Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[ArikadoSD]

The issue with needles is not that you can camp opponents out with them, it's that your opponent can't camp you (assuming no reflector). Needles beats everything else. Villager can only pocket one, they're way faster than ZSS's paralyzer, they force Mario, Pikachu, everyone to approach Sheik unless Sheik decides to approach them. When you're playing s character like Lucario or Sonic, it can make the match unbearable. Even characters that can crouch under needles have problems with them! The majority (if not all) of characters that can crouch Sheik's needles can't crawl, so it simply becomes a stalemate.

Needles are good because they beat everything else. The only thing that beats them is reflectors.

On paper, they sound like they have everything to be a broken projectile, but in practice they really aren't. against Lucario with aura he can just shoot max charge aura sphere and it can punish needle throw. Sonic can run to shield and he'll be right in front of you, throw needles and he'll shield and punish. Pikachu can quick attack to approach just fine and doesn't really care that much about needles... etc.

needles are great don't get me wrong but they're not as great as people make them out to be. They're good at punishing landings, punishing from really far away, and as a safe get-away option at high percents only when 1 needle pops them up.

 

[{Kyro}]

On paper, they sound like they have everything to be a broken projectile, but in practice they really aren't. against Lucario with aura he can just shoot max charge aura sphere and it can punish needle throw. Sonic can run to shield and he'll be right in front of you, throw needles and he'll shield and punish. Pikachu can quick attack to approach just fine and doesn't really care that much about needles... etc.

needles are great don't get me wrong but they're not as great as people make them out to be. They're good at punishing landings, punishing from really far away, and as a safe get-away option at high percents only when 1 needle pops them up.

My point is that in all of those cases (besides Lucario, which we can debate about ) the opponent is forced to approach. You gave examples of situations where needles would be ineffective, but even so, just the simple threat of fully charged needles gives your opponent incentive to approach, and the same can be said for charging needles.

 

[Simikins]

My point is that in all of those cases (besides Lucario, which we can debate about ) the opponent is forced to approach. You gave examples of situations where needles would be ineffective, but even so, just the simple threat of fully charged needles gives your opponent incentive to approach, and the same can be said for charging needles.

Or like, shield them. Shield beats needles, as do platforms, as does retreating to the edges, as do many projectiles.
Villager Lloyd eats them, fireballs and thunder jolts go through them and is usually a bad trade, Many projectiles out range them, reflectors as you said, jumping over them is actually amazing because sheik has a lot of lag, sheik/zss downb goes over for a hard punish, etc etc.
People complain too much and don't learn how to beat them.

 

[{Kyro}]

Ok I give up lol, I still think needles are the ultimate anti-camp option but this is getting nowhere for either of us since we're not going to change our paradigms

What do you guys think/know about stale-move negation concerning Sheik?

 

[Rubiss]

Ok I give up lol, I still think needles are the ultimate anti-camp option but this is getting nowhere for either of us since we're not going to change our paradigms

What do you guys think/know about stale-move negation concerning Sheik?

If needles are the ultimate anti-camp option, would adding a few frames of startup or endlag make that not the case? From my point of view, I don't really think more lag on the move would really change it. It's already pretty slow, to start and end with anyways. Again I am probably biased because I am comparing them to Greninja's shurikens. Greninja's come out faster and is able to actually mash them out faster despite the travel time. Yet no one really complains about Greninja's ability to anti-camp. Might be in contrast to his frame data. Then again Greninja can't hold the charge of his water shurikens (one can only dream...). Why exactly do you consider them the ultimate option for beating camping? Is it the charge specifically? If so, do you think Sheik losing the ability to charge needles is too much?

As for stale moves, it is my understanding that you can think of them as being put on a queue. Your character holds their last nine moves in... we can call it a move stack. The more a move appears on the move stack, the less knockback and damage it will do. The move stack holds your last nine moves. For a move to be fresh, it must not have been one of the nine moves you have done last. For Sheik, I have heard that you generally want to mix up your combos (don't always go for downthrow to the same aerial juggles). Some people say Grenade is a great way to remove some moves from the stack, as well as needles. Vanish is a good kill move, but you know, sometimes I see Sheik players just use it as a movement option. Not sure if it's a questionable mix-up or if they are trying to unstale moves. It would be nice if a Sheik main could confirm or deny what I am saying.

