Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[saviorslegacy]

Dude, thanks for reminding me about Brawlhalla. I hadn't played since this summer but have gotten back into it hard. Tons of fun. Are you on Steam?

Yeah bud.... you'll never guess what my name is.....
Send me a friend invite.

Also... you will never guess my skype username either....

 

[saviorslegacy]

Dude, thanks for reminding me about Brawlhalla. I hadn't played since this summer but have gotten back into it hard. Tons of fun. Are you on Steam?

*double post plz delete

 

[exnecross]

This was hilarious.

 

[Simikins]

This was hilarious.

WUT

Noted.

 

[exnecross]

WUT

Noted.

Windbox too strong. Also, I didn't know that Sheik could combo pivot ftilt into a spike. Found that out today.

Enough webms from me now

 

[Simikins]

Windbox too strong. Also, I didn't know that Sheik could combo pivot ftilt into a spike. Found that out today.

Enough webms from me now

DUDE! Noted again. You come up with some great little tidbits

 

[Simikins]

Updated my rushed shield break thread with a detailed explanation, who it works on, and the optimal shield break punishes.
http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-shield-break-combo.422637/

 

[WondrousMoose]

This is pretty interesting; it's the name of all of Sheik's moves from an old Melee Nintendo Power Player's Guide. I've put in her Smash 4 specials, but the rest should be the same. Maybe this can go in a guide somewhere?

Weak Attacks
1-2-Multi-Hit: Slicing Blade, Cutting Blade, Piercing Blade

Strong Attacks
Upward: Bow Form
Forward: Wheel Kick
Downward: Crouching Sweep

Smash Attacks:
Upward: Razor Wing
Forward: Double Snake
Downward: Windmill

Dash Attack: Gale Form

Aerial Attacks:
Center: Falling Leaves
Front: Hatchet
Back: Flying Swallow
Up: Vortex Form
Down: Butcher Bird

Special Attacks
Standard B: Needle Storm
Forward B: Grenade
Upward B: Vanish
Downward B: Bouncing Fish

Grapples and Throw Downs
Pummel: Forearm
Front: Battering Ram
Back: Backlash
Up: Standing Crane
Down: Guillotine

 

[Joaco]

So we do Battering Ram to Hatchet and Guilllotine to Vortex Form

 

[Tri10]

Probably should have done this a while ago, but I'm going to start practicing the Sheik matchup. I'll be available later on if anyone would like to help, though it would be preferred to have someone with good WiFi.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay guys, hear me out...went to a local to practice some Lucas for Genesis but I was warming up with Sheik, ending up playing Sheik to whole time.
Reason being is that for whatever reason I keep landing Grounded Full Needles into Bouncing Fish at the ledge.
I was baiting Nair from the ledge and would go for a B-Reverse to Needles than Bouncing Fish...
First few times I thought "eh luck or something". Anyways I might be crazy thinking this actually works for some sort of mixup?!
I recorded what I was doing when I got home in the training room and vs CPU.
I'm guessing you need rage from at least 75 - 115 ish for the Needles to lift your opponent at a decent angle and your opponent has to be around 90 -110.
It seems like they're some frames that your opponent can act out after the HitStun as well ( I think )
Also you have to be pretty close in order for this to work. Something like Power Shielding a move then Needles blah blah blah...
Can anyone tell me if this can even be a possible mixup?
I've been wondering if the people I was facing were a little on the slow side or something but anyone can confirm or deny...
I MIGHT be delusional on this one...

http://www.gfycat.com/UnkemptBigAsianwaterbuffalo

 

[exnecross]

