Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

It's pretty much the one thing Ganon can't do **** against.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Falco
4. Puff
5. Marth
6. Peach
7. Falcon
8. IC's
9. Samus

Those are the toughest imo at this point, although let me just say 5-7 are the hardest to distinguish. I could almost put them tied.8 and 9 are super close too.

 

[-ACE-]

Accidental post. But since I can't delete, might as well say something.

Fukc smashboards.

 

[Divinokage]

It's pretty much the one thing Ganon can't do **** against.

1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Falco
4. Puff
5. Marth
6. Peach
7. Falcon
8. IC's
9. Samus

Those are the toughest imo at this point, although let me just say 5-7 are the hardest to distinguish. I could almost put them tied.8 and 9 are super close too.

Really? You think so? With my level ups, I'm back to thinking Marth vs Ganon is even. Falcon is definitely harder than Peach 6-4 matchup. Peach vs Ganon is probably 55-45. Samus is also pretty even, I think I have an answer now to camping but I have to try it out first vs the best Samus. =P ICs.. well, Ganon advantage no?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the better i get, the more i agree with kage.

funny how that works.

edit: except the vs marth **** lol i cannot even imagine a TAS ganon that PP cannot movement bait into getting grabbed. i feel like eventually you have to throw out a preventative hitbox and it will be unsafe to either dtilt or grab. marths DD is too much lol.

 

[Divinokage]

the better i get, the more i agree with kage.

funny how that works.

edit: except the vs marth **** lol i cannot even imagine a TAS ganon that PP cannot movement bait into getting grabbed. i feel like eventually you have to throw out a preventative hitbox and it will be unsafe to either dtilt or grab. marths DD is too much lol.

I have to try this again, I polished quite a bit of my play, hopefully enough to defeat him. =P

 

[-ACE-]

Really? You think so? With my level ups, I'm back to thinking Marth vs Ganon is even. Falcon is definitely harder than Peach 6-4 matchup. Peach vs Ganon is probably 55-45. Samus is also pretty even, I think I have an answer now to camping but I have to try it out first vs the best Samus. =P ICs.. well, Ganon advantage no?

See, I think you're absolutely insane to think Marth vs Ganon is even. And like I said, 5-7 was the hardest to determine, but still, you get ***** by armada HORRIBLY but manage to do decently against the best falcons (although i dont know if you've played mango's... pretty sure PP's falcon would lolcancel and roflstomp you all day long). You can blame that all on "Armada is on another level" but we are still talking about the best Ganon vs the best Peach, and I still feel like the best falcon ever is still dealing with all the weaknesses falcon has. Samus is approaching even, sure. That's why I stopped there... pretty much Doc, Link, Y LInk, pikachu, Luigi, DK, etc... so many characters go even (or very close) with Ganon it's hard to say at that point.

 

[Divinokage]

I might be the best but I haven't capped my skills yet, I totally have a lot of room to improve. On my end, I can see the potential ahead of what might be, if that happens there wouldn't be any roflstomping but rather a lot more back and forth vs any player.

Falcons can take opportunities a lot easier than Ganon can which is a pretty bad weakness if you ask me, if I'm not on point vs the Falcons i'm dead automatically.. it's a matchup where you arent allowed to squander anything or else youll die, that's why its horrible.

For me Ganon is a character specialist slayer, he should be able to beat any player that uses a lower tier character. I mean even if certain matchup are even, all you need is the momentum and it's pretty easily acquired when you start your aerials. Low tiers aren't that hard to hit.

And also I've yet to be proven wrong that Marth owns Ganon, I can't see how I would lose to one in brackets, it never happened nor do I think they will. Someone with a right mind will not CP Marth vs me unless that someone only uses that character, well in that case.. I still find it EZ mode. Idk, there's just so many angles you can take to **** him. >_<

 

[-ACE-]

Well mango trashed you with marth just goofing around, and then beat you with link... pretty sure he could have done it with marth again. And I don't think anyone would say his marth is anything like M2K's or PP's marth. I still think a lot of your success vs marth (not putting down your skill, you have an excellent anti-marth game) is from players still being unfamiliar with playing against smart Ganons with good spacing.

