Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bizzarro Flame]

he quit, just like all the other good cali ganondorfs (save for bizz).

oh and mr ganondorf moved to washington. he still plays and is ranked over there.

Nope, I switched to Falcon. Sry guys!

 

[Divinokage]

i cg everyone. especially in the ditto.

if you don't cg, you're silly.

Lol, sure, whatever you say! I think it's silly to do what everyone else does, make your own style!

I bet even with your precious CG while I dont CG, I can still beat you.. so much for being silly!

 

[Superspright]

It's so easy to catch turnips... and Ganon has lots of options and time for spacing... it's not like peach is twice as fast as Ganon. And I know Ganon doesn't beat jiggs on any map lol, and I don't think FD is the best stage for the matchup (I just don't think FD should be written off as ****ty altogether), but techchasing Ganon on a platform with rest is too easy. Ganon's platform work doesn't help as much vs Jiggs compared to other characters.

It is easy to catch and powershield turnips...but catching them is not good in the air. A good peach will throw it while you are about to commit--there are very specific distances where catching turnips is detrimental for us because it allows her to cut through us with nair/fair while we are in the middle of returning the turnip or catching it--a bad peach will let you catch turnips without a reason. A good peach will zone you with them and make catching them a PROBLEM for you. I've seen a glimmer of a good peach here and there--and when she does things right with the turnips they do kill us, and she can outzone us on that map. I'd say it's her favor on FD, but anywhere else it changes.

I didn't say luigi, I think his wd on FD makes gives him more opportunities to control the stage compared to platform stages. Ganon has a decent cg on pikachu, if you aren't flubbing edgeguards it's doable. The marios basically run even with Ganon also, nullifying pills with tilts/aerials is super easy, and fireballs aren't that big of a problem imo. As far as sheik, yeah it's a really tough matchup, but if you're turning a grab into a stock, you at least have a chance if you can get in your opponents head a bit.

Pikachu is hard to grab--but his CG is legit...I am not sure that it leads into an edge-guard every time though, and it's hard to edge-guard pikachu anyway. Luigi has a good WD, but Ganon can almost certainly mindlessly fair until he hits his shield or him. Mario and Doc can be a problem with their projectiles as well. FD is probably Ganon's worst map, but it makes all the CGs unbreakable.

[EDIT]

Kage..the CG is best thought of as a super peach d-smash...being able to take anyone from 0-death is very useful. It's not about style, Kage. Ganon's skill-set exists independently from everyone who plays him--we merely uncover his abilities and his strengths. If we can't put all of those skill sets together then Ganon will continue to not be a tournament threat.

And better players will FEAR your CG and thus play around it--the same way I am trying to learn how to powershield and punish effectively so my opponent will have to avoid that as well--forcing your opponent to play a different game because of viable threats is what makes character's shine...the threat of certain options forces the opponent to not hit on shield a certain way, or to space completely off shield--the game can change just because you have a few tricks in your bag.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Yeah, get your act together Kage

 

[Divinokage]

Omg.. I told you I dont have time for this. You have to do it for me, I dont play Smash enough to improve to the top 10 level, forget it. My level has staled for a long time now, the only way ill improve a lot is if I restarted playing every 2nd day but no one here can do this either. I never owned Melee btw, cant practice alone.

 

[Superspright]

Move in with me Kage. Let's just practice from sun up until sun down on CGs and shielddrops and edge-cancel shenanigans until you're Captain Ganondorf.

 

[Divinokage]

Hehe, I wouldnt mind practicing a lot, its just not possible atm. And players are freaking horrible here as well, it makes me want to quit that in 5-6 years no one was able to improve to our level. The only way I can have fun with them is if I use alts since theres at least a small challenge but I still beat them. lol. I want to keep struggling to improve, its so fun that way.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yo, just discovered some REALLY useful stuff for edge guarding marth. Whenever I send marth off stage, I usually edge hog and refresh my invincibility so I don't get stage spiked. Two ways to edge guard marth: invincible ledge drop uair if your opponent is recovering low, or invincible ledge hop uair regrab (the one that doesn't land you on stage) if they try to recover above you. This takes fast hands, but just like anything else, its mainly muscle memory. So far I've had a 100% success rate, not kidding. That's not to say its unavoidable, but that my training partners haven't yet found a way around it. It's also very safe because of the regrab

 

[-ACE-]

Joe, you are exactly right, and on track. No Ganon has used the ledgedrop uair regrab to its full benefit, and it's a ****ing shame. This can be 2014 ****. Marth is an easy character to edgeguard in theory, but it's also easy to F up. If you know marth is out of options, you can also RLD to dj uair for more range if you want to surprise him.