Okay guys, hear me out...went to a local to practice some Lucas for Genesis but I was warming up with Sheik, ending up playing Sheik to whole time.
Reason being is that for whatever reason I keep landing Grounded Full Needles into Bouncing Fish at the ledge.
I was baiting Nair from the ledge and would go for a B-Reverse to Needles than Bouncing Fish...
First few times I thought "eh luck or something". Anyways I might be crazy thinking this actually works for some sort of mixup?!
I recorded what I was doing when I got home in the training room and vs CPU.
I'm guessing you need rage from at least 75 - 115 ish for the Needles to lift your opponent at a decent angle and your opponent has to be around 90 -110.
It seems like they're some frames that your opponent can act out after the HitStun as well ( I think )
Also you have to be pretty close in order for this to work. Something like Power Shielding a move then Needles blah blah blah...
Can anyone tell me if this can even be a possible mixup?
I've been wondering if the people I was facing were a little on the slow side or something but anyone can confirm or deny...
I MIGHT be delusional on this one...

http://www.gfycat.com/UnkemptBigAsianwaterbuffalo

That's not a true combo, the people you were facing just didn't air dodge. You could do needles > empty short hop to bait the air dodge > bouncing fish for the KO, but that goes for anything really.

 

[Deleted member]

I know it isn't true, and know the tomahawk options but was just wondering if it was actually possible under those circumstances and if they can air dodge or not...

 

[WondrousMoose]

Okay guys, hear me out...went to a local to practice some Lucas for Genesis but I was warming up with Sheik, ending up playing Sheik to whole time.
Reason being is that for whatever reason I keep landing Grounded Full Needles into Bouncing Fish at the ledge.
I was baiting Nair from the ledge and would go for a B-Reverse to Needles than Bouncing Fish...
First few times I thought "eh luck or something". Anyways I might be crazy thinking this actually works for some sort of mixup?!
I recorded what I was doing when I got home in the training room and vs CPU.
I'm guessing you need rage from at least 75 - 115 ish for the Needles to lift your opponent at a decent angle and your opponent has to be around 90 -110.
It seems like they're some frames that your opponent can act out after the HitStun as well ( I think )
Also you have to be pretty close in order for this to work. Something like Power Shielding a move then Needles blah blah blah...
Can anyone tell me if this can even be a possible mixup?
I've been wondering if the people I was facing were a little on the slow side or something but anyone can confirm or deny...
I MIGHT be delusional on this one...

http://www.gfycat.com/UnkemptBigAsianwaterbuffalo

If you have that full hand and want to kill with it, you can always go for the full hop needles to Bouncing Fish. It's true at lower kill percents and is really flashy.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm very aware of all the other options she has, just found it very odd that I was pulling that off...

 

[WondrousMoose]

Merry Christmas, everybody! May your days be Fair-y and bright.

 

[_Tree]

Is B-air seriously called Flying Swallow...

 

[WondrousMoose]

Is B-air seriously called Flying Swallow...

Let's grab us some coconuts and see what she's made of!

 

[Reizilla]

I can see it.

 

[Joaco]

I'm so excited for genesis, I hope I do super well

 

[Joaco]

Happy new year Sheiks :3

 

[WondrousMoose]

Happy new year Sheiks :3

nice double postHappy New Year from Texas!

 

[_Tree]

*Twitches at double post*

Happy...new...year...

 

[saviorslegacy]

Happy New Year Sheiks.

 

[Joaco]

It's not my fault that nobody posts here

 

[Shaya]

I came for the Harem Dojo and realised it had been shut dowwwwwwwwn.
:<

Happy New Years Ninja-Friends.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I came for the Harem Dojo and realised it had been shut dowwwwwwwwn.
:<

Happy New Years Ninja-Friends.

Oh hey, haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while! That's an interesting avatar with Lucina's hair died blue and totally not Marth.

 

[{Kyro}]

Matchup note: vs. Wii Fit Trainer
Wii Fit Trainer's Sun Salutation will hit Sheik even when uncharged...that is, unless the Sheik is crouching. However, interestingly, Sheik can also avoid the Sun Salutation by throwing needles! Very useful for pressuring opponents into approaching.