I also think what you said about falcon can be applied to marth, for different reasons sure, but same general result. BTW kage, have you ever played marth? You have excellent spacing. I bet marth could be a good secondary for you. just my opinion.

 

[-ACE-]

Btw I know you've had the upper hand on m2k's marth before and that's why he goes sheik for the easier matchup. But just saying, Marth is tough for ganon imo.

 

[Divinokage]

Well mango trashed you with marth just goofing around, and then beat you with link... pretty sure he could have done it with marth again. And I don't think anyone would say his marth is anything like M2K's or PP's marth. I still think a lot of your success vs marth (not putting down your skill, you have an excellent anti-marth game) is from players still being unfamiliar with playing against smart Ganons with good spacing.

I also think what you said about falcon can be applied to marth, for different reasons sure, but same general result. BTW kage, have you ever played marth? You have excellent spacing. I bet marth could be a good secondary for you. just my opinion.

It's 1 game though, it's not like I'm guaranteed to win any match. >_< An even matchup can go either way, isn't that right? lol.

I have a Marth but I'm still bad vs spacies, I can only use him for Falcon, Peach.. maybe Jiggs. Mirror match also.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Peach is pretty free to Ganondorf imo. Did anyone watch me getting off vs Bladewise at EVO on stream? I'm not even good

 

[Superspright]

What Ganon has beaten Armada ever?

 

[Upke]

You could say that about every character.

 

[Superspright]

No I can't.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

What Ganon has beaten Armada ever?

I'm not even sure if any Ganondorfs have ever played Armada in tournament outside of maybe Qlex.

 

[Armada]

I did beat Bizarro at Genesis 2 and Kage at Pound 4 for example.

 

[-ACE-]

What Ganon has beaten Armada ever?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxEsz2PQpHk

In a full set? Probably no one lol.


EDIT: Ian, peach FREE for Ganon??? Whatever you're smoking share that **** lmao

 

[Superspright]

Peach isn't free for Gdorf until I see a single Gdorf take a set from the best Peach. It's more like 60-40 because of her combos, and edge guards and the ability to pressure us on shield and we can't do anything about it beside roll or wavedash.

That Ganon doesn't even look that good, and clearly he got downloaded.

 

[-ACE-]

I'll go for 60/40. But i'd have to give falcon and marth the same numbers. I just feel like those 3 are really similar in difficulty in the current metagame

 

[Divinokage]

I did beat Bizarro at Genesis 2 and Kage at Pound 4 for example.

Luckily I wont have to worry about Peach in tournament anymore. If it's not you or Vwins then Im pretty confident I can defeat any other Peach almost guaranteed.

I don't think the matchup is 6-4 though, I think you are just way better as a player that no Ganons can compete because we're bad. Your spacing, reactions and punish game are too ******** >_<. lol. Freaking younglings, too fast.

Superspright, give some time, Ill try to max out my levels before an important tournament, perhaps then Ill be on point enough to take on the top 4. =P

 

[Armada]

Well maybe another Peach legend shows up one day =D

Yeah I kinda thought you would say something like that. Im not trying to say Im sure it is 6-4. But the way I "feel and see" the chars and then the MU tells me it is something like that. But I have always been hating on Ganon. Not because I disrespect the players playing him but because I think he is worse then people overall think, that only means Im more impressed by Ganons when they place good though.

 

[Divinokage]

Perhaps.. never know what can happen in 10 years... =P But I still feel like I haven't used everything I can to master matchups, its still doable and i cant bring myself to think that this particular matchup is as hard as a spacies. Im actually happy when I face a Peach in brackets but its a lot more tiring to face a spacies in brackets >_< lol. But Im not sure if its right to take that into account for matchups.

 

[-ACE-]

I agree with Armada. Ganon blows haha, I love him to death though.

 

[Armada]

Perhaps.. never know what can happen in 10 years... =P But I still feel like I haven't used everything I can to master matchups, its still doable and i cant bring myself to think that this particular matchup is as hard as a spacies. Im actually happy when I face a Peach in brackets but its a lot more tiring to face a spacies in brackets >_< lol. But Im not sure if its right to take that into account for matchups.

Well, most people feel that. Even after trying to perfect Peach for severall years I still feel that way. But maybe you have more stuff left with your char, I don't know.