 

[Divinokage]

Why is it a shame? Its just another option out of all options you can edgeguard Marth with. I mean if they want to use it then it's cool but you always seem to focus on one technique that will apparently change the whole game, it wont. You have to account how to set everything up until that point which is much more important I find.

 

[-ACE-]

Why is it a shame? Its just another option out of all options you can edgeguard Marth with. I mean if they want to use it then it's cool but you always seem to focus on one technique that will apparently change the whole game, it wont. You have to account how to set everything up until that point which is much more important I find.

It's a shame because it's an easy option that has been at our disposal for 10 years and no one has used it to it's full potential. Dude, I'm not out to change "the whole game" by giving some advice here and there. YOU are probably the most narrow-minded ganon main to ever exist. You thought sheik was 50/50 ganon. You stated wholeheartedly that wavedashing is not necessary for ganon to improve, you also thought Ganon vs Falcon and Ganon vs Marth were even and we now know Ganon loses all these matchups (it took some longer than others to realize this). You were stubborn and never admitted that any of the advanced techniques you use now were worth learning. And now look at you, learning all that useful **** and ******. If you're not chaingrabbing, you're sandbagging (in most cases). And if you can't ledgedrop uair regrab on command with Ganon, you are giving up (and have given up) countless easy edgeguards. If you don't care about melee anymore then fine, but I give advice to those who want to improve. If you don't want to improve and don't care any more you should probably provide a real reason why my advice is bull**** instead of just saying it doesn't suit you right.

You say I should show how you should set everything up? This is a specific edgeguarding situation. Everyone knows you can ledgedrop, dj and try to reverse uair someone. In today's metagame though, they are not expecting a RLD to reverse uair that has more range. It's a shame because WE AS GANONDORF MAINS should exploit everything we have since so much is working against us?? I mean what else do you want to hear? lmao. I know you don't car anymore but the only reason I post on these boards is to see Ganon mains do better in tournament.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

No, kage I'm not saying all bets are off and that marth will no longer ever return to stage because of this one technique, but I'm saying that no ganon has really EVER used it, and I figured it was good to spread the word because it is another thing we now have in our arsenal. I've been experimenting with it to get out of ledge pressure, and as an edge guard.

but yea, you're right. When it comes down to it, its really just a move lol, definitely not unbeatable.

and yo ace, that's a great idea vs marth! I've used RLD dj uair on spacies with limited success, but that's really the extent to which I've experimented with it

 

[Upke]

I usually play vs players in the states for SF and the lag is still minimal.. Can't smash have that too?

Perhaps eventually, but I have to get an adapter first. I think my friend can make me one. =P



Ya.. I guess its a matter of time really when i try this out.

Yes, you can do that in Smash. The only problem would be if you or your opponent has noticeably worse internet than the average person, but I'm sure you could notice that in SF too. And that sounds pretty boss. The good news is, if your friend can't for whatever reason, it's only maybe 20 bucks with shipping included.
I hope you do. The person I probably play the second most with lives in Ontario, so that gives credibility to the viability of Canada/US versing. And of course you can't expect it to be filled with Mew2Kings and Mangos and Dr.Peepees, but I was having that problem that you were describing where people around me were either not interested or too bad for any real practice. I also have no means of transportation, so Global Melee is like a godsend to me.

