Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

Is d-tilt a viable move? I love it and use it as a combo starter all the time, but then again I never play with tourney-caliber players. I feel like it has too much startup to be useful in a real competitive match... how useful is it?

It's more useful than you think. You can Crouch Cancel pretty easily into a D-tilt, and depending on which character you're going against, it can be a good combo starter. I has the most reach of any of Ganon's moves, so it has good zoning capabilities. There's not too much negative about it. Albeit a downward f-tilt comes out faster, it doesn't reach as far. Try experimenting with D-tilt to see what you can do afterwards. I find doing a Dair after a Dtilt to be very satisfying.

 

[-ACE-]

Dtilt has insane cooldown time making it easily punishable and hard to combo after. It also doesn't reach much farther than ftilt.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Yo PseudoTurtle, I played Tomber in a bunch of friendlies. All that dude really has is well placed wobbles. I think he took me the first 2 games from only wobbles, but I decided to stop getting grabbed and proceeded to take each game that followed, lol. KILL NANA. Full hop dair > double jump dair will at least poke one of their shields, then you've got 'em separated. Combo to death. Don't get too distracted killing Nana, however, because he'll be waiting for an opening to do anything to you that will give nana time to catch up and start a wobble. Don't get close enough in front of the climbers that will give them the space to hit you with their ice sh**, cuz that will likely lead to a wobble.

Platforms are your friend. ICs movement is severely impaired in the air.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Dtilt has insane cooldown time making it easily punishable and hard to combo after. It also doesn't reach much farther than ftilt.

There are situations where dtilt can be very useful, in my opinion. However, you have to know your opponent...just like in everything else. Let's say you hit their shield with a highly spaced fair to dtilt (jab wouldn't reach from this distance anyway). If they try to shield grab, it's gonna miss cuz you'll be ducking low and far enough that you'll clip their toes (ftilt would get you grabbed here, if it's Marth we're talking about). If they don't grab, the shield stun is usually long enough that they would mess up a wavedash out of shield (which, of course, can't be all that reliable, but I saw people mess it up a lot) and you've got them on the ropes, still in their shield. Read, and punish. If they try to jump out of shield with an aerial and actually hit you, then you're already crouch canceling (if at low %). You get a free hit. I'd stick with jab > ftilt, then read their next move and finish 'em.

Like I said, it is very situational and you have to know what your opponents options are. Correct me if you see any loop holes!

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I love dtilt. Use it as a spacing tool, if used properly, you won't get punished, even if it doesn't connect- it keeps their spacing honest. At low percents, if you jab and they di away (so you can't go for the grab), dtilt is a great follow up. And dtilt vs marth after a CC'd areal is great because 99% of the time, you get a uair out of it.

Yea Paul, tomber basically just went for the grab 100% of the time. Unfortunately, I only play against trail's ICs and he doesn't play like a normal IC player does lol, he's just a good player in general, with really well spaced areals and dsmashes, so I had matchup johns. I adapted well near the end of the second match by purposely missing a fair and stomping/jabbing when tomber went for the grab, but it was too late at that point. Next time!

It was great being able to meet you and get some games in tho and I hope to do it again sometime!

 

[Meccs]

Alright thanks for the info. I'll be going (assuming I can get off of work) to Smashachusetts so I've got about a month to get good. I'm decent enough, like the last tourney I went to, about a year ago since the CT scene is pretty weak, I did pretty well in Melee (went Ganon every match). Lost a game 3 match I should've won to keep me out of the finals, which was disappointing. That was a primarily-brawl tourney tho so only about 10 people playing Melee but I did 100x better than I did at Brawl, heh.
However, I'm not well versed in ATs. I kind of know how to wavedash, like I can do a good one every other time or so, getting better. I'm trying to get better at l-cancelling. I can do it with F-Air basically everytime, but I'm having a little trouble with the D-Air timing.
I watch the high level of play and am just amazed by how fast they're able to move. So I guess my first course of action should be mastering ground/platform techs?

 

[-ACE-]

There are situations where dtilt can be very useful, in my opinion. However, you have to know your opponent...just like in everything else. Let's say you hit their shield with a highly spaced fair to dtilt (jab wouldn't reach from this distance anyway). If they try to shield grab, it's gonna miss cuz you'll be ducking low and far enough that you'll clip their toes (ftilt would get you grabbed here, if it's Marth we're talking about). If they don't grab, the shield stun is usually long enough that they would mess up a wavedash out of shield (which, of course, can't be all that reliable, but I saw people mess it up a lot) and you've got them on the ropes, still in their shield. Read, and punish. If they try to jump out of shield with an aerial and actually hit you, then you're already crouch canceling (if at low %). You get a free hit. I'd stick with jab > ftilt, then read their next move and finish 'em.