Also, people have different ways of looking at MUs. 60-40 for me is not necessairly 60-40 for you. Even if we agree about everything I feel that people put their numbers different anyway cause it's hard to be specific with numbers since it is no real guidence how to put them.

 

[-ACE-]

Also, people have different ways of looking at MUs. 60-40 for me is not necessairly 60-40 for you. Even if we agree about everything I feel that people put their numbers different anyway cause it's hard to be specific with numbers since it is no real guidence how to put them.

Very true and I hate numbers because of that. because honestly I feel like a matchup can only be slightly advantageous for one character but in reality they win 80% of the time... but people see 80/20 on smashboards and think there is absolutely no matches that bad. A matchup that is TRULY 60/40, as in, the character with the advantage wins 60% of the time on average, is pretty much even to me. Damn close.

 

[Armada]

Yeah numbers is for sure something that becomes hard to judge from.
I also know that many use the numbers as a guidence for how often a char is winning.

But if we put a MU like Fox vs Kirby for example I would say it is like 90-10 or something. But I still think Kirby should NEVER win a match if both players are super good and know what they are doing.

At one point it becomes to much the fact that your chars has way worse/no options for certain things.
As we can see Im also kinda weird in this discussion as most people so yay even harder to understand the concept

 

[Nintendude]

Armada didn't you also play Linguini at that pre-Apex 2012 house tournament or was that just friendlies?

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah numbers is for sure something that becomes hard to judge from.
I also know that many use the numbers as a guidence for how often a char is winning.

But if we put a MU like Fox vs Kirby for example I would say it is like 90-10 or something. But I still think Kirby should NEVER win a match if both players are super good and know what they are doing.

At one point it becomes to much the fact that your chars has way worse/no options for certain things.
As we can see Im also kinda weird in this discussion as most people so yay even harder to understand the concept

I completely agree. Funny how you're the first person to say this that I've seen haha. And I understand what you are saying. Honestly Fox vs Kirby is probably like 99/1 who knows, great example of a horrible matchup where the typical number scheme (xx/xx) does no good whatsoever in describing the probable outcome.

 

[Armada]

Nintendude: Only friendlis. I decided to not enter the tournament since you never know how long it takes and I did not wanted our ride to wait in case it would take to long.

ACE: Haha awesome =D
Yeah Fox vs Kirby is probably the worst MU in the game. Im a Kirby supporter and think he is underrated (still horrible but underrated) but that MU is so bad.
And yeah I totally agree with you there.

That's why winning ratio and numbers not is the same thing.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dave, I still can't get over your avatar lmfao

 

[Double Helix]

Alright, so I am a Ness main so please don't hate on me too badly. What makes the Sheik matchup that awful? All chaingrabs aside, I don't really see how it is completely awful. I figured it'd be 60-40 in sheik's favor. But like I said, I have never played the matchup, I overall suck (especially as Ganondorf), and so I just cannot see how it is not closer to even.

Also, I was thinking about picking up Ganon as a secondary or a second main at some point. He is really a fun character and any information would be awesome.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

It's extremely hard for ganon to get in on sheik. All sheik has to do is camp and ganon can never really successfully approach, so all the sheik has to do is bait **** out. And as ganon, we can only try to bait **** out as well (which is tough because of our limited options, all of which sheik can cover).

I still think fox is a worse matchup. That little ****** is tricky as hell.

I say go for it in terms of picking up ganon. He is easily the most rewarding character. Getting that read and just inflicting 20% after one hit is soooo great. But its a long uphill battle vs most characters and damn dude ganon takes forever to actually develop. Took me 1.5 years to actually get decent with him and I still have a lot (a ****load) of work to do. Work on your spacing first thing because you'll notice people will do **** you want then to do even without actively baiting stuff.

 

[Divinokage]

Nah Sheik is our worst by far.. If Sheik really knows the matchup aka M2k, KK, PKM.. then it's really hard to mix it up in order for you to gain the advantage. Sheik has way too many setups after a grab to death combo almost guaranteed as well, it's not even based off reads but where you are as you can't escape that well. They barely even need to think about what they need to follow up with, not exaggerating, it's brain dead to kill Ganon with Sheik for real. I even tried it myself and i was laughing at how impossible it is to escape combos granted the Sheik does the correct options which almost no one does, haha.