 

[Superspright]

It's a shame because it's an easy option that has been at our disposal for 10 years and no one has used it to it's full potential. Dude, I'm not out to change "the whole game" by giving some advice here and there. YOU are probably the most narrow-minded ganon main to ever exist. You thought sheik was 50/50 ganon. You stated wholeheartedly that wavedashing is not necessary for ganon to improve, you also thought Ganon vs Falcon and Ganon vs Marth were even and we now know Ganon loses all these matchups (it took some longer than others to realize this). You were stubborn and never admitted that any of the advanced techniques you use now were worth learning. And now look at you, learning all that useful **** and ******. If you're not chaingrabbing, you're sandbagging (in most cases). And if you can't ledgedrop uair regrab on command with Ganon, you are giving up (and have given up) countless easy edgeguards. If you don't care about melee anymore then fine, but I give advice to those who want to improve. If you don't want to improve and don't care any more you should probably provide a real reason why my advice is bull**** instead of just saying it doesn't suit you right.

You say I should show how you should set everything up? This is a specific edgeguarding situation. Everyone knows you can ledgedrop, dj and try to reverse uair someone. In today's metagame though, they are not expecting a RLD to reverse uair that has more range. It's a shame because WE AS GANONDORF MAINS should exploit everything we have since so much is working against us?? I mean what else do you want to hear? lmao. I know you don't car anymore but the only reason I post on these boards is to see Ganon mains do better in tournament.

ledge drop upair regrab is extremely useful. Kage underestimates good tech-skill, but then complains about getting shine-grabbed or whatever...guess what that is? Tech-skill related to their character. He doesn't learn everything that's possible with his in an effort to circumvent their tech-abuse on him. I don't really understand that thinking. Tipman was good at this game because he tried to do everything he could think of with Ganon as perfectly as possible.

The CG is viable as long as you can hone your reaction down until it's practically automatic. It's the best option Ganon has against anyone he can chaingrab. Against Marth it's a 0-death if he's near ledge. Against Falco it's 12%-death and Fox 35%-death. It's strange that the best option is to chaingrab and you won't learn it. I don't get it. You create artificial barriers and challenges in your head so that you can prove to yourself you can't win? Learn this **** already.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Lol, sure, whatever you say! I think it's silly to do what everyone else does, make your own style!

I bet even with your precious CG while I dont CG, I can still beat you.. so much for being silly!

4/7 ganondorf ditto mm at evo, 50 canadian dollars.

 

[Divinokage]

ledge drop upair regrab is extremely useful. Kage underestimates good tech-skill, but then complains about getting shine-grabbed or whatever...guess what that is? Tech-skill related to their character. He doesn't learn everything that's possible with his in an effort to circumvent their tech-abuse on him. I don't really understand that thinking. Tipman was good at this game because he tried to do everything he could think of with Ganon as perfectly as possible.

The CG is viable as long as you can hone your reaction down until it's practically automatic. It's the best option Ganon has against anyone he can chaingrab. Against Marth it's a 0-death if he's near ledge. Against Falco it's 12%-death and Fox 35%-death. It's strange that the best option is to chaingrab and you won't learn it. I don't get it. You create artificial barriers and challenges in your head so that you can prove to yourself you can't win? Learn this **** already.

It's my style, I'm not a tech heavy player, I just do what I think is right. That's all there is to it, why is that so hard to understand? I like to make my opponents do what I want. You seem to imply im not good though.. Anyways, dont make me repeat myself with the Smash situation in Montreal. I cant learn anything when no one plays. Those barriers arent really barriers, its just the way i chose to play.. if I lose because of it, it's too bad.. I play in the way which brings me the most happiness. And yes Im fully aware I can play otherwise but I dont want to. Techchasing someone is so much more satisfying than just grabbing them, it makes me feel like i destroyed them.

4/7 ganondorf ditto mm at evo, 50 canadian dollars.

As you wish, mr.

 

[-ACE-]

The CG is viable as long as you can hone your reaction down until it's practically automatic. It's the best option Ganon has against anyone he can chaingrab. Against Marth it's a 0-death if he's near ledge. Against Falco it's 12%-death and Fox 35%-death. It's strange that the best option is to chaingrab and you won't learn it. I don't get it. You create artificial barriers and challenges in your head so that you can prove to yourself you can't win? Learn this **** already.