Like I said, it is very situational and you have to know what your opponents options are. Correct me if you see any loop holes!

If you get in the habit of doing a dtilt after aerials and they read it, i'm pretty sure they get a free punish with an aerial. And the cooldown is just ridiculous. Against falcon using a dtilt gives him enough time to be right in your face pressuring you (that is, if he can't punish it already). Yeah it super situational, I still like dtilt for a lot of things but when I see someone say only good things about it, and I've never seen them post here, I figure I'd provide a quick reminder of it's major weaknesses.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Here's some footage from last month of my Ganon vs one of Texas's top Falco's, Jake13. He won majority, but I got up to speed and I'd say this is close to my peak. Day 2-3 of Evo, I'd say, was my best play...none recorded though :/ I don't know what happened, but somehow, my Ganon only lost about 3 friendlies total after I reached top gear. Felt pretty invulnerable! Gotta work on the Link matchup. If I remember right, J666 took me 2/3 matches (last stock).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-K7biQX2FE8#t=2769s

 

[Divinokage]

I love dtilt. Use it as a spacing tool, if used properly, you won't get punished, even if it doesn't connect- it keeps their spacing honest. At low percents, if you jab and they di away (so you can't go for the grab), dtilt is a great follow up. And dtilt vs marth after a CC'd areal is great because 99% of the time, you get a uair out of it.

Yea Paul, tomber basically just went for the grab 100% of the time. Unfortunately, I only play against trail's ICs and he doesn't play like a normal IC player does lol, he's just a good player in general, with really well spaced areals and dsmashes, so I had matchup johns. I adapted well near the end of the second match by purposely missing a fair and stomping/jabbing when tomber went for the grab, but it was too late at that point. Next time!

It was great being able to meet you and get some games in tho and I hope to do it again sometime!

Jab to downtilt is a true combo if you do it right, it's not just a follow up. I normally use it after i'm able to hit something on shield but then if all my other pokes are out of range, i can use downtilt right after to keep them in shield or trying to bait out an action in between the 2 moves. So even if they try to do anything OOS after dtilt, you should be safe as dtilt would hit the tip of the feet, anything closer isnt safe.

Also Pawls, it doesn't make sense to do Fair to Dtilt because there's no spacing after Fair on shield where dtilt would be nice to use, you are already at a disavantage if you hit Fair on shield. If you are too close you'll get grabbed. If you space it then dtilt you highly risk getting hit because of the low start up and they'll have time to do anything to you after that.

I've seen that Ftilt on shield to dtilt could be an interesting trap where when you hit ftilt on shield, they'll think you'll be out of range because it pushes you back a little bit after Ftilt so they may just stand there and do nothing (because they'll think you'll move or jump), that's where downtilt at the tip of the feet would hit.

 

[Tomber]

PseudoTurtle/Pawl: Man, you guys are ridiculous.

Tomber is the best IC in the Netherlands. I was up, but then he wobbled me all four stocks. Gay. And then I lost to a falco (surprise surprise) who ended up beating scar. In the end, I was dissatisfied with my performance, but the two people who did beat me were the two to make it out of my pool, so I guess there's no shame in losing to the two best.

1) I'm from Denmark, not the Netherlands. Common mistake.
2) Ron, the Falco you're talking about, didn't make it out of pools. Larry (DEHF) did.
3) You're johning about wobbling. Silly you,

Yo PseudoTurtle, I played Tomber in a bunch of friendlies. All that dude really has is well placed wobbles. I think he took me the first 2 games from only wobbles, but I decided to stop getting grabbed and proceeded to take each game that followed, lol.

Come on, dude, this isn't true. And even if it was true, you only played me in friendlies. PseudoTurtle played me in tournament. Two very different things.

No hate, as you both were pretty cool when I talked to you IIRC, but this is just silly. I'm out.

 

[Renth]

Wobbling is for talentless hacks.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

PseudoTurtle/Pawl: Man, you guys are ridiculous.

1) I'm from Denmark, not the Netherlands. Common mistake.
2) Ron, the Falco you're talking about, didn't make it out of pools. Larry (DEHF) did.
3) You're johning about wobbling. Silly you,


Come on, dude, this isn't true. And even if it was true, you only played me in friendlies. PseudoTurtle played me in tournament. Two very different things.

