Meta I can sense your aura : The Lucario metagame thread

[MythTrainerInfinity]

The next time anyone does frame data would it be possible for someone to get hit stun on FAir, Aura Sphere Charge, and UThrow, please? It would even help more at 0%, 50%, 100%, and 150%. I think we may have a guarenteed kill on Falco when he's around 40% when we're at around 150%.

UThrow to double jump UAir.

Frame 12 on the Aura Sphere charge means we can do a lot of nasty things like edge guard and grab. However, if there is enough hitstun we may have guaranteed kill setups such as USmash, FTilt and Force Palm. Lots of possibilities...

 

[Pitbuller26]

After accepting Lucario's terrible range now. I've learned that his pivots are what makes him so good and his dash dancing only helps. Since I still can't reliably pivot grab, it turns into pivot tilts which pretty much always work.

I also noticed that Lucario's normal grab seems to have better range or it could be extended hurtboxes. More often than not, Lucario can get magnet grabs (basically grabbing from a distance that normally would land). I've come to the realization that Lucario's grab game is the key to winning. All of his grabs will put foes into a terrible position and it essentially becomes a life or death mixup when we reach almost max Aura and Rage.

Side note: I can't be the only one who thinks Force Palm sounds like a shotgun when used.

 

[Rysir]

After accepting Lucario's terrible range now. I've learned that his pivots are what makes him so good and his dash dancing only helps. Since I still can't reliably pivot grab, it turns into pivot tilts which pretty much always work.

I also noticed that Lucario's normal grab seems to have better range or it could be extended hurtboxes. More often than not, Lucario can get magnet grabs (basically grabbing from a distance that normally would land). I've come to the realization that Lucario's grab game is the key to winning. All of his grabs will put foes into a terrible position and it essentially becomes a life or death mixup when we reach almost max Aura and Rage.

Side note: I can't be the only one who thinks Force Palm sounds like a shotgun when used.

Yep, thats one of the key things: Paw shotgun!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

After accepting Lucario's terrible range now. I've learned that his pivots are what makes him so good and his dash dancing only helps. Since I still can't reliably pivot grab, it turns into pivot tilts which pretty much always work.

I also noticed that Lucario's normal grab seems to have better range or it could be extended hurtboxes. More often than not, Lucario can get magnet grabs (basically grabbing from a distance that normally would land). I've come to the realization that Lucario's grab game is the key to winning. All of his grabs will put foes into a terrible position and it essentially becomes a life or death mixup when we reach almost max Aura and Rage.

Side note: I can't be the only one who thinks Force Palm sounds like a shotgun when used.

I think it sounds like one too.

Also, Lucario's pivot grab has better range than Lucina's. I tested it like 5 or more times because I couldn't believe it.

I wonder how many frames Force Palm Grab is. It feels like it is 3-5 or something because you can actually pivot grab with that.

 

[Croi]

I wonder how many frames Force Palm Grab is. It feels like it is 3-5 or something because you can actually pivot grab with that.

Side+B (Force Palm):

Spoiler: Grab

Spoiler: Whiff

"flame" hits on frame 24
"grab" hits on frame 9
shield on frame 65 if whiffed
"flame" does 8%
"grab" does 9%
"flame" has medium-low kill potential
"grab" has high kill potential

please

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

please

I meant how many frames is the grab active.

 

[Pentao]

So lately, I've been having trouble with two things:

-Chasing down projectile users (namely Link and Samus)
-Edge guarding people who recover low and vertically, rather than horizontally.

Once I have significant enough Aura, Force Palm seems to be a great tool against Link, as it beats out his Boomerang and Bombs, and Bows aren't really all that hard to avoid. However, the general cycle of projectiles encourage me to try and approach from the air, and with Link having his Up Tilt and Up Smash, it's a tough way to gain entry. I've gotten into the habit of baiting Links into using their smashes to try and cover approaches between projectiles and punishing them, but sometimes it can just feel really difficult to get past the wall of projectiles.

Typically as I edge guard, I chuck Aura Spheres to make it hell for opponents to recover, but eventually, better opponents will just air dodge through any spheres and go for a vertical recovery from under the ledge and sweet spot it. Against some opponents, I don't care too much, but characters like Samus tend to be able to f-air from the ledge and beat out most of my options. Anyone got any advice for this?

 

[Inune]

I've now played with this a lot recently and I'm telling you this is going to be HUGE. Your opponent is put to an extremely bad situation in which he is basically forced to drop down and try some desperate way to hop to the stage over Lucario or try to hit him through the charge which I doubt a lot characters can even do. Even if someone can, that's the thing we're fully prepared for. And if he fails to do this, he's forced to grab the ledge again and we happen to have a fully charged AS to fire at them for free since they don't regain their invincibility without getting hit by it.