 

[ArikadoSD]

happy new year lads

[20:22:11] Bader / Arikado: btw I think I found a new way to optimize fair > grab today
[20:22:14] Bader / Arikado: instead of fair grab
[20:22:15] Bader / Arikado: do
[20:22:24] Bader / Arikado: fair > ftilt (x amount of times) > grab
[20:22:32] Bader / Arikado: doesn't work w/ max range fair thop
[20:22:33] Bader / Arikado: tho

 

[{Kyro}]

happy new year lads

[20:22:11] Bader / Arikado: btw I think I found a new way to optimize fair > grab today
[20:22:14] Bader / Arikado: instead of fair grab
[20:22:15] Bader / Arikado: do
[20:22:24] Bader / Arikado: fair > ftilt (x amount of times) > grab
[20:22:32] Bader / Arikado: doesn't work w/ max range fair thop
[20:22:33] Bader / Arikado: tho

Depends on percents because a lot of times either (A) the opponent has enough time to attack after the ftilt, (B) they're hit with low enough knockback to land and shield, or (C) the knockback is too high for the grab to land
Especially true when the opponent DI's away, forcing a dash grab.

If I'm not mistaken any character with an aerial that comes out frame 3 or earlier can use that to escape the combo
So if it is guaranteed it's in tight ranges on certain characters.
I bet it works on Robin though

 

[ArikadoSD]

Depends on percents because a lot of times either (A) the opponent has enough time to attack after the ftilt, (B) they're hit with low enough knockback to land and shield, or (C) the knockback is too high for the grab to land
Especially true when the opponent DI's away, forcing a dash grab.

If I'm not mistaken any character with an aerial that comes out frame 3 or earlier can use that to escape the combo
So if it is guaranteed it's in tight ranges on certain characters.
I bet it works on Robin though

It should work at 0% on pretty much all characters. It definitely worked on Falco with DI (not max range fair tho). Fair > ftilt is a true combo. fair > grab is guaranteed and one of sheik's bnbs

 

[{Kyro}]

It should work at 0% on pretty much all characters. It definitely worked on Falco with DI (not max range fair tho). Fair > ftilt is a true combo. fair > grab is guaranteed and one of sheik's bnbs

I'm more focused on ftilt > grab, as I believe Sheik's grab is too slow and ftilt has too little hitstun. I haven't tested that though, so correct me if I'm wrong. For example, if I'm correct, Luigi could avoid it with an instant nair at low %s, air dodge at mid %s and jump at high %s.

 

[Simikins]

I wrote this for a thread that just got made, but our fabulous mod shut it before I could post. Our great tree is wise.

I'm a sheik main, and here are my thoughts and counters to your points.

First off thank you so much for being mature about this. Props to you. I'm not sure if we already have a thread covering this (we probably do, but I'll leave those specifics to our mod _Tree ) and if we do I like the way you've made this thread, so I'll reply anyway.


Many players, butthurt sore losers or not, do not like sheiks recovery and her needles. On streams commentators commonly say that her needles are the best projectile in the game, and that her recovery is one of the best. They are both very good, but often not in the way people think.

Vanish (sheiks UpB) doesn't actually lift her very high. It does have quite good vertical recovery, but many characters have UpBs which go higher. It is good because it can go in any direction, and has hit boxes at the start and end, as well as the invincibility and the wind box.
Because sheik disappears soon after activating vanish, the opponent has no way of knowing where she will go, meaning we can mixup landing onstage or on the ledge. During the startup sheik moves a bit in the direction inputted, but we can always mix that up too. When sheik is invisible she is invincible, so she isn't very easy to edge guard. Changing that would be a huge change and I don't think it's necessary or will ever happen.
The hit boxes and the wind box are what people hate on most.
The first hitbox is one of sheiks most used killing options, so a nerf there would really hurt the character. Because sheik becomes invincible shortly beforehand it is very hard to edge guard against. Invincibility starting slightly later would be a nerf that would be fair.
The second hitbox occurs when sheik reappears, as does the wind box.
I do not care for the second hit, and it in my opinion makes our recovery a little too safe. Obviously shield it and punish but still. The wind box is fun to utilise, as when spaced and timed correctly it can stuff recoveries that don't ledge snap. It can be shielded when sheik lands onstage, and is very punishable. If the windbox catches you shoot a projectile.
IMO if anything ditch second hitbox keep windbox.

