential

bair:
hits on frame 17
shield on frame 17 (after landing lag)
does 10%
high kill potential
dair:
first hit on frame 4/second on frame 16
shield on frame 11 (after landing lag)
does 4%/4%/8% total
medium kill potential

uair:
hits on frame 10
shield on frame 24 (after landing lag)
does 8%
high kill potential
helpless landing lag:
shield on frame 40 (after landing lag)
forward roll:
shield on frame 31
invincibility ends on frame 18

back roll:
shield on frame 31
invincibility ends on frame 18

spotdodge:
shield on frame 28
invincibility ends on frame 18

airdodge:
invincibility begins on frame 2
invincibility ends on frame 23
can act again on frame 31
shield on frame 24 (after landing lag)

jumpsquat:
in the air on frame 5
 
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Masonomace

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#93
@ Croi Croi I love it!

Two minor issues however:
  1. Dash Attack has a late hit-box
  2. Double Team has a Reverse option, or is the frame data overall the same despite Lucario reappearing from a different location?

    I would not expect it to be the same because of the much longer distance Lucario travels during the sliding attack. He may have different frame data if using the RDT
 
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RT

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#94
Neat.

Hmm, this confirmed a few of my suspicions.
 

Croi

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#95
@ Croi Croi I love it!

Two minor issues however:
  1. Dash Attack has a late hit-box
  2. Double Team has a Reverse option, or is the frame data overall the same despite Lucario reappearing from a different location?

    I would not expect it to be the same because of the much longer distance Lucario travels during the sliding attack. He may have different frame data if using the RDT
1) I'm aware, I just didn't include it. This is only a rough estimate since I'm not rerecording anything, but if I had to guess, dash attack's latest hitbox ends on frame 15, thereabouts.
2) They both come out on the same frame and they both hit just as quickly; the only observable difference that I can tell is the distance traveled.
 

Jaxas

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#97
I'm maining Lucario atm, so here's his frame data! I didn't see a better thread to post all of this, so I'll post it here.

Every spoiler tag contains a .gif animation, slowed to 10 FPS. Every .gif begins one frame before the animation for his attack/action begins and cuts out one frame after he can shield/do something else, unless otherwise stated.

All shield data refers to the earliest you can shield after the action. If the action is an attack, it assumes the attack hits, so it's including the hitstun from the strike.

All damage values are when Lucario is at 0%.

If you think I made a mistake somewhere, feel free to tell me I'm dumb and I'll look at it a little harder.

jab1:
hits on frame 6
shield on frame 39
does 2%
no kill potential

jab2:
hits on frame 22 (16 frames after jab1)
shield on frame 60
does 2%
no kill potential

jab3:
hits on frame 43 (21 frames after jab2)
shield on frame 81
does 2%
low kill potential

ftilt:
first hit on frame 12/second on frame 20
shield on frame 43
does 3%/4%/7% total
medium kill potential

utilt:
hits on frame 6
shield on frame 39
does 4%
low kill potential

dtilt:
hits on frame 9
shield on frame 31
does 4%
low kill potential

fsmash:
hits on frame 25 (may be faster by as many as four frames; my fastest input time still included some
of the charging animation)
shield on frame 59
sweetspot does 11%/sourspot does 9%
high kill potential

usmash:
first hit on frame 15/second on frame 24
shield on frame 77
does 3%/10%/13% total
high kill potential

dsmash:
hits on frame 22 (may be faster by as many as four frames)
shield on frame 61
does 10%
high kill potential

dash attack:
hits on frame 8
shield on frame 49
does 6%
low kill potential

grab:
hits on frame 6
no shield/shield on frame 30 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential
dash grab:
hits on frame 7
no shield/shield on frame 37 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential
pivot grab:
hits on frame 10
no shield/shield on frame 35 if whiffed
variable damage
variable kill potential

B (Aura Sphere):
"charging hitbox" begins on frame 12
fully charges in 104 frames
hits as early as frame 20 after firing
charging can be interrupted by shield starting frame 13
shield on frame 64 after firing
full charge does 12%
full charge has high kill potential

Side+B (Force Palm):
"flame" hits on frame 24
"grab" hits on frame 9
shield on frame 65 if whiffed
"flame" does 8%
"grab" does 9%
"flame" has medium-low kill potential
"grab" has high kill potential

Up+B (Extreme Speed):
hits on frame 46
helpless on frame 75
shield on frame 38 (after landing lag)
does 4%
low kill potential