I have been trying to incorporate this while playing on F.G. recently and it is absolutely amazing. There seems to be a chance that a really fast get-up attack can hit between ticks of ASC, but I haven't had that happen to me more than once or twice every few matches. There are some characters that can DI from the ledge and come in with an aerial to break the ASC (So far the only people who have tried this and succeeded were two good Samus players I've fought, but I'm sure there are more than that), but that's the only way through it when Lucario is at 75%+ besides rolling, which sets you up for the immediate full-charge AS to the face.

The absolute best is when a player panics and DIs toward stage because you can shield, grab, bthrow, and chuck a full-charge sphere at their face right out of the throw. If they don't react fast enough to the sphere, it'll be a kill even if they're sub-50% at the start of the whole chain.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Captain Falcon will take at least 20% just trying to get around Lucario from the ledge once we are nearing 100% or more with Aura Sphere charging with our backs facing the ledge. Not to mention they have to eat the charged Aura Sphere when they land. I bet a player with good SDI could DI around Lucario without being forced to use a recovery move, but they'd still have that landing lag.

 

[Jaxas]

Captain Falcon will take at least 20% just trying to get around Lucario from the ledge once we are nearing 100% or more with Aura Sphere charging with our backs facing the ledge. Not to mention they have to eat the charged Aura Sphere when they land. I bet a player with good SDI could DI around Lucario without being forced to use a recovery move, but they'd still have that landing lag.

By the way, where's the best place to stand while doing that? Run to the ledge -> turn -> B or a little bit inside the ledge? Because I've gotten hit by quite a few get-up attacks while right at the ledge, but if I'm further on the stage I can't catch people going to the ledge.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

By the way, where's the best place to stand while doing that? Run to the ledge -> turn -> B or a little bit inside the ledge? Because I've gotten hit by quite a few get-up attacks while right at the ledge, but if I'm further on the stage I can't catch people going to the ledge.

Hmmm, it depends, I recommend testing it on Falcon in training mode at 100%. Even when he uses the get up attack he should get hit by the Charging Sphere first.

 

[Masonomace]

I wanted to share this, but this is something I did very much in Brawl, & the other day playing my friend in-person, it felt nostalgic inputting it.

SH > RAR > B-Reverse AS is basically a fake WBAS attempt that at first on the eyes, is cautious. I'd imagine this would zone fairly well in SSB4 naturally.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Mid-high % combos!

So on Battlefield... when Lucario and Ganondorf are at 90% on the top platform UThrow to Double Jump UAir is a "combo" that will kill in training mode.

Interestingly enough against Mario according to training mode at around 60%ish... FAir "combos" into double jump fully charged Aura Sphere, which does around 20% combined. I can't seem to reliably combo from UThrow to UAir on him when he's around 50%. Sooooo it is situational, but we at least have one mid percent combo! Ohhh it works if I space and time FAir to Double Jump Aura Sphere at 100%!

In training mode when both characters are at 124% in training mode FAir to Double Jump fully charged Aura Sphere can "combo" Ganondorf!

Guys, think about if we staled UThrow and FAir a bit... 100% combos and other guaranteed kill setups on characters this wouldn't work on normally!

Now I get why they "nerfed" FAir. If it was any better Lucario might be broken because he would have many more guaranteed kill setups.

Now if we only had the C-stick... we could do Aura Sphere Charge to backwards FAir to double jump Aura Sphere...

Near the end of FAir is the part that can combo.

Edit: Works on Fox at 100%.

 

[Inune]

By the way, where's the best place to stand while doing that? Run to the ledge -> turn -> B or a little bit inside the ledge? Because I've gotten hit by quite a few get-up attacks while right at the ledge, but if I'm further on the stage I can't catch people going to the ledge.

I was trying this out with a friend the other day and it seems to me that it depends on the character. I think the best option to block get-ups if you're not sure is to position such that the lowest point of the sphere touches the grab point of the ledge. That corresponds to a roll from about the pattern on the FD stage that looks like: __/¯¯\_*_. This blocked Zelda, Sheik, Lucina, and Little Mac every time except the unlucky occasions when they hit me between ASC ticks, which I don't think you can do anything about.

I actually don't try to catch people as they're going to the ledge. I don't think ASC will usually hit people up-b'ing from below, and if they can hit the ledge without doing that, you run the risk of them fair/uair'ing straight through it depending on which character it is (you don't have much to worry about from a falcon, but for example a Samus or a Lucina can go straight through the ASC with aerials or up-B) If I'm going for this specific edgeguard, I... encourage them... to recover from below by throwing a charged sphere at them while they're coming back in and start charging another one as a deterrent and to have it slightly pre-charged when I roll to the ledge, then I use this to give them hell getting back from the ledge.