 

[{Kyro}]

If needles are the ultimate anti-camp option, would adding a few frames of startup or endlag make that not the case? From my point of view, I don't really think more lag on the move would really change it. It's already pretty slow, to start and end with anyways. Again I am probably biased because I am comparing them to Greninja's shurikens. Greninja's come out faster and is able to actually mash them out faster despite the travel time. Yet no one really complains about Greninja's ability to anti-camp. Might be in contrast to his frame data. Then again Greninja can't hold the charge of his water shurikens (one can only dream...). Why exactly do you consider them the ultimate option for beating camping? Is it the charge specifically? If so, do you think Sheik losing the ability to charge needles is too much?

If we want to talk about needles let's move it to a conversation, we almost have a full page here

As for stale moves, it is my understanding that you can think of them as being put on a queue. Your character holds their last nine moves in... we can call it a move stack. The more a move appears on the move stack, the less knockback and damage it will do. The move stack holds your last nine moves. For a move to be fresh, it must not have been one of the nine moves you have done last. For Sheik, I have heard that you generally want to mix up your combos (don't always go for downthrow to the same aerial juggles). Some people say Grenade is a great way to remove some moves from the stack, as well as needles. Vanish is a good kill move, but you know, sometimes I see Sheik players just use it as a movement option. Not sure if it's a questionable mix-up or if they are trying to unstale moves. It would be nice if a Sheik main could confirm or deny what I am saying.

I was referring to the Stale-Move Negation thread that you can look at
I figured out that the position of a move in the queue affects the staleness factor, and it's known that moves don't stale unless an opponent is hit (with some exceptions). We were looking at whether staling affected hitstun at the same rate as knockback.

 

[Simikins]

Joaco did you just get sponsored for brawl??

 

[Joaco]

That's right

 

[Simikins]

That's right

Wow dude, had no idea you were the calibre of player you are!
Congratulations, good luck with your brawl resurrection!

 

[Joaco]

Thanks man! I hope I can do well

 

[Envoy_]

So there's a problem I've been experiencing for the last couple of weeks. I was wondering if anyone was having a similar issue? It deals with me trying to do an up air, but instead getting an air dodge. The problem doesn't occur every time, however it causes me to mess up the 50/50. I bought a new controller and played on different Wii U's hoping to see any changes, but to no avail. I try to make sure that my finger isn't pressing on the trigger when it happens yet the problem still persists. The only changes I have to my controls are L to special, tap jump off, rumble off, a+b smash off, and c stick to attack.

 

[Joaco]

That's super weird man. It must be you pressing R accidentally, if you push it even lightly it airdodges. Practice it at home.

 

[{Kyro}]

So there's a problem I've been experiencing for the last couple of weeks. I was wondering if anyone was having a similar issue? It deals with me trying to do an up air, but instead getting an air dodge. The problem doesn't occur every time, however it causes me to mess up the 50/50. I bought a new controller and played on different Wii U's hoping to see any changes, but to no avail. I try to make sure that my finger isn't pressing on the trigger when it happens yet the problem still persists. The only changes I have to my controls are L to special, tap jump off, rumble off, a+b smash off, and c stick to attack.

I don't have the exact same problem as you, but I can relate. I used to have an issue where when I was dash-dancing I would randomly special for no reason. Turns out I had a defective controller, but unless you got two in a row that's probably not the problem. Like Joaco said, just make sure your finger doesn't twitch.

 

[Envoy_]

Glad to hear then. I guess I'm going to go to the lab and just down throw -> up air until I can't feel my fingers haha jk. Thanks for your the quick help guys.

 

[exnecross]

Glad to hear then. I guess I'm going to go to the lab and just down throw -> up air until I can't feel my fingers haha jk. Thanks for your the quick help guys.

