Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[Joaco]

Only thing I don't like about top sheik's is that they don't use half our tech. WE HAVE SO MUCH TECH

Like what tech do we have that tops don't use?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Like what tech do we have that tops don't use?

perfect pivots and INC to name a couple

 

[Joaco]

omg really? who doesn't use that (and do well)?

 

[Reizilla]

Have you never heard of best-Sheik-in-America Void?

 

[Simikins]

Have you never heard of best-Sheik-in-America Void?

He's the only one using PP efficiently, and he doesn't use INC, C-bouncing, and stuff like that.
He is our hope currently.

 

[Joaco]

Have you never heard of best-Sheik-in-America ZeRo?

Of course

 

[exnecross]

People don't use inc because it's not worth it. It's not safe to approach with inc tilt for instance, and it doesn't really fit her play style anyway. Perfect pivots are used by most top sheiks for ftilts and utilts, but sheik is so mobile that she doesn't really need to use it in neutral. That's the same reason c-bouncing isn't used on the ground (I do it anyway because it looks cool).

Other situational tech is being used by players (mr r has been using lagless ledge get-up recently, which doesn't seem at all worth it to me since 1 wrong input = death).

 

[Spark31]

People don't use inc because it's not worth it. It's not safe to approach with inc tilt for instance, and it doesn't really fit her play style anyway. Perfect pivots are used by most top sheiks for ftilts and utilts, but sheik is so mobile that she doesn't really need to use it in neutral. That's the same reason c-bouncing isn't used on the ground (I do it anyway because it looks cool).

Other situational tech is being used by players (mr r has been using lagless ledge get-up recently, which doesn't seem at all worth it to me since 1 wrong input = death).

Interesting. Wasn't aware that sheik COULD lagless ledge getup.

 

[exnecross]

Interesting. Wasn't aware that sheik COULD lagless ledge getup.

Wall jump > immediately b-reverse > fidget cancel. It is the fastest way to get back on stage from below and you can immediately act out of it.

 

[Simikins]

Wall jump > immediately b-reverse > fidget cancel. It is the fastest way to get back on stage from below and you can immediately act out of it.

Some sheik's (like Mr. R and Vinnie) have been using BF stage roll (whatever it's called) quite a bit.
Which is good.

 

[Spark31]

Some sheik's (like Mr. R and Vinnie) have been using BF stage roll (whatever it's called) quite a bit.
Which is good.

Isn't vinnie quitting or something?

 

[Simikins]

Isn't vinnie quitting or something?

He said he was going to after G3, but I hope he doesn't. Mainly because he's letting all the bull**** from the community (which needs to stop etc) get to him.

 

[exnecross]

I feel really dumb for not knowing this, but how is Vinnie using BF out of b-reverse needle charge? Timestamp 3:29 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coI9pw0GjiU

 

[ArikadoSD]

I feel really dumb for not knowing this, but how is Vinnie using BF out of b-reverse needle charge? Timestamp 3:29 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coI9pw0GjiU

That's a needle fidgit. You can cancel aerial needle charge with any special (vanish, side b, bf, and needle itself) by airdodging then immediately doing the special before the airdodge comes out. So essentially you just hold the shield button to cancel the charge without actually airdodging and instead just use another special right after. It's pretty easy to do but the risk can be real lol.

 

[exnecross]

That's a needle fidgit. You can cancel aerial needle charge with any special (vanish, side b, bf, and needle itself) by airdodging then immediately doing the special before the airdodge comes out. So essentially you just hold the shield button to cancel the charge without actually airdodging and instead just use another special right after. It's pretty easy to do but the risk can be real lol.

I needle fidget all the time on the ground (b-reverse, c-bounce, etc), but I didn't know you could cancel the needle charge with it while in the air. I tried doing the fidget input (light shield tap) in the air and an air dodge comes out. It's gotta be way more strict or something. Will mess around with it more I guess.

edit: Nevermind, I see what you mean now. Just mash special out of air dodge. Thanks lol.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I needle fidget all the time on the ground (b-reverse, c-bounce, etc), but I didn't know you could cancel the needle charge with it while in the air. I tried doing the fidget input (light shield tap) in the air and an air dodge comes out. It's gotta be way more strict or something. Will mess around with it more I guess.

