Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Superspright]

Sheik screws us up...nothing else to say about it. Anyone can give you a tip--or even tell you the whole matchup, but from her side it's very slanted toward her. I wouldn't bother learning anything in that matchup beside the chaingrab, and edge-guarding her perfectly...everything else is just a spacing battle, and we lose it gloriously in nearly every way.

 

[Zob Pkaw]

Well that's a bit disappointing to hear. Oh well, I guess I'll work on spacing my aerials to point where I don't get shield grabbed, and then work on my edge-guarding and chaingrab.

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, if you get grabbed it's pretty much over...I think CCing has some merits in this matchup as well, but any sort of mistake with that will lead to combo to death...powershielding her needles is only viable if you can use the force because it's all prediction at any distance because they can't be seen. So you can't really stop her projectiles...you really can't stop her tilts even if she hits on shield. You can't stop her grabs even if you spot-dodge she'll just follow up with a jab and a grab. You can't stop her aerials because they are all faster and cover nearly everything except for her dair (our uair destroys it). You can't stop her edge-guarding either. She can be as creative as Picasso on her edge-guards too--so you won't be tricking her up. Best bet to survive edge-guards is to try to walltech bair. Everything we need to do to kill her is fairly difficult to pull off all the time, and the spacing battles all suck because we lose--we're not as fast off the ground...on it...anywhere.

It's like they took Ganon and slimmed him down and gave him a legitimate moveset, but took away his DD and rolls. Sheik can't roll without getting punished by Ganon, and her DD game sucks...this is the only matchup with Ganon I'm positive I shouldn't win unless my opponent is trolling me or new.

 

[Zob Pkaw]

I had a bit of success with CCing at first, but eventually he started finding ways to punish me for it. I honestly feel like I should just learn Sheik and play her when ever I face a Sheik, just to show how stupidly safe she seems to be. It feels like there is just no punishing her for anything.

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, you can definitely counter sheik with her own character--it's not that hard to play her if you play Ganon. Just get more tilt happy, and the chaingrab for her is easier...so you should have no problems going from grab->tilt->swat death.

I hate conceding to a matchup before it starts, but I know Ganon's goose is cooked on this one. Nothing we can do without our opponent making a mistake? That's a bad matchup.

Powershield theoretically opens up her aerial game [the hitlag is low] but it's too risky to go into shield with her, so screw it. Just dumb all around. I hate playing it against even a decent sheik. I just get handled usually.

 

[Zob Pkaw]

Yeah. I don't like conceding to a matchup before it starts either, but after today were I only won once against her(only because they sd'd twice, and I still almost lost) I felt I needed to do something else...

 

[Renth]

Sheik is one of my favorite matches. i hate when this topic comes up

 

[Superspright]

Do you also like being shocked with a cattle prod? I don't see how anyone can like this matchup aside from a masochist. Not fun. Not even challenging...just degrading really.

If you like this matchup it's only because you love losing or love winning once in a while against unfathomable odds. You aren't winning this one most of the time against anyone of your skill level--and if you say you do you gotta be lying. This isn't even a matchup--just a free beatdown.

I hope I don't come off as argumentative--but you gotta be a unique individual to like that matchup. It's so painful for me. I love winning it--but it's a guilty pleasure because I feel deep down I shouldn't have.

 

[Upke]

Maybe he likes it but understands that he usually doesn't win it. I personally love the Zelda v Falco match-up. Zelda is so slow and Falco is not only fast but suffocating from long distances with those lasers, but it just feels comfortable. I can't imagine playing Ganon v Sheik feels comfortable, but I'm interested to hear how he feels.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You guys should watch renth play sheiks. It's actually quite impressive. Search for renth vs silent swag for an entertaining match. Keep in mind silent swag beat kels so he's no scrub.

that being said, dude is ****ing insane for actually enjoying such a ****ty matchup.

 

[Superspright]

I've played silent swags Falco back at Zenith last year...it was pretty good, but I wasn't blown away by it or anything. I'm fairly bad at the Sheik match up--but guess what...no Sheiks practice it. Go up against a Sheik that actually trains to beat Ganon. No Sheik does because it's assumed to be free--if Sheik put in the effort that we do it would be a shut deal.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

If any of you ganons are considering a character switch, I would STRONGLY recommend falcon. It's... ****ing amazing.

 

[Renth]

Im not going to try to argue. you guys clearly feel this strongly about the match. thanks pseudo. for nott. being super closed minded. Also you guys wouldnt beat swag don't sleep on the kid he e beat kels at Apex. Only sheik ive lost to recently was dark atma at the big house. (Last stock both games) Is it wrong to enjoy a match up that challenges you? You DO NOT need a secondary for any match up. that being said I lose to every falco ever.

 

[Renth]

You talk about sheiks dont practice the match up?? troflmao. i play this game once every two months i don't practice ever. w.e. done talking about this meet me and use sheik please

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Sheik is probably one of my top 5 favourite MUs with Ganon.

Although, the only MU I actually don't like is Marth so...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dude falco sucks. Like seriously **** that character. One of my buddies down here has a super campy falco and I just can't get around them lasers. Hmm, maybe I'm in my shield too much? I know I shield far too much vs marth.