No hate, as you both were pretty cool when I talked to you IIRC, but this is just silly. I'm out.

No hate for sure, you definitely took my other characters handily, but I don't recall you beating my ganon after the first couple, I thought. I know it's not easy to get the grabs with ICs, so I don'tmind wobbling. BUT, I've played Wobbles a good amount, even in tourney once, so there are certain things I didn't see you doing. I recognize the wobble baiting, which is whyI clungto my platforms.

 

[stelzig]

Every day. I see people mistaking danes for dutchies. God damn.

Yeah tomber's general play is not on par with his wobbling (which is imo better than anyone elses), but that doesn't mean he's absolutely horrible otherwise

 

[Divinokage]

Lying about your prowesses isn't cool guys. Cmon...

 

[-ACE-]

Joe, that falco is my buddy Cam. I'v'e played against him tons! He's a cool azz muh fugga.

Renth, lmao. If all IC's wobbled their azz off since day 1 we'd all be hard to grab by now. Wobbles did a lot more than just wobble his way to the top. Sure it can be lame at times, but I always say keep it legal.

Kage, I didn't lose a single friendly at EVO.

edit: Ron=Cam (Cam'ron)

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle/Pawl: Man, you guys are ridiculous.

1) I'm from Denmark, not the Netherlands. Common mistake.
2) Ron, the Falco you're talking about, didn't make it out of pools. Larry (DEHF) did.
3) You're johning about wobbling. Silly you

1) I apologize, I must've been given false information.
2) ah, that makes more sense. My boy gooeybanana told me Ron made it out of pools, but dehf would definitely be more probable.
3) when did I john about wobbling? Dude, you wobbled at a tournament where wobbling was legal, you beat me fair and square. I still stand by what I said that wobbling is pretty lame tho. The only john that I had and admitted to having was lack of ic matchup due to trails ics not playing like today's typical ics- still say his little dudes are mad solid. Gg's man, never meant any hate.

Edit: if wobbling should be kept legal, it should only be vs certain characters or something. Ganon is too easy to grab.

And kage Idk what you're talking about lol I have never lied about how good/bad I am at this game

 

[Divinokage]

Joe, that falco is my buddy Cam. I'v'e played against him tons! He's a cool *** muh fugga.

Renth, lmao. If all IC's wobbled their *** off since day 1 we'd all be hard to grab by now. Wobbles did a lot more than just wobble his way to the top. Sure it can be lame at times, but I always say keep it legal.

Kage, I didn't lose a single friendly at EVO.

edit: Ron=Cam (Cam'ron)

Lol neither did I. XD

1) I apologize, I must've been given false information.
2) ah, that makes more sense. My boy gooeybanana told me Ron made it out of pools, but dehf would definitely be more probable.
3) when did I john about wobbling? Dude, you wobbled at a tournament where wobbling was legal, you beat me fair and square. I still stand by what I said that wobbling is pretty lame tho. The only john that I had and admitted to having was lack of ic matchup due to trails ics not playing like today's typical ics- still say his little dudes are mad solid. Gg's man, never meant any hate.

Edit: if wobbling should be kept legal, it should only be vs certain characters or something. Ganon is too easy to grab.

And kage Idk what you're talking about lol I have never lied about how good/bad I am at this game

That is a little odd, if anything the old school techs should give you an even better base or fundamentals of how to beat ICs in a simple manner. Perhaps your speed of execution isn't quite there yet and maybe it's also hard for you to determine what the player himself is looking for when you play him?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Well, actually, it would be that way with any other character, but tomber used some weird desyncs and stuff that trail does not. Overall, I think trail is better. But he only does very specific desync tricks, like camping with blizzards and ice blocks. He doesn't even really chain grab at all, so I wasn't ready to fight an IC player who went for the grab all the time (including shield grabs).

I think I'm ok at reading my opponent, and even execution (this, tho, is a very recent skill), but I'm still at a beginner level, so it took me a while to adapt. Don't count tomber out tho, he did beat scar, lame tactics or not! Next time, I'll be ready!

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Alright thanks for the info. I'll be going (assuming I can get off of work) to Smashachusetts so I've got about a month to get good. I'm decent enough, like the last tourney I went to, about a year ago since the CT scene is pretty weak, I did pretty well in Melee (went Ganon every match). Lost a game 3 match I should've won to keep me out of the finals, which was disappointing. That was a primarily-brawl tourney tho so only about 10 people playing Melee but I did 100x better than I did at Brawl, heh.
However, I'm not well versed in ATs. I kind of know how to wavedash, like I can do a good one every other time or so, getting better. I'm trying to get better at l-cancelling. I can do it with F-Air basically everytime, but I'm having a little trouble with the D-Air timing.
I watch the high level of play and am just amazed by how fast they're able to move. So I guess my first course of action should be mastering ground/platform techs?