Im more confident defeating the best Fox than the best Sheik easily.

 

[Double Helix]

Lol. Looks like I was more than wrong. I should have probably just not talked and taken your word for it. But man...my two favorite characters in the game have terrible matchups against Sheik (but who doesn't Ness have a terrible matchup against really?). I will never win in Melee ever XD. Oh well...time to have fun trying to beat Sheik as Ness then, though I may still pick up Ganon for funzies.

 

[-ACE-]

Nah Sheik is our worst by far.. If Sheik really knows the matchup aka M2k, KK, PKM.. then it's really hard to mix it up in order for you to gain the advantage. Sheik has way too many setups after a grab to death combo almost guaranteed as well, it's not even based off reads but where you are as you can't escape that well. They barely even need to think about what they need to follow up with, not exaggerating, it's brain dead to kill Ganon with Sheik for real. I even tried it myself and i was laughing at how impossible it is to escape combos granted the Sheik does the correct options which almost no one does, haha.

Im more confident defeating the best Fox than the best Sheik easily.

It's just easier for sheik mains to beat ganon so she is harder more often, but when a fox player is on and not making mistakes you feel pretty helpless. It's just really hard to play a near flawless, patient fox that can go from camping to extreme yet safe offense (with intense punishment game) and back when appropriate. Mango's fox last day of evo comes to mind. Fox is faster and more agile with a better projectile when it comes to forcing ganon to approach. And Ganon approaching either of those characters is really rough.

I always used to say Sheik, then Sheik/Fox, but the more I think about fox's potential (and how more and more people are playing fox correctly ie. leffen, mango, sfat on his good days, etc.) I think he's probably worse.

In a nutshell, scrub foxes and scrub sheiks are free, mediocre fox is free but be somewhat careful against mediocre sheik, higher level fox be halfway worried, higher level sheik be really worried, top level fox or sheik you're pretty much fooked.

 

[Double Helix]

Man, I'm not sure if there can be an etc at the end of that. Seems like it is just Leffen, Mango, and Sfat really. I haven't seen any other Fox players that have reached that level. I mean, I would include Dark if we could ever see him because he is a monster.

 

[Divinokage]

It's just easier for sheik mains to beat ganon so she is harder more often, but when a fox player is on and not making mistakes you feel pretty helpless. It's just really hard to play a near flawless, patient fox that can go from camping to extreme yet safe offense (with intense punishment game) and back when appropriate. Mango's fox last day of evo comes to mind. Fox is faster and more agile with a better projectile when it comes to forcing ganon to approach. And Ganon approaching either of those characters is really rough.

I always used to say Sheik, then Sheik/Fox, but the more I think about fox's potential (and how more and more people are playing fox correctly ie. leffen, mango, sfat on his good days, etc.) I think he's probably worse.

In a nutshell, scrub foxes and scrub sheiks are free, mediocre fox is free but be somewhat careful against mediocre sheik, higher level fox be halfway worried, higher level sheik be really worried, top level fox or sheik you're pretty much fooked.

Im more worried about the player himself than the Fox matchup, for real. You can space just fine vs Fox, he's just fast and have good priority with his moves. You can hit him once and then it can be pretty much GG, i've also gotten better at CGing. I told you, im doing level ups not just in CG but in all my play.

 

[-ACE-]

Well obviously I was just speaking in generalities based on character. The player is everything. But just because m2k's sheik might be harder than anyone else's fox... doesn't mean sheik is worse of a matchup for Ganon imo.

Double Helix: javi and unknown are also really nasty on their good days.

 

[Divinokage]

Well obviously I was just speaking in generalities based on character. The player is everything. But just because m2k's sheik might be harder than anyone else's fox... doesn't mean sheik is worse of a matchup for Ganon imo.

Double Helix: javi and unknown are also really nasty on their good days.

That's why I posted several Sheiks that is almost pretty much impossible to beat atm with Ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah but you're only one Ganon lol, it works both ways. Just because you're the best currently doesn't mean your personal records vs certain players completely dictate Ganon's matchup probabilities.