Sheiks needles. This is where stuff gets interesting.
Sheik can control some characters (eg dk and ganon) with needles at high percents. They can be dealt with however. Staying grounded or on platforms at high percents and just shielding them works fine. Jumping over them is easy, and sheik actually has a decent amount of lag after throwing them ( I think more than grenjnja after shurikens). She's slready been nerfed there, meaning if sheik misses them she can be punished.
If the zoning character gets beaten by sheik needles then the player is just bad at zoning.

What makes needles the best projectile in the game is the movement options and combos it allows for. B reverse needles, wave bouncing, c-bouncing, INC, all give sheik some of the best movement in the game, AND SHE DOESNT EVEN THROW THE NEEDLES! Of course she has the option to and that pressures the opponent but that's a bonus.

Needles setup for one of sheiks absolute best killing options, needles to bf. Needles are amazing offstage, but onstage I use them almost exclusively for movement.
People complain about their range, but that's just grabbing at straws. It's a projectile, of course it has range. Far lass than falco lasers and others.
Nerfing needle startup, idk about that, but would totally accept a knockback nerf.


Now to BF.
Sheiks best move. Great for edge guarding, bounces off the stage, can be angled, can make the hit come out early, can be comboed out of almost all of her moves at some point, can hit up to 3 times...
Oh how I love that move.
And oh how we rely on it.
If any of those things were removed or nerfed sheik would feel it so hard. If it sent you into tumble it would be so ass. We'd probably drop a tier.
And even though people thinks it's safe on shield, it is so not.
Some characters can punish before the second hit even comes out (eg Roy UpB). If you dash and follow her then shield the second hit she can only it it 3 times so you get a punish eventually.
There are so many ways to punish it, there could be a whole thread on it.
And that's if you get hit on shield.

"Why not spot dodge?"

Overall, I think sheik is in a good place. Nerfs I mentioned could be acceptable. Remember that sheik is one of weakest (damage wise) characters in the game, and so sheik has to combo, and it takes time and dedication to learn her to her full potential.

I spent ages writing that so I'm gonna trail off now, and maybe write more later, when it's not 2am.

_Tree posted a video exactly on this topic so go check it out.

I'm getting tired so I think I'll randomly finish soon. May add more after doing more research and discussi

As you can see J wrote quite a bit and didn't want to scrap it.

 

[Simikins]

also apparently I start sounding sarcastic when tired. Well didn't mean to so rip me.

Double post double rip me.

 

[Rubiss]

Since my thread got locked and it was suggested I post it here, I'll do just that. Not sure if it'll be as effective, but it's not my place to decide. Here is what I wrote. I'm not going to edit it, so it's going to look like it was made to be a thread. I'm sure you can all adjust.

"First and foremost I want to stress that this is not meant to be a thread attacking the character nor the players who use the character. I really don't want this to turn uncivil and overly heated. This thread is not designed to bring hate to Sheik, nor am I trying to rally people together and make Sheik players feel bad for playing a good character. Please keep any discussion in this thread positive.

There are a lot of complaints about Sheik and many players are upset about how much better she is than a majority of the cast. While a lot of the complaints are likely from upset players and sore losers who don't know the match-up, nor do they fully understand Sheik, I think there are some players with legitimate concerns.

Nerfs can be seen as a touchy subject. Just look at what happened to Greninja in 1.0.4. (for those who don't know, Greninja lost an few ATs, got more startup and end lag on his Water Shurikens, had Hydropump's pushback and hitbox reduced, Fair had reduced knockback and upsmash got much more endlag and had its sour spot nerfed in damage).

Now I am sure that any rational player would not want to severely gut Sheik like Greninja, but I was wondering what the Sheik board's community thought about nerfs, more specifically what are acceptable, logical nerfs. I understand that bias will likely come into play. No one wants their main nerfed. This is simply a hypothetical.

What nerfs do you think Sheik should get, if any?

I don't main Sheik. My only knowledge of the character comes from Melee and Brawl when I casually played Zelda. However, from what I've been reading online, a lot of people seem to think that Sheik's needles and recovery are some of her biggest "issues".