There's a thread here by renth that tells you about wavelanding, I really wish I had known about it before I started playing and being technical. Check it out though. Also, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDs-lPmIUec

and read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...a-ganondorf-guide-by-tt-ver-1-21-01-00.59396/

 

[-ACE-]

It's gotta be hard to judge tomber off a few sets... in comparison to trail... you've seen everything he has to offer, his off days, his on days, etc.

Lol CeeNL practice tech skill whenever no one is around, make your ganon more mobile and thinking about how to properly use platforms for techchasing, zoning, stage control, etc. But above all try to just play people better than you before the tourney.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Who's lying? Anyway, 3rd in pools blows. I lost matches the first day, learned, grew, and applied it to friendlies on day 2 and 3. Because I was posting from my phone, I couldn't finish what I was trying to type out for ya Tomber. My point was to make a relevant post to a fellow Ganon main having IC frustrations. I'm not saying I'd f*** you up in tournament, and I agree it's entirely different. You'd have stage selection in that scenario, which could give you some powerful tools (FD!!! *gasp*). That setup kept giving me Yoshi's. MM at the next national we meet! Craziest thing I remember Wobbles hitting me with was on Yoshi's, actually. He did this shiz where he grabbed me on a lower platform with one climber, and threw me into the other climber who already had a fully charged up-smash waiting, and before he even started the whole thing, I swear he pointed in the direction I was about to die before I even knew I was about to be grabbed, lol. The guy is a BEAST.

Also Pawls, it doesn't make sense to do Fair to Dtilt because there's no spacing after Fair on shield where dtilt would be nice to use, you are already at a disavantage if you hit Fair on shield. If you are too close you'll get grabbed. If you space it then dtilt you highly risk getting hit because of the low start up and they'll have time to do anything to you after that.

You're sure? Even if you hit with the very end of the Fair at the bottom of the shield with no fast fall and go straight into crouch? That doesn't sound right, but I have been out of the tech game loop for a while. Maybe I got lucky. I'll test some stuff. I don't use it religiously or anything, just trying to use new variety. I'm all amp'ed up about finding new s*** to do with Ganon lately.

 

[Divinokage]

Hehe, you're not the only one.. =)

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I love dtilt. Use it as a spacing tool, if used properly, you won't get punished, even if it doesn't connect- it keeps their spacing honest. At low percents, if you jab and they di away (so you can't go for the grab), dtilt is a great follow up. And dtilt vs marth after a CC'd areal is great because 99% of the time, you get a uair out of it.

Yea Paul, tomber basically just went for the grab 100% of the time. Unfortunately, I only play against trail's ICs and he doesn't play like a normal IC player does lol, he's just a good player in general, with really well spaced areals and dsmashes, so I had matchup johns. I adapted well near the end of the second match by purposely missing a fair and stomping/jabbing when tomber went for the grab, but it was too late at that point. Next time!

It was great being able to meet you and get some games in tho and I hope to do it again sometime!

I'd **** on all of u with ganon, **** the ics

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'd **** on all of u with ganon, **** the ics

I almost had you on that money match troll, come to wd Wednesday and I'll money match again for ganon dittos. Unless your falcon wants to get **** on again

But for real, jcslick and I'll be at wavedash Wednesday next week, you should totally come

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I moved to south bend. Come to the tourney out here this weekend. We'll do some partying

 

[spider_sense]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mumUaUEfl4 Newest Tipman videos.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Duuude when this weekend cuz I gotta work both Saturday and Sunday and I just took a week off for evo haha

 

[Bl@ckChris]

sorry about training ron vs ganon pseudo. he's one of the greensboro crew under PP. $mike probably got him some pointers to beat scar too. and also cam/ron/camron/whatever he calls himself is just plain good now lol.

ganon's sorta fun. but i wouldn't go around dtilting shields anymore. i would aerial oos that thing so fast it's not even funny lol.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya it's pretty hard but only Hbox can probably defeat any Ganon consistently.. The other Puffs would get punched in the face. With that said, I wonder if I was at Hbox's level, would I be able to defeat him a lot more? To me it seems likely but everything in your game has to be air tight.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's funny because i think the spacing game might even be in our favor, because i think we can get under her better than she can come down on us. however, the punishment game is tilted so heavily in her favor between her chains and her edgeguarding, that saying that we have the overall advantage ins the matchup is...difficult.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Here's some matches that I had playing as my Ganon from a fest on Thursday. Let me know what I did right and what I did wrong. I know I definitely need improvement. Also, sorry that the second video is really blurry. My phone wasn't focusing properly while recording.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLx2Ns_2LTXUk-8t1hamffdrbkgg9oBd6b