Down+B (Double Team):
earliest activation on frame 4/latest on frame 36
hits on frame 26 (after activation)
shield on frame 76 (after activation)/shield on frame 81 if whiffed
does 9%
very high kill potential

nair:
hits on frame 8/latest hit on frame 26
shield on frame 11 (after landing lag)
sweetspot does 6%/sourspot does 4%
medium-low kill potential
fair:
hits on frame 8
shield on frame 19 (after landing lag)
does 4%
low kill potential

bair:
hits on frame 17
shield on frame 17 (after landing lag)
does 10%
high kill potential
dair:
first hit on frame 4/second on frame 16
shield on frame 11 (after landing lag)
does 4%/4%/8% total
medium kill potential

uair:
hits on frame 10
shield on frame 24 (after landing lag)
does 8%
high kill potential
helpless landing lag:
shield on frame 40 (after landing lag)
forward roll:
shield on frame 31
invincibility ends on frame 18

back roll:
shield on frame 31
invincibility ends on frame 18

spotdodge:
shield on frame 28
invincibility ends on frame 18

airdodge:
invincibility begins on frame 2
invincibility ends on frame 23
can act again on frame 31
shield on frame 24 (after landing lag)
Hmm...
I'll have to compare it to other characters to see if I just don't have a good frame of reference, but some of that is a bit disheartening.
Looks like jab is even worse than I thought, too.

Could you count the frames that it takes for him to become airborne from a jump (specifically SH), please?
 

Loota

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#98
Good job Croi! Those will definitely come in handy!

Now, has anyone tried linking grounded dair to upB? Suprisingly, it feels very much like a true combo at certain percents which would be awesome since it setups to edgeguards basically from anywhere provided that you don't kill yourself in the process. Like all other combos Lucario has, it's very much dependable on %'s but that shouldn't stop us from learning it.
 

Croi

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#99
Hmm...
Could you count the frames that it takes for him to become airborne from a jump (specifically SH), please?
You're the fourth person to ask me for jumpsquat frames. They're not very easy to get, but they seem important to people.

I don't believe the roll frame data. there's no way there's that much vulnerability
I based it on the exact frame he stops flashing. Is that incorrect? Because if so, I can take another look at it.

EDIT:

jumpsquat:
in the air on frame 5

Of the four characters I've gotten frame data for so far (Lucario, Villager, Robin, and Little Mac), it seems there's no difference between their shorthops and fullhops when it comes to jumpsquat frames. As in, both of Lucario's are frame 5; both of Little Mac's are frame 6; etc.
 
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Good work, Croi. I honestly cannot like your post enough.

The vase damages for some moves are not correct (because Sakurai loves trolling). If you look at the Aura Chart (and in training mode) you'll see that base Aura Sphere fully charged does 11%. It rounds up for some reason in the WiFi waiting rooms.

Oh and by the by this game has a buffering system, so you'll be able to do smashes buffered with 0 charge if you wanna get 100% accurate frame data. Ultilzing the Aura Chart if you do it in training mode at a % right before the smash increases in power... You'll be able to tell if you charged it or not as well.

Again though I cannot thank you enough for doing this.

Edit: have you noticed any interesting IASA frames?
 
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Rysir

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Is there any practical use for the odd hitbox of dtilt? It helped me quite a few times but mainly on accident because people dont know that it can hit from behind if they are close enough to lucario.
 

Masonomace

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Is there any practical use for the odd hitbox of dtilt? It helped me quite a few times but mainly on accident because people dont know that it can hit from behind if they are close enough to lucario.
Turn Around Force Palm? You'd have to try it. It came off the top of my head.

Or if you already have a Aura Sphere semi-charged, you could immediately ASC too.

EDIT: U-tilt starts from behind Lucario, so, there's a guaranteed follow-up for you.
 
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Not especially; if I find any, I usually include them along with the rest of the numbers. And the damage numbers are never really priority because I'm more interested in the frames, especially when it comes to Lucario.
I've found that Jab 2 has weird IASA frames that only let you input Jab 1 again instead of Jab 3.

Also, FSmash seems to have some IASA frames which is great because I like to just use it to space, then when the opponent charges at me I FTilt.
 

Rysir

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Turn Around Force Palm? You'd have to try it. It came off the top of my head.

Or if you already have a Aura Sphere semi-charged, you could immediately ASC too.

EDIT: U-tilt starts from behind Lucario, so, there's a guaranteed follow-up for you.
I just toyed around with it, without lag it will require your opponent to be moving forward or I have to crouch walk back a bit then dtilt or it will never it and the back hitbox will never hit if you and your opponent are back to back *unless its a heavy character (but will miss 100% on Ike if he is back to back with you).

Also the only thing I could get a hit afterwards with is a turnaround forward tilt which is a solid 9% damage combo when at 0% but at higher % for both lucario and the opponent such as 50% it will only line up with a force palm *non grab*.

So far its unreliable but I found it can work 100% of the time if your opponent is standing at a ledge which can net you a free 2 hit combo and knock them off the stage.

Its pretty funky to use but it has a pretty good chance to snag someone who has their shield up, so take that how you will.
 
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Masonomace

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Depending how I'll be aiming for them off-stage or them about to land on-stage varies if they use their DJ or not. I aim for their feet as they're naturally falling down. I aim for their head if they're recovering from low.
 