I main Greninja, so I will say this right off the bat. I am biased towards Sheik. She is my worst match-up, but I will try and be objective.

• I don't like vanish. I dislike that when Sheik reappears, there is a windbox that often hinders my punishment. Sheik is able to safely recovery to the ledge and even the ground (in my experience. Could be wrong about the ground part). If I had to suggest a nerf here, I would say that vanish should not have a windbox at all.

• Needles are amazing. Almost too amazing. Sheik can charge them and can hold them. She excels at camping and from what I understand (again, this may be coming from salty, biased players) Sheik is able to needle camp a lot of cast with ease, including those who excel at zoning. To me, this is wrong. Sheik is a combo-heavy rushdown-type character. Why is she also one of the best zoning characters? Now I am not trying to project any Greninja frustration here, but considering how hard Greninja's water shurikens were nerfed (which has since been buffed, but not as much as it once was), I would suggest that Sheik's needle startup and ending could use some extra frames.I want to suggest 3 frames but I really don't know what is optimal here. Some people think that needles should have no knockback. That might be a bit much, but is it better than having less lag on the projectile itself?

• Bouncing Fish is incredible. It can not only be angled, but it also allows Sheik to bounce off of her opponent (including shields), safely at that. Some people say that bouncing fish should put Sheik into free-fall. I think that's a bit much. That would greatly nerf her recovery and make it too risky to use off-stage. That move would effectively be trash. I think bouncing fish should not bounce off shield. It should be punishable. Now you might say, "Why not spot-dodge?" and that is a legitimate counter to bouncing fish. I am on the fence about this. I just feel that bouncing fish is a bit too good. Something needs to change there.

That's pretty much all of the nerfs I personally think Sheik could stand for. They may be uninformed nerfs. They are completely based off of my own experience, which is facing the character with one that does poorly against it. My opinions are a combination of my own and what I generally read online.

What do you guys think?"

Simikins First and foremost, thank you for write up.

I did some testing of my own and discovered that needles to do in fact have more end-lag then shurikens. In fact, I'm almost confused as to why needles are even seen as a big deal on stage and even more confuses as to how a projectile based character loses to it. It may be the charging of it or the distance. Frankly speaking, needles don't seem much better than shuriken. At least shurikens can lock a character in their shield due to its rehit rate. However it does lead into a few combos, so I shouldn't downplay them too much. I will leave my post as is, but after giving it some thought and testing it myself, I don't really think needles need a nerf. Maybe the knockback? Seems to be a problem, though in my experience, the needles were less about the knockback and more about stage control.

Moving on to vanish, I agree with what you have said. Vanish is a kill option for Sheik, but it should have far less invincibility frames. Hell, Zelda only has 17 frames of intangibility and hers starts on frame 22. Sheik gets double the intangibility for a total of 34 frames and it starts on frame 19. It should not be as safe as it is. I have lost quite a few stocks due to vanish (mostly because of me air-dodging when apparently that is not a thing you can do to against Sheik after a down throw). The windbox does make Sheik rather hard to punish on the ledge. In my experience, Sheik is able to safely grab the ledge because of this. I could be wrong here, but is it even possible to punish Sheik before she grabs the ledge during the reappearance?

Finally as for bouncing fish, I really have nothing to say here. Sheik can't do much after landing it. Maybe it should have reduced horizontal range in the air (think Little Mac's side b)? I don't see why it should have any invincibility frames.

 

[{Kyro}]

What nerfs do you think Sheik should get, if any?

• I don't like vanish. I dislike that when Sheik reappears, there is a windbox that often hinders my punishment. Sheik is able to safely recovery to the ledge and even the ground (in my experience. Could be wrong about the ground part). If I had to suggest a nerf here, I would say that vanish should not have a windbox at all.

  Vanish's windbox can be shielded, making it nearly useless against a knowledgeable player. Vanish's invincibility should be nerfed instead.