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

The Falco that Pseudo is referring to is Ronaroni, or Ron, a Falco from Georgia. I'm pretty sure Cam didn't go to EVO, but could be wrong.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well...cam went, and lost to DEHF to not make it out of pools, and i know he was going by ron so....i figured he was talking about cam.

edit: he also beat scar. so like...yeah i'd be surprised if it wasn't him. *shrug*

 

[-ACE-]

Pretty sure it was Cam.

So, I can see a lot of people don't view puff as a tough matchup. Who is Ganon's 4th hardest matchup after Sheik/Fox and Falco? I'm interested to hear what you guys say.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Pretty sure it was Cam.

So, I can see a lot of people don't view puff as a tough matchup. Who is Ganon's 4th hardest matchup after Sheik/Fox and Falco? I'm interested to hear what you guys say.

I think Captain Falcon.

Ganon's Matchups go like this for me personally.:

Impossible: CGing Sheik, Camping Falco
Extremely Difficult: Patient Falco, Non-CGing Sheik, Camping Fox, Patient Falcon
Difficult: Aggressive Falco, Captain Falcon, Patient Fox, Aggressive Fox, Aggressive Marth
Depends on how well I'm playing: Patient Marth, Patient Puff, Peach, ICs, Doc/Mario
Easy: Aggressive Puff, anyone else not listed.

Just for clarification:

Camping Space Animal is one who just runs away shooting lasers (think M2K vs Hbox), forcing me to approach and then punishing my approaches
Patient Space Animal is one who uses their superior mobility as well as their laser game to try and put me in bad situations and then punish, think Mango vs Armada at Evo, or Dr. Peepee
Aggressive Space Animal is one who will generally forgo lasers in favour of just rushing in and trying to beat me down, think Mango vs Armada any time other than Evo.

CGing vs Non-CGing Sheik should be pretty clear.

Patient Falcon Dash Dances and tries to bait me into bad positions and punish, while Aggressive Falcon just goes straight in and attacks.

Patient Puff is Hbox style, Aggressive Puff is Mango style.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Fox and falco are my worst, more so fox. I played strycnine (or however he spells it) at evo and learned a TON about the falco matchup, it was like a switch just flicked on... I wouldn't say I'm comfortable with the matchup yet, but definitely starting to learn it. Fox is still troublesome...

Sheik is tough, but manageable for me because of her predictable play style (dash dance, camp, grab/dash attack). Bair into tilt is good if you're in the air, if you're on the ground, low angled ftilt is pretty safe and covers her ground game pretty well.

After that I might say puff. Spacing has to be on point and bair is essential. If you're lucky, you'll get a puff player who doesn't know the matchup and you can just stomp the **** out of her when she tries to utilt.

 

[Divinokage]

I believe Falcon for sure is harder after that then Peach/Puff.

Edit: Pro tip if its harder for you to deal with certain styles then it usually means your own style isn't adaptive enough. A matchup usually covers both aggressive and defensive styles because the good players are able to switch in between them at every moment if needed. There's always a counter to everything.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i'm not sure which is actually harder, marth or falcon. but that's probably still due to the trauma of PP's marth from back when i still mained this character lol.

until the marth deals with grabs in a way that doesn't stop until you're dead (a la PP) it's not really all that bad lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Puff's aerial mobility is just nuts. If puff is patient, eventually Ganon will fall for the baits... spacing is so crucial and you have to get fairly hard reads to keep up. It's pretty easy to avoid Ganon's aerials (especially fair/dair lol) if the puff has good spacing. Rest combos are rough too (out of uair, utilt, platform techases, etc). Ganon is such a huge target.

Kage my style probably isn't adaptive enough, last time I played a decent Puff was Idea at pound 5 lol (ages ago). Lost 2-1 both of his victories well as mine were 1-stock low%. I just didn't quite get enough reads.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

A marth who
A) can get grabs
B) can continue to **** you up after the grab

Is a hard marth to play against. I have more trouble vs ripples marth than darts because I think that ripple has the better grab game (maybe just vs ganon). Dart is the better player, with smarter recoveries, etc but one grab and I'm toast