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Rafitak

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How do you all begin your matches?

Do you all run/dash towards an opponent? Short hop Nair?

I believe I read somewhere earlier to avoid the jabs? What would I be doing instead?

I am taking another step further and becoming competitive with Smash but its very difficult to switch from friendly smash to watching emukiller and mew2kings videos

How do you all play Lucario? Hyper offensively? Defensively?

Any help is much appreciated
 

Jaxas

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How do you all begin your matches?

Do you all run/dash towards an opponent? Short hop Nair?

I believe I read somewhere earlier to avoid the jabs? What would I be doing instead?

I am taking another step further and becoming competitive with Smash but its very difficult to switch from friendly smash to watching emukiller and mew2kings videos

How do you all play Lucario? Hyper offensively? Defensively?

Any help is much appreciated
I tend to start with an advancing SH ASC as long as they're a good distance away and not fast like Little Mac or Sonic. From there I just do normal neutral game stuff, I suppose?

And I feel like Lucario can do both decently, though Defensively is WAY better while you're at higher percents (AS, ASC, and FP all get a ton more useful at defending, and you generally die less than going aggro at high %). Low percent I like switching it up a lot, playing defensive and then suddenly charging them down. I feel like which one is better overall is highly dependant on the opponent's character, however.
 

Rysir

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I play in a very spastic way with a lot of fake outs and odd movements *like jumping forward to someone while using neutral air but immediately pull back* and mix harmlessly running into my opponent's face with sudden turnaround grabs. Mostly I play extremely patiently and go berserk with sudden offense if I manage to catch someone leaving themselves open.
 

hichez50

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There is only one way to play lucario and that is the correct way. lol :p

Camping with lucario works so much better at high percents. Moves are safer on shield and FP and ASC also have more range.
 

RT

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Ding ding ding, you've all discovered the secret. At least that's the feeling I get.
 

Jaxas

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I don't believe the roll frame data. there's no way there's that much vulnerability
After seeing this frame data, I've started aiming for that portion of the roll with some of my kill moves on other characters; that's vulnerable, all right. I've netted quite a few unexpected kills today!
 

TheSMASHtyke

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You folks have any tips for implementing Side B and Down Air into my game? Looking at Side B's range was the whole reason I picked luc up in the first place, but as time goes on, I see myself using it less and less. What are some general scenarios I should be using these in?
 

Jaxas

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You folks have any tips for implementing Side B and Down Air into my game? Looking at Side B's range was the whole reason I picked luc up in the first place, but as time goes on, I see myself using it less and less. What are some general scenarios I should be using these in?
Force Palm is great at high percents (like over 100%) to keep opponents at bay. The grab is also a great kill move, though it's a bit low on range.

Down air is basically a jab replacement with less range, and something I'm adding into my game as well
 

TheSMASHtyke

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I've tried to keep opponents away with force palm, but it doesn't seem to useful for that given lucario stays in place for a pretty lengthy period of time for a single hit that's easy to sheild with big cool down lag. I've head it's useful for punishing at a distance and I've gotten a few punishes reading rolls with it. Any other general uses? Any way to help use force palm as a distancing tool?

As for Dair, what scenarios would I use it in? I've used jab so far just as a way to catch people rolling and rarely as a move to get out of my face. Would you be willing to be more specific on what you meant by using it as a jab replacement?
 

Jaxas

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I've tried to keep opponents away with force palm, but it doesn't seem to useful for that given lucario stays in place for a pretty lengthy period of time for a single hit that's easy to sheild with big cool down lag. I've head it's useful for punishing at a distance and I've gotten a few punishes reading rolls with it. Any other general uses? Any way to help use force palm as a distancing tool?

As for Dair, what scenarios would I use it in? I've used jab so far just as a way to catch people rolling and rarely as a move to get out of my face. Would you be willing to be more specific on what you meant by using it as a jab replacement?
I had the same problems with FP not too long ago; it's not really a super spammable move, but it's still good. Also, keep in mind that you can use it in a retreating Short Hop to back up after the attack hits. This lowers the effective range, but it's a good option. Not sure what % it's safe on block at (if it ever is?), though.

As for Dair, I suppose I mean a replacement for your really fast "Back Off" attack when someone's in your face. I'm having trouble using it as such though (where did the range on this move go?!), so you should probably ask someone else about this one, sorry!
 

Masonomace

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I've been facing a lot of projectile users lately, & I end up purposefully SH > RAR > RDT into their projectiles when I have a FCAS ready. The RDT slide feels very safe as you're avoiding a projectile's damage onto you or your shield's health, & gambling a chance to approach them to either deal damage, or do shield damage to their shield they put up. The slide is too good it prevents them from punishing me on-stage, & if my RDT attack connects, I punish their landing with FCAS.
 
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