Yep... it definitely takes practice to make the cg second nature. But this is our chance to get in spacies heads a little bit. All Ganon mains have been 0-death combo'd before where even if your combo DI is on, you still feel sorta helpless against a fast character that is in control. The cg is our chance to make fox/falco feel helpless for once. After the 8th regrab I guarantee they will start to lose some steam lol. They often get frustrated a little bit too, it can really break their momentum.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I know you don't care anymore but the only reason I post on these boards is to see Ganon mains do better in tournament.

^mass respect. Ace if it wasn't for you posting on here/your edge guarding thread and others, I would not be as good as I am. Maybe as a player, but definitely not as a ganondorf player.

 

[-ACE-]

Thanks Joe. I know I can't offer the type of advice that Kage/Linguini can on numerous matchup specifics due to their extensive tournament experience, but I know the basics very well and if Ganon has strong basics he can do very well in tournament. I had to figure this stuff out a long time ago with no one to teach me (sucks being the best player out of your friends on college sometimes), so if I can save anyone some time I'll do it in a heartbeat. I wish this game just came out yesterday lol (and I know what I know now). I would probably dual main marth and Ganon. And I'd be hellbent on bumping Ganon up the tier list.

Just imagine if performing Ganon's chaingrab on Fox/Falco was just as easy as cg'ing sheik.... everyone would do it, and spacies wouldn't approach Ganon with the same confidence. Where would Ganon be on the tier list then? Sheik would be Ganon's undisputed worst matchup (which she may be right now anyway) and Jiggs would probably be just has hard as spacies imo.

 

[Renth]

I typed out a response four times urghhhh i hate my phone.. will drop huge post when able

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the thing about the spacie chaingrab is that it's as much a tech chase as anything else until like...70 percent. i'm pretty sure it's not possible to react to which DI they have until they have that kind of percent. you have to dig in their brain to figure out when they really feel like getting out of the CG, and that's when they'll start DIing behind. usually this happens on the 4th throw. then you have to decide whether they're gonna mix it up, or whether they're just committed to making it as hard as they can for you technically. by that time, i'm much more interested in dthrow jab fair.

most times trying a more traditional techchase (dsmash, option coverage with bair/fair, maybe even dair) ends up more profitable than gambling on the next grab.

 

[-ACE-]

I can do it from 70% on... it's possible to start lower. Obviously if you are at the point where you are just guessing which way they'll DI, DO NOT CHAINGRAB. Just techchase like you said... When it comes to the point where both techchasing AND chaingrabbing are a gamble, go with the one with the biggest jackpot (techchasing). It's one thing to give up on guaranteed damage because you know you aren't good enough to get it, but if it's just a little practice holding you back (grabbing falco at 70% and taking the stock is still worth it), work on it and go for it... I say. And I don't believe in any general tricks like "they usually DI back on the 4th throw" Hopefully after 4 throws they are at a percent where you can start reacting. Also, if they aren't mashing buttons, you can easily get a pummel or 2 in between throws.

And fyi, I would definitely advise uthrowing onto a platform over chaingrabbing if the platform is nearby. Techchasing when your opponent as restricted options is pure gold.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that's basically the hard part, when should you stop to CG while taking into account the reward you can get from techchasing instead. I mean Im pretty comfortable to do 2-3 regrabs on Falco but after that it starts to wear you down so i think its important to not use that kind of focus too much because you'll start to lose momentum by not paying proper attention. I mean you'll start to judge things incorrectly which will get you punished. It's not realistic to keep focusing 100% of the time because if that were the case, your reactions would be totally on-point all the time that's why its great to switch in between predicting the next attack and reacting to the next attack. You have to let your mind rest during the match so that you are able to do the proper techniques at the right times, like create some space and think about what the opponent is trying to do rather than shutting him down by force.