On the ASC note, I also fought an Olimar on FG yesterday for the first time (does anyone play Olimar anymore? holy crap) and noticed that ASC blocks everything his pikmin do while they're not connected to him. Side-b...fsmash... everything where the pikmin leaves his hand bounces off it (the purple pikmin actually got stuck in the sphere when he fsmashed it at me). So if you're at a decently high percent against an Olimar, you can force them to come at you just by turning around.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So if you are at near 100% (but not quite there) and you ledge trap Bowser with Aura Sphere charge Bowser can Down B you out of it if you aren't alert.

With slight shield DI away you can DSmash Rosalina if she attacks your shield with her rapid Jab and Luma isn't right there. You will kinda duck under it lol.

Oh and even with okay DI you should be able to Double Team R.O.B. if you get stuck in his Side B.

Looking at this http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ theoretically if we get someone to air dodge our NAir and you do not hit them with the later hit, force them to land, and if we fast fall we will have a frame advantage over pretty much everyone. Now that I think about it we sure do have some amazing options to avoid much landing lag if any at all.

Is it me or is part of Lucario invincible when he does part of his USmash? I tried UTilting another Lucario that somehow ducked under UTilt and USmashed me yesterday in For Glory.

Edit: I kinda wanna see if I can land the FAir to Double jump combo out of shield with someone who tries DIing out of Aura Sphere ledge trap charge.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Lucario's Up Smash is considered a crouch for a very short time, so his hurtbox was low.

 

[Jaxas]

Lucario's Up Smash is considered a crouch for a very short time, so his hurtbox was low.

Same with Dsmash, from what I've seen

 

[hichez50]

What properties does a crouch have? Does it just mean you are just lower. so some moves can't hit you, or is there something special I am not aware of.?

 

[RT]

It just means you're lower to the ground, so a good number of high hitting moves will miss you. For example, Jigglypuff and Kirby have some of the lowest crouches in the game. They can actually crouch under Mega Man's pellets and Crash Bomber.

Besides the moves people already stated, landing with ExtremeSpeed on stage also puts you in a crouch state while in recovery. It doesn't look like it, but I've actually accidentally dodged attacks doing this. This game just has weird hitboxes and hurtboxes.

 

[hichez50]

It just means you're lower to the ground, so a good number of high hitting moves will miss you. For example, Jigglypuff and Kirby have some of the lowest crouches in the game. They can actually crouch under Mega Man's pellets and Crash Bomber.

Besides the moves people already stated, landing with ExtremeSpeed on stage also puts you in a crouch state while in recovery. It doesn't look like it, but I've actually accidentally dodged attacks doing this. This game just has weird hitboxes and hurtboxes.

Yeah, it seems that every down smash has a hitbox that goes lower than the animation. It is like sakuai never wanted to see mindless planking again

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Just pulled it off against a Japanese Lucina and I was like "wtf".

Lucario's UThrow can combo into double jump sweetspot UAir at around 83-85%? vs. Marth/Lucina and can kill. I did it at 78% and she was at 81%. I can't seem to replicate it at those exact percents in training mode.

 

[Jaxas]

Just pulled it off against a Japanese Lucina and I was like "wtf".

Lucario's UThrow can combo into double jump sweetspot UAir at around 83-85%? vs. Marth/Lucina and can kill. I did it at 78% and she was at 81%. I can't seem to replicate it at those exact percents in training mode.

Training mode doesn't have staling (or more importantly in this case the freshness bonus) or rage, so that's probably why it's not working there.

 

[Masonomace]

IIRC, Training mode is exactly 1.00x damage/knockback, whereas real matches in this case, are set to 1.05x damage/knockback. So like @ Jaxas said, that can be why.

 

[RT]

Training mode is only good for practicing tech skill and possible frame traps. If you use it as combo practice, you will be very surprised later on in real matches when they don't work.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Brawl's training mode was at 1.00 as opposed to 1.05, not sure about Smash 4's.

But yeah, guaranteed kill (if they forget to DI) on two FE lords, woo. If we stale the heck out of UThrow though, just think about all of the kill setups we'll have.

 

[hichez50]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQE6hfOUxA

This seems to be real at those percents. I have been doing some testing and it is something that should be explored( could be metagame changing)

We can pretty much force only the first hit of dair to hit. It is simply a spacing thing. The spacing varies depending on the hurtbox of the character you are trying to hit. The problem with this tech. is that both you and your opponent must both be at high percent. If not it doesn't create enough distance or hitstun to reliably chain dairs together.