• Needles are amazing. Almost too amazing. Sheik can charge them and can hold them. She excels at camping and from what I understand (again, this may be coming from salty, biased players) Sheik is able to needle camp a lot of cast with ease, including those who excel at zoning. To me, this is wrong. Sheik is a combo-heavy rushdown-type character. Why is she also one of the best zoning characters? Now I am not trying to project any Greninja frustration here, but considering how hard Greninja's water shurikens were nerfed (which has since been buffed, but not as much as it once was), I would suggest that Sheik's needle startup and ending could use some extra frames.I want to suggest 3 frames but I really don't know what is optimal here. Some people think that needles should have no knockback. That might be a bit much, but is it better than having less lag on the projectile itself?

  No knockback on needles is really extreme, considering they would just be a worse version of Fox's laser. Slower startup won't really affect anything. I think slight nerfs to startup and endlag would be reasonable.

• Bouncing Fish is incredible. It can not only be angled, but it also allows Sheik to bounce off of her opponent (including shields), safely at that. Some people say that bouncing fish should put Sheik into free-fall. I think that's a bit much. That would greatly nerf her recovery and make it too risky to use off-stage. That move would effectively be trash. I think bouncing fish should not bounce off shield. It should be punishable. Now you might say, "Why not spot-dodge?" and that is a legitimate counter to bouncing fish. I am on the fence about this. I just feel that bouncing fish is a bit too good. Something needs to change there.

  A lot of people miss the biggest reason why Bouncing Fish is good. It is safe on shield, but unless you have a platform to retreat to it puts you in an awful position to get punished. What needs to be changed is the move's incredible combo potential. If nothing could combo into bouncing fish, I'll tell you right now, you would only see it three times a match. If the startup was increased by 1-3 frames, that would make more sense.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I wrote this for a thread that just got made, but our fabulous mod shut it before I could post. Our great tree is wise.

Dude, is this a cult now? I don't know how _Tree (He is great and wise) would take that...

 

[ArikadoSD]

People overrate needles waaaay too much. They're not as broken as people think. In fact, I honestly think they're only good as a punish when you can't do anything else (for example if you're really far away to punish, or if a move is p much unpunishable like marios usmash) UNTIL high percents where it puts opponents in tumble. Even then its not insta-win in the neutral, and the neutral itself is really blown out of proportion. Sheik can win the neutral 100 times and it wont matter as much as that one time where she loses neutral and gets punished super heavily.

 

[Rubiss]

People overrate needles waaaay too much. They're not as broken as people think. In fact, I honestly think they're only good as a punish when you can't do anything else (for example if you're really far away to punish, or if a move is p much unpunishable like marios usmash) UNTIL high percents where it puts opponents in tumble. Even then its not insta-win in the neutral, and the neutral itself is really blown out of proportion. Sheik can win the neutral 100 times and it wont matter as much as that one time where she loses neutral and gets punished super heavily.

I agree. When I think about it objectively, whenever I face Sheik, needles aren't even a concern of mine. Not sure if it's because I am facing more rush-down type Sheiks or if it's because Greninja simply doesn't encourage a campy Sheik playstyle, but needles don't seem all that good. Sure, Sheik can store up a charge pretty easily and they are very fast, but is that really worth nerfing? The startup time is already worse than Greninja's Water Shurikens, but at the same time, the travel speed between both character's projectiles are not the same. Not too sure if needles really needs a nerf. If it does need a nerf, I would say it probably needs more endlag. Maybe like 3 frames. If the startup time gets any worse, then you're better off just dashing over to your opponent.

 

[{Kyro}]

The issue with needles is not that you can camp opponents out with them, it's that your opponent can't camp you (assuming no reflector). Needles beats everything else. Villager can only pocket one, they're way faster than ZSS's paralyzer, they force Mario, Pikachu, everyone to approach Sheik unless Sheik decides to approach them. When you're playing s character like Lucario or Sonic, it can make the match unbearable. Even characters that can crouch under needles have problems with them! The majority (if not all) of characters that can crouch Sheik's needles can't crawl, so it simply becomes a stalemate.

Needles are good because they beat everything else. The only thing that beats them is reflectors.