Hey, I found you on FG the other day. Dunno if you remember, but my tag was Richard and it was a Sheik ditto. I left because there was pretty bad delay unfortunately, but you were pretty good


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I have issues getting utilt to true combo. Most of the time they are able to jump right out, even if they are in range. For instance, ftilt > nair > utilt is something I see some top level Sheiks going for, but even for them it usually results in a failed combo. More often than not, utilt just doesn't work. And even when it does work, they can fall out of the second hit (or shield it), so even utilt itself doesn't reliably combo. PP utilt from an ftilt sounds great, but even on characters with a giant hitbox (DK) they can usually just DI away.

When do you even go for utilt? This is my biggest issue with Sheik. It's so inconsistent I don't even want to bother, when the alternative of PP ftilt or just going for fairs is way more consistent. It's a good mixup for covering get-up jumps or regular get-ups, but besides edge guarding, I dunno man. Optimal utilt extended combos seem like a once in a blue moon deal.

 

[Simikins]

Wow, I don't log on for 4 days and I get 29 alerts!?

When do you even go for utilt?

Up tilt is a good antiair, as the hit comes out frame 5 (I think).

It is best used as a combo extender, and often isn't true at all.
What makes it good is the fact that there are two hits. If they airdodge the first they get hit by the second.

I honestly don't know how viable pp utilt is, as I can't do it. Silly 3ds.

 

[{Kyro}]

The purpose of up tilt is because it reaches higher than ftilt, at mid percents it can combo out of ftilt longer than another ftilt. It's better than fair because it combos into fair as well as a bunch of other things.

 

[Envoy_]

Hey, I found you on FG the other day. Dunno if you remember, but my tag was Richard and it was a Sheik ditto. I left because there was pretty bad delay unfortunately, but you were pretty good


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I have issues getting utilt to true combo. Most of the time they are able to jump right out, even if they are in range. For instance, ftilt > nair > utilt is something I see some top level Sheiks going for, but even for them it usually results in a failed combo. More often than not, utilt just doesn't work. And even when it does work, they can fall out of the second hit (or shield it), so even utilt itself doesn't reliably combo. PP utilt from an ftilt sounds great, but even on characters with a giant hitbox (DK) they can usually just DI away.

When do you even go for utilt? This is my biggest issue with Sheik. It's so inconsistent I don't even want to bother, when the alternative of PP ftilt or just going for fairs is way more consistent. It's a good mixup for covering get-up jumps or regular get-ups, but besides edge guarding, I dunno man. Optimal utilt extended combos seem like a once in a blue moon deal.

Were you that red Sheik? If so, yeah I do remember you. I enjoyed your movement. I'm sorry that we couldn't play more. Online Sheik is kind of a rough lifestyle so I can empathize : /. I personally don't like practicing online, but my options are limited most of the time.

 

[exnecross]

Were you that red Sheik? If so, yeah I do remember you. I enjoyed your movement. I'm sorry that we couldn't play more. Online Sheik is kind of a rough lifestyle so I can empathize : /. I personally don't like practicing online, but my options are limited most of the time.

Yeah, it's rare to find a competent Sheik online. But even with like 10 frames of delay it just throws everything off for me.

The purpose of up tilt is because it reaches higher than ftilt, at mid percents it can combo out of ftilt longer than another ftilt. It's better than fair because it combos into fair as well as a bunch of other things.

I am aware of the purpose, just saying that in practice it whiffs a lot, even if it looks like they should be in range. That, and the fact that utilt itself is not even a true combo, people fall out of it all the time (it often won't even register as a combo in training mode).

 

[{Kyro}]

I am aware of the purpose, just saying that in practice it whiffs a lot, even if it looks like they should be in range. That, and the fact that utilt itself is not even a true combo, people fall out of it all the time (it often won't even register as a combo in training mode).

It is true that utilt doesn't true combo, but 99% of moves are too slow to escape it, including air dodges as far as I know.

Don't utilt a Jigglypuff though *shudders*

 

[Deleted member]

Having issues with Cloud in tournaments. His range on his fair beats Sheik's fair, his slide can be pretty unpredictable for me at times so I tend to shield a bit more, and when I'm above him it's difficult to land due to his up airs and Sheik's down air being a dive kick. Also, I noticed needle can kinda stop his projectile but a lot of the times it doesn't come out fast enough.

Any tips on this match up?