Needle fidgets are generally what needle cancel into any special is called and only that lol, we don't really call any other tech by that name.

 

[exnecross]

Needle fidgets are generally what needle cancel into any special is called and only that lol, we don't really call any other tech by that name.

I thought canceling needles without shielding (to buffer tilts out of dash or while moving / b-reversing) was considered fidgeting too.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I thought canceling needles without shielding (to buffer tilts out of dash or while moving / b-reversing) was considered fidgeting too.

Pretty sure that's just called INC tho

 

[exnecross]

Pretty sure that's just called INC tho

Well, ok then. For some reason I was under the impression that the terms overlapped somewhat, but it's been awhile since I watched the video.

 

[Wasserwipf]

Well, ok then. For some reason I was under the impression that the terms overlapped somewhat, but it's been awhile since I watched the video.

Well basicaly Fidgeting was ment to be the tech in the air, named after how it looks - kinda. It is startet AFTER the needle startup animation is finished and during the "charge" animation. INC on the other hand is basicly what we call when we cancel a needle charge instantly after executing it, namely in the first 3 (i guess) frames of the Startup animation (not the charge) and follow up with an attack (not necessary iirc). So pretty much:
Needle fidget: In the air, during the charge animation, cancelled into a special
INC: Grounded, during the startup aniamtion of needle charge, cancel into anything (iirc)
Then again, people started using the term fidget(ing) for a normal needle cancel (since "Needle Canceling" is the name of another (melee) tech to avoid confusion). However, fidget is ALWAYS during the charge animation.

Hope this helps understanding the difference a bit.

 

[Spark31]

I found this video by Kibzu today. Has some really useful combo information for some MUs.

 

[exnecross]

Something that I have been toying around with..

If you SH weak-hit nair (rising) Charizard after fthrow at 0-5-ish%, it puts you into a perfect position to utilt. The nair is a true combo but the utilt is not. However, if they air dodge after the nair then you are in a position to punish them however you like. If they do not air dodge then you can perform some long and painful combos off of the utilt. If they jump after the nair, then they escape the combo and you're kinda ****ed. If you notice they tend to air dodge a lot, it is a mix-up that I think could be worth considering. I don't know if it works on other heavies, haven't tried it.

 

[Skyfox2000]

Hello fellow Sheik mains. Sheik is one of my mains. Some say she's my best character. I kinda stopped playing Smash 4 and I recently started playing it alot more now. I am having mostly trouble getting some "Neddle Setup's" into my playstyle and just having trouble with setting up combos in general. Would any care to give me some advice?

 

[exnecross]

Hello fellow Sheik mains. Sheik is one of my mains. Some say she's my best character. I kinda stopped playing Smash 4 and I recently started playing it alot more now. I am having mostly trouble getting some "Neddle Setup's" into my playstyle and just having trouble with setting up combos in general. Would any care to give me some advice?

There is a sticky for asking questions and looking for advice, so you should ask in the appropriate thread. As for full hop needles, simply bind special to a shield trigger or Z so you can input the special button immediately after a jump.

 

[Spark31]

Interesting thing I haven't really seen too many Sheik's talking about. So, needles clearly can disrupt people offstage when they are at ledge-level. However, I haven't really seen anyone talking about sh-needles to disrupt recoveries at a downward angle below the ledge. Although not SUPER useful, I've gimped a ton of characters with slow recoveries in this method. At my last tournament I went to I gimped a Greninja with it. I can consistently gimp limit break recovery cloud with it. It's super useful and I haven't really seen any Sheik players use it.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Interesting thing I haven't really seen too many Sheik's talking about. So, needles clearly can disrupt people offstage when they are at ledge-level. However, I haven't really seen anyone talking about sh-needles to disrupt recoveries at a downward angle below the ledge. Although not SUPER useful, I've gimped a ton of characters with slow recoveries in this method. At my last tournament I went to I gimped a Greninja with it. I can consistently gimp limit break recovery cloud with it. It's super useful and I haven't really seen any Sheik players use it.

Eh, it's a tough angle. Beyond that, the needles are travelling forward opposite the direction that the opponent probably is, so you have to be really precise. A full hand of needles is more valuable than that.