 

[Superspright]

I'm trying to learn it from the lowest level. It's very easy on Falco until 55-70 for me. I tend to just mess up the timing still but I know what inputs to go for. It's just turn around grabs and grabbing in place. After 55-70 he can sorta trick me up. Plus, you can tell which way they are DIing by how they appear over your head as you are rising. It is not a tech-chase at all--it's just observing the read and reacting to it without thought. It has to be a totally mindless process--if you are going for reads you will always **** it up. Fox may require reads at lower percents though--the chaingrab is much harder on him but we still have a lot of time to do it. I think it may be possible for at least a few people to master. Ganon would be a real threat if his grabs lead to death every time--it would be like vsing ICs.

Once your opponent is in your grab you slow the game down as slow as you can and use that momentum to **** your opponent up. There are ways to follow up even if we miss our chaingrab. So it's not all lost if you miss and try to do it perfect.

I prefer concentrating harder than my opponent. I like to use my brain to the fullest and being amped up on adrenaline. It's the only way for me to play, personally.

I also believe their DI is easier to catch if they have even percents--I think Magus wrote that somewhere. We need to just get smart and very percent aware for our CGs. I think we're over hyping how hard it is--it's just not something you can learn in a week or two...and it probably takes a while to master--but at least if it's learned it's a death nearly every time.

 

[-ACE-]

Well, we were originally talking about FD, in which case, if you discontinue the chaingrab, you're basically saying "I could take this stock for free, but I'll take a gamble on it instead", which is what I'd like to see end. After 2-3 grabs on falco it starts to wear you down?? How? I'm fully capable of switching my focus from chaingrabbing and back to general fighting/spacing/stage control rather quickly. I didn't think that would be an issue. I'd just like to see guaranteed damage not get passed up if there isn't a better option.

edit: superspright... You're right about it being all reaction... I don't think chraingrabbing Fox below 40 is humanly possible on reaction. That is getting close to impossible. But Falco, yes. DI easier to catch at even percents? what do you mean? I usually watch Ganon and I can tell the difference between no DI/DI away and DI full behind/partial behind. Keeping your eyes on Ganon will prevent you from ever screwing up your timing. You will dash + jc grab (or whatever the situation calls for) as soon as the dthrow ends.

 

[Superspright]

I heard that when Falco's percents are even he can't DI far behind us so it's easier to regrab or something. I may be wrong.

Summon Magus!

Is dashattack canceled grab any good for regrabs? Or is that silly? I feel like it goes slighter farther than a normal dash grab, but JC grab is probably just as far lol.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm pretty sure the first part doesn't exist.

The second part, yes Ganon has a boost grab but you can't tell much difference at all between that and JC grab. Just JC grab.

 

[Superspright]

I have a semi-photographic memory. I'm going to say that at least something changes when the percents are even...I really need Magus now!

 

[-ACE-]

If magus tells me odd vs even means a difference I will call him out.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I...cannot imagine it being the case.

spright where are u from / who do you play against?

 

[Linguini]

CG is good like 2-3 times but I usually like to tech chase trap them by predicting their di. If you can, do it. But messing it up and letting a spacie tech away isn't any good.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

After playing some PM Ganon in tournament today, I'm quitting Ganon in Melee.

I don't think I can ever go back to not having electricity on my bair, and not having Flame Choke.

 

[Renth]

ledge drop upair regrab is extremely useful. Kage underestimates good tech-skill, Tipman was good at this game because he tried to do everything he could think of with Ganon as perfectly as possible.

Ledge drop up air is tech skill....? are you for real.

To be clear: Tipman IS good at this game not WAS. Something else a lot of people over look I guess cause no one see's him play but I got the honor to recently.. He can do all of these things but he's patient, extremely patient even. He doesn't slide around and be aggressive and do the stupid **** us flashy trash can ganons do.

4/7 ganondorf ditto mm at evo, 50 canadian dollars.

On the real bro, Kage is on a higher level of play than us. He will likely win a MM, thinking you can beat him just because he doesn't chain grab is silly (even if at apex Kage was sloppy at the ditto)

If magus tells me odd vs even means a difference I will call him out.