 

[TheJolteon]

Having issues with Cloud in tournaments. His range on his fair beats Sheik's fair, his slide can be pretty unpredictable for me at times so I tend to shield a bit more, and when I'm above him it's difficult to land due to his up airs and Sheik's down air being a dive kick. Also, I noticed needle can kinda stop his projectile but a lot of the times it doesn't come out fast enough.

Any tips on this match up?

GIMP YOU GOTTA GIMP!!!!!!!!!

 

[Simikins]

Having issues with Cloud in tournaments. His range on his fair beats Sheik's fair, his slide can be pretty unpredictable for me at times so I tend to shield a bit more, and when I'm above him it's difficult to land due to his up airs and Sheik's down air being a dive kick. Also, I noticed needle can kinda stop his projectile but a lot of the times it doesn't come out fast enough.

Any tips on this match up?

Cloud is difficult because we can't really camp him. His projectile is better than ours in that sense, so we have to approach.

Which is actually fine because we is sheik.
And sheik don't cur.

I like fullhop rising fair to cross him up stay safe on shield. Mix it up with some falling fairs and tomahawks. Crouching is good because he is forced to space his aerials better.

Other than that I don't know much about the matchup, hope this helps in some way though.

 

[{Kyro}]

Cloud's fair is safe on shield, which is crazy. However, his grabs are garbage so at high %s it s fine to shield a bit more as long as it's not giving up stage control. Down tilt is easy to punish when shielded. Any chance you have, hit him off stage and just spam aerials on him because even if he air dodges, it still gives you an advantage. When he has limit, the best thing to do is bait it out. None of the limits beat shield, but be careful when punishing limit side-b because it has almost zero lag.

In general, his range forces you to play with more get-in get-out approaches. Sheik's ground game works well on Cloud as well because his aerials come out slow, so things like ftilt spam work pretty well.

 

[Y2Kay]

One greninja's last remaining high level players is dropping him for sheik

I hope your happy now

 

[Simikins]

One greninja's last remaining high level players is dropping him for sheik

I hope your happy now

Oh RIP.
Who?

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh RIP.
Who?

Some, from Japan. he was really good too

 

[Simikins]

Some, from Japan. he was really good too

I'm sure he'll keep him as a secondary, and pull him out from time to time.
Only thing I don't like about top sheik's is that they don't use half our tech. WE HAVE SO MUCH TECH

Top greninja players have to use 100% of Greninja's tech to survive, so hopefully that mentality carries over and we see a stylish, godlike, needle tech master sheik.

 

[ArikadoSD]

the hax ****ing money effect

 

[Simikins]

the hax ****ing money effect

The year is 20SS...

 

[exnecross]

Having issues with Cloud in tournaments. His range on his fair beats Sheik's fair, his slide can be pretty unpredictable for me at times so I tend to shield a bit more, and when I'm above him it's difficult to land due to his up airs and Sheik's down air being a dive kick. Also, I noticed needle can kinda stop his projectile but a lot of the times it doesn't come out fast enough.

Any tips on this match up?

Cloud is all about patience. Cloud has no issues keeping Sheik out. He outranges her, autocancels, and is just as fast on ground. On top of this, he is hard to needle camp and has no problem playing the camp game (free limit charges).

Luckily, he is really easy to combo and gimp. Fthrow > fair > fair > fair > ∞ will carry him far enough for him to be unable to recover. His normal recovery is very easy to gimp, in fact he really shouldn't be able to recover at all without at least eating a bair / fair / nair off stage.

Applying pressure is a must. Don't give Cloud space but also don't approach him needlessly. If the Cloud is really stubborn about approaching and won't do anything unsafe, then it turns into a really lame keep-away game. I find that the best way to get in is tomahawking. Cloud really doesn't want to be cornered, so put him into an unfavorable situation in which he has to do something that he doesn't want to in order to reset back to neutral. Since our FH fair comes out faster than his, we can put him in "panic" situations and hope that he does something dumb.

His d-tilt is really annoying and effective, but it is punishable if you are fast enough. I try to figure out when the Cloud likes to d-tilt so that I can expect it and punish accordingly. I've noticed that most Clouds d-tilt predictably because they feel like they can get away with it more often than not.