 

[Spark31]

Eh, it's a tough angle. Beyond that, the needles are travelling forward opposite the direction that the opponent probably is, so you have to be really precise. A full hand of needles is more valuable than that.

As I said, works well for slower recoveries. Normally I would fully agree with you, but I've gimped far to many people with it than I care to count. When it comes to being precise, if you can land a horizontal needle first, it sets up really well into aerial needle gimps, assuming they don't air dodge.

EDIT: Also, some crap I've only seen zero do that no one else has, down throw -> bouncing fish to kill and f-throw -> up air -> vanish. Really only seen ZeRo do it, but wanted to know you guys thoughts on it.

 

[exnecross]

As for landing needles to gimp below stage level, you can simply cover a lot of area with full hop backwards-momentum forward facing needles. Needles really aren't that great for gimping though, it would almost always be wiser to keep them and try to set up a needles > BF combo.

down throw -> bouncing fish to kill and f-throw -> up air -> vanish.

For the former he is predicting them to DI inwards. For the latter he is simply baiting out an air dodge.

 

[Spark31]

As for landing needles to gimp below stage level, you can simply cover a lot of area with full hop backwards-momentum forward facing needles. Needles really aren't that great for gimping though, it would almost always be wiser to keep them and try to set up a needles > BF combo.

For the former he is predicting them to DI inwards. For the latter he is simply baiting out an air dodge.

I'm aware of both of these requirements. I'm just saying I don't see any Sheik players really using it. Also, the backwards momentum forward facing needles you're referring to is c-bounced needles correct? Or am I to assume you mean wavebounced needles? I can assume either would work, but which do you mean?

 

[exnecross]

I'm aware of both of these requirements. I'm just saying I don't see any Sheik players really using it.

Mr R does it. I recall watching the uair > vanish thing recently, was it Genesis or some video? It seems really inconsistent because your opponent can DI pretty much anywhere and mess it up. Once you uair you are committed to that direction, and your opponent will be drifting away in some direction so landing vanish seems very unlikely, especially considering most people know to jump away from Sheik rather than air dodge, which would mess it up completely.

Also, the backwards momentum forward facing needles you're referring to is c-bounced needles correct? Or am I to assume you mean wavebounced needles? I can assume either would work, but which do you mean?

The way I do it is simply press c-stick opposite to the direction I'm going + the R trigger simultaneously (within 2 frames of eachother). I'm aware of there being a more difficult way of achieving a similar effect, but I don't use that.

 

[{Kyro}]

Was anyone else surprised by how well Dabuz did at Genesis?

 

[HoSmash4]

Was anyone else surprised by how well Dabuz did at Genesis?

Not at all. He has been placing top 3 at pretty much every national.

 

[Spark31]

Was anyone else surprised by how well Dabuz did at Genesis?

I'm honestly much more impressed by how well void and FOW did.

 

[{Kyro}]

I'm honestly much more impressed by how well void and FOW did.

True, that was nice to see

 

[WondrousMoose]

Howdy, everyone! I'm a changed man.

 

[Simikins]

Howdy, everyone! I'm a changed man.

Why hello moose.
Are you not wondrous anymore? Hmmmm

I guess it's better to not tell everyone about biting his sister...

 

[ArikadoSD]

good choice moose :]

finally found ur way.

 

[exnecross]

How does the KO punch detection work exactly? I feel like this c-bounce screwed up the collision detection, as it appears to go straight through me. Does c-bouncing briefly misplace Sheik's hurtbox?

 

[Spark31]

How does the KO punch detection work exactly? I feel like this c-bounce screwed up the collision detection, as it appears to go straight through me. Does c-bouncing briefly misplace Sheik's hurtbox?

I think the needle charge start animation probably moves the hurtbox backward, and then for the duration of the charge animation to charge release the hurt box is misplaced. If you pause at a specific frame where the punch would have actually hit Sheik, hut model is out of reach of the KO punch. This is probably why it didn't hit,

 

[exnecross]

I think the needle charge start animation probably moves the hurtbox backward, and then for the duration of the charge animation to charge release the hurt box is misplaced. If you pause at a specific frame where the punch would have actually hit Sheik, hut model is out of reach of the KO punch. This is probably why it didn't hit,

Yeah, you're right. It seems that KO Punch just barely missed Sheik's leg. Oh well, at least it made for a pretty cool webm.