That odds and evens thing is a complete load of trash. - Summon Strong_bad Strongbad or KirbyKaze (however you spell your name on here) for clarity. (Claiming while chain grabbing falco if he is at an even vs. an odd percent makes it easier or harder)


About a year ago, I'd be with you guys calling out Kage on everything cause I use to think he was dumb and refused to use any tech skill. If we open our eyes a little and realize he's the #1 top Ganondorf without those things clearly states you do not those things to achieve a higher level of play. Calling people out saying OMFG YOU DON'T CHAIN GRAB OR USE THIS TECHNIQUE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU LOLLZ is stupid. Clearly, we need to stop trying to simulate each other into the same entity. Think about it, we all have our opinions, theories and how we should apply them. Instead of discussing about why we like or dislike each of this individually we try to force these techniques down each others throats.

I don't like to chain grab, I don't think I'll ever get use to or care about it. I do attest that ledge drop up air is legit against Marth/Mario/ect.

We are open to discuss how we feel about moves, tactics and what is a good or bad idea. We all need to stop trying to push this character, I cannot believe I'm saying this of all people given my play style. We need to calm down on all the flash and focus on what works.

 

[Upke]

I would agree that he doesn't need them. I do think they would help, but it's not exactly game-changing, and if Kage doesn't want to play that style, he's not losing that much. Besides, playing the way you enjoy most I feel is most important.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Loooool renth dude, its funny to hear a ganon as flashy as you to say that tech skill doesn't matter, but I agree with you for the most part. I waveland all over the place and get punished because of my brainless play style, so I actually agree with you (hypocracy). I only recently have started to see things I haven't seen before and consciously think about option coverages and what my opponent is going to do, while sacrificing a lot of my flashy tech still and I would now actually consider myself a decent player. Not great, but far from a brainless ganon.

It's funny, but the only ganon I have really seen combine tech skill and brains successfully is linguini. And maybe g vice. For example, he will waveland off a platform to get himself some extra range to combat a dash dancing opponent, and it works. But yea, main point I'm trying to make is that I agree that tech skill can only get you so far and when you watch smart ganons like kage, you rethink your whole play style and decision making process.

 

[-ACE-]

Renth, I'll try to refrain from saying "OMFG YOU DON'T CHAIN GRAB OR USE THIS TECHNIQUE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU LOLLZ" so often. Lol. I agree that chaingrabbing is not necessary to achieve "a higher level of play" It's also not necessary for sheik to cg Ganondorf to win, but if I was in a $1,000,000 MM, I'd chaingrab like a muthafugga. Because I want to win. No one has to listen, but when there isn't a clear spot to techchase where your opponents tech options would be limited, go for the guaranteed damage (you still get to techchase when you're done if you don't get a KO). One is 100% guaranteed, and one is rolling the dice. If you get **** loads of grabs, you can afford to roll the dice. At high level play, you don't get many grabs so you have to make them count.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Ledge drop up air is tech skill....? are you for real.

i was thinking the same thing.

also, ganons should abuse crouch cancelling more. it's sad cuz i feel like the best thing out of our cc is jab, which doesn't really compare to other great cc options like shine or dsmash, but we should get people off our sack more with it.

 

[Superspright]

Next we'll say flame stalling isn't tech-skill...ledgedrop uair REGRAB is not just something you do on one shot without practice. I think you guys have a reading problem. That's like saying the RLD is not tech-skill....

You seem to be getting butt-hurt over nothing. I'm fine with being on people's cases about what is the best option...no one can properly argue that chaingrabbing isn't good because it's AMAZING. If everyone could do it easily we would, but no one has learned how so we say it sucks or it's not cool enuff for meeeee. Give me a break. Bruce syndrome.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

are you talking about the one where you jump instantly and and regrab the edge? because if so, i...can't imagine that being game changing at all lol.

 

[Superspright]

It sucks I have to say this again, but learn to read. I never said it was game-changing. I indicated that it was tech-skill. Now you're just backing up on what you said earlier because you didn't read it properly. Please don't waste my time reading your posts when you don't read mine.

It's a good option to beat out almost every recovery that tries to sweetspot. You're invincible during the uair after all.