Cloud really doesn't have a bad MU vs Sheik in my opinion. At worst it seems like 45:55. Cloud kills Sheik ridiculously early despite being so gimpable, and is well equipped to play both offensively and defensively. If you aren't making full use of Sheik's only big advantage in the MU, then Cloud is definitely favored. One screw-up and Sheik is in for a world of hurt.

 

[Shaya]

the hax ****ing money effect

I may be wrong, but Japanese tournaments may still not play for money (mix of culture / their gaming and gambling laws IIRC).

 

[FullMoon]

Top greninja players have to use 100% of Greninja's tech to survive

Not really lol

The only Greninja tech that sees frequent use is the Up-Air Spike. Otherwise it's just BnB combos and proper spacing.

 

[Comet7]

How does Void do stuff after hitting with bouncing fish before he hits the ground? Whenever I try to stuff with needles, bair, fair, wjatever, I end up triggering the hitbox of bouncing fish and get its awful landing lag.

 

[Simikins]

How does Void do stuff after hitting with bouncing fish before he hits the ground? Whenever I try to stuff with needles, bair, fair, wjatever, I end up triggering the hitbox of bouncing fish and get its awful landing lag.

If sheik does a BF at ground level or higher, after hitting with the kick you can activate the second hit and land on the ground without lag. If you don't activate the second hit sheik will kinda roll when she lands. It is best to do this is there are platforms around.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I just realized that Samus is kind of floaty. She's heavy, but her fall speed is tied with Luigi's as the sixth slowest. Not what I expected.

 

[Spark31]

Interesting combo I did at tournament today. Although likely not true, specifically the up air to down tilt, it's worth noting that after the falling up air, my opponent is facing away from me. This means no quick jabs will actually able to hit me should I use this on a character with one. If this is done correctly, it will either force your opponent into a defensive option on reaction, or they can be hit by nearly any tilt in Sheik's arsenal. If your opponent were to read this combo (assuming you'd used it on them before) or they're knowledge of the character is high enough so that they would know the options off of falling up air, it puts them into an awkward situation where they have to use a defensive option that can easily lead into another grab, turnaround f-tilt, or dash attack. I figured this was worth posting on the boards and was told to put it here.

 

[Spark31]

Wow, I don't log on for 4 days and I get 29 alerts!?


Up tilt is a good antiair, as the hit comes out frame 5 (I think).

It is best used as a combo extender, and often isn't true at all.
What makes it good is the fact that there are two hits. If they airdodge the first they get hit by the second.

I honestly don't know how viable pp utilt is, as I can't do it. Silly 3ds.

Weird. I've personally found it easier to perfect pivot on 3DS than I have on WII U. I can do it 100% consistently on 3DS. That might just be because I manually replaced my analog stick when my first one broke though. It's made out of plastic instead of that weird rubbery material. It makes playing 3DS a bit more bearable.

EDIT: Crap I double posted didn't I? Whelp, time to post a picture of a cat to make up for it. Cats fix everything on the internet, right?

 

[Simikins]

Weird. I've personally found it easier to perfect pivot on 3DS than I have on WII U. I can do it 100% consistently on 3DS. That might just be because I manually replaced my analog stick when my first one broke though. It's made out of plastic instead of that weird rubbery material. It makes playing 3DS a bit more bearable.

EDIT: Crap I double posted didn't I? Whelp, time to post a picture of a cat to make up for it. Cats fix everything on the internet, right?

I can PP consistently left, and okayish right, but I can't do tilts out of it. Thats what I meant by silly 3DS :]
The 3DS C-stick doesn't let you change what it does, it's always on smash.

Edit: I might replace mine as, as when my hands sweat even a tiny bit it gets harder to use lol. And I find PPing with a GC controller SO MUCH easier. Hardly ever get a chance to play on wii u tho so trying to polish my PPing up on 3DS.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Weird. I've personally found it easier to perfect pivot on 3DS than I have on WII U. I can do it 100% consistently on 3DS. That might just be because I manually replaced my analog stick when my first one broke though. It's made out of plastic instead of that weird rubbery material. It makes playing 3DS a bit more bearable.

EDIT: Crap I double posted didn't I? Whelp, time to post a picture of a cat to make up for it. Cats fix everything on the internet, right?

post more pictures of cats to make up for it.