Also we can probally get away with it at slightly lower percent, but we risky not having frame advantage. But from my experience with the game in general with the game unexiprienced opponent will jump or just sit in shield.

Thoughts?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Experimenting with something similar...

I think I found something even more brutal. First hit of DAir (fast falled depending on the situation) to jump to footstool.

So, to land the DAir to short hop DAir like in the above post to figure out the minimum hitstun of DAir hit 1...at that point is at least... DAir landing lag + short hop + DAir and assuming that's on perfect timing... 9 + 5 + 4 = 18 frames of hitstun at the very least.

In short if you pull it off on say a grab pummeled released Little Mac or Diddy Kong... They probably will lose a stock.

Edit: Did a little more testing you might be able to pull off a DAir instead of the footstool depending on what Diddy does, but it puts him in a really bad position regardless.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Experimenting with something similar...

I think I found something even more brutal. First hit of DAir (fast falled depending on the situation) to jump to footstool.

So, to land the DAir to short hop DAir like in the above post to figure out the minimum hitstun of DAir hit 1...at that point is at least... DAir landing lag + short hop + DAir and assuming that's on perfect timing... 9 + 5 + 4 = 18 frames of hitstun at the very least.

In short if you pull it off on say a grab pummeled released Little Mac or Diddy Kong... They probably will lose a stock.

Edit: Did a little more testing you might be able to pull off a DAir instead of the footstool depending on what Diddy does, but it puts him in a really bad position regardless.

Can you get a video of this?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Can you get a video of this?

Don't have a capture card or know my way around video editing software.

I don't want to do a cell phone or laptop camera vid because the quality is too horrid for me to present.

 

[RT]

Just wait 9 more days and you can record in glorious 1080p60fps

 

[Jaxas]

Don't have a capture card or know my way around video editing software.

I don't want to do a cell phone or laptop camera vid because the quality is too horrid for me to present.

I know someone with a capture card; could you make a replay and email it to me? (I believe the replays are stored to the SD card; not positive though).

 

[Croi]

They're stored on the SD card but they're also tied to your account. It's impossible to transfer them.

I speak from painful, tear-filled experience.

 

[Jaxas]

They're stored on the SD card but they're also tied to your account. It's impossible to transfer them.

I speak from painful, tear-filled experience.

Well dang, I was hoping to be able to have everyone record their matches at our locals and just upload them all that way even if they weren't streamed.

That sucks, though - Wii U here we come!

 

[Croi]

Wii U is the same case.

I can't access the servers until release day, so I'm hoping there's at LEAST a Mario Kart thing where you can upload highlights or something.

 

[Jaxas]

Wii U is the same case.

I can't access the servers until release day, so I'm hoping there's at LEAST a Mario Kart thing where you can upload highlights or something.

More the fact that it doesn't cost over $200 to be able to capture video from a Wii U, so streaming/recording things will be much easier. The MK thing would certainly be really awesome, though!

 

[RT]

Those interested in capture card for Smash U, Newegg has them on sale.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0TP-0072-00001&ignorebbr=1

This is the one I will be using, and I would recommend. It works extremely well, just make sure you have a good computer/laptop (and a looooooot of free space) for it to capture correctly. Use promo code EMCWWWG36 for extra 10% off, and it should come out to $152.20 with free shipping. Not too bad for a fairly new capture card that can do 1080p60fps for consoles.

If you don't care about 60fps and are fine with 30fps, they also have the older Game capture HD card for sale as well. Just use same promo code to get the extra 10% off.

 

[saviorslegacy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gvngoJnJ-g
Is this known?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gvngoJnJ-g
Is this known?

Yus.

I have been pondering what practical uses it has though. It is far safer sitting below the platform, I guess.

Hmm I suppose we could do it to escape strings and shield really fast if someone is trying to approach us. With those four frames we could've Double Teammed though, hmmm...

 

[Space thing]

Yus.

I have been pondering what practical uses it has though. It is far safer sitting below the platform, I guess.

Hmm I suppose we could do it to escape strings and shield really fast if someone is trying to approach us. With those four frames we could've Double Teammed though, hmmm...

Dair on to platform->grab. Mix it up with the usual nair platform pressure. Dair to grab when they shield, and nair for everything else lol.

Or just use it as a movement mix up. It looks just like the stuff that's done in melee all the time with wavelanding onto platforms. Maybe not as good, or effective idk, but it shield be the same general idea I imaging.

 

[Jaxas]

Do we have data on how long it takes to land normally in this game? I want to say I've read everything from 1 frame to 4, but I don't know if it's actually been tested fully.
If someone could send me a link, that'd be amazing!