And yo noobking, I'm actually trying to pick up falcon as a secondary, but I will never do any falcon dittos- that matchup is way too much fun as ganon (speaking of enjoyable ****ty matchups)

 

[Upke]

Im not going to try to argue. you guys clearly feel this strongly about the match. thanks pseudo. for nott. being super closed minded. Also you guys wouldnt beat swag don't sleep on the kid he e beat kels at Apex. Only sheik ive lost to recently was dark atma at the big house. (Last stock both games) Is it wrong to enjoy a match up that challenges you? You DO NOT need a secondary for any match up. that being said I lose to every falco ever.

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I'm still interested in hearing the details that you like specifically about the Sheik MU. It might help me.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

sheik is free. i like that matchup, too.

the falco problem is the true epidemic plaguing the nation of Ganondorf.

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe we should discuss techchasing and maximum punishment in different scenarios vs falco... and gimps.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'll start one off: dthrow on platform, dsmash that ****. It covers every tech option and dsmash is a great combo starter and is also a great setup for an edge guard situation depending on their di

I also wanna talk about getting around lasers, should you be in the air more or wavedash out of shield, etc. Oh and let's talk about how linguini gets so many damn shield grabs lol

 

[Linguini]

I got some cool d smash trap shenanigans in my combo video, rockrock also uses it pretty good

 

[-ACE-]

I'll start one off: dthrow on platform, dsmash that ****. It covers every tech option and dsmash is a great combo starter and is also a great setup for an edge guard situation depending on their di

That is great when they are at low% and you know they will land on the platform, at med% they can DI off of the platform. If they DI toward the edge, you can immediately drop through and uair spike them to set up a gimp. If they DI to the middle of the stage you can drop or dash of the platform and chase the next tech.

 

[Divinokage]

Pseudo, you pretty much need to stay grounded as much as possible. Just think that a jump is a commitment so if the Falco sees that you are in the air a lot, he can much more easily get in and **** you up. Why does this happen? Well, Falco can laser you in the air to stop your momentum and generally his moves come out really fast so if you arent careful he'll be able to stuff your moves before they come out. They very often wait for you to swing first to get in, so your movement needs to be really good. I'd recommend heavily to master Ganon's moves in his matchup, if you are technical, the matchup is easier for sure.. you'll be tricky and then the Falco will have a hardtime to choose where to attack you. But for this to happen, you need to establish a threat with your moves. All you have to do is simply make them aware of your moves like hitting their shield for example so they know that move can come out. I think it's also important to know how far Falco can go with each of his moves because when you know that then you can have better spacing and trap him better.

So from the ground, you have to play with DDing (very little) and WD space yourself while the Falco is shooting lasers. Jabs and Ftilts generally serve to stuff jumps (It can stuff Nair too) and like I've seen Fuzzy do the Linguini trick where you can DI a laser and grab Falco right away before he has time to decide what to do next. I think its also pretty important to learn since Falco's setups rely on lasers to begin with so you should master this right away. You can also space uairs to either trade or beat dair depending on your spacing. I dont use Fair that much in this matchup, I use it only if I call a fulljump but that's generally just me reading the player. (It works vs everybody) lol. So now that I think about it, it's really about catching Falco in a commitment where its possible to punish. Bair is also pretty good to allow Ganon different attack angles.. Im sure even reverse uair has it's uses to maneuver around aerials and lasers.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Wow, thanks kage, that's a lot of good information! I've been playing the matchup completely wrong haha, I spend almost all my time in the air, maybe it is more based on the spacing when you can uair, fair etc. I find it hard to dash dance unless you're right up in his face though, just because a laser to the dome kills all the options you have during your dash dance, and whenever I'm past their laser range, close enough to do so, I just get fsmashed lol. Frustrating, to say the least.

Yea Dave, I actually love the drop down uair gimp, but its very situational. Although super rewarding, especially since they are below the stage at that point (ie easy ass edge guard). And if they di the dsmash, yea you're kinda screwed, but if they just amsah tech it, throw out another lol, did it to rip once and he was like that shouldn't work

Lol linguini, I know all about that- I've stolen most of it. Stomp to dsmash on platform tech chase is legit. Oh next time you play, try a dsmash to dsmash tech chase on a platform, very disrespectful and actually really good as well, not just flashy

 

[Divinokage]

On FoD, I've felt that you can actually do legit shield pressure if you utilize the ledge cancels combined with the low platforms.. its so sick.. lol. Like Fair on their shield, cancel into uair --> jab or something.. lol.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Like if they're on a platform? Idk about FoD tho haha, that stage is a nightmare vs spacies for me at least. speaking of pressure I actually really like the nair for it. I did it accidentally and it was awesome, so I kept at it. Nair their shield if they're near the edge and space it so you can't be shield grabbed and then jab. After two jabs, they will roll, everybody does if they don't attempt a shield grab after the first so just stomp that ****.

I wanna try some of your edge cancelled shenanigans too, dat next level ****

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i love fod for ledge/platform cancels.

also my favourite cp vs falco.

 

[-ACE-]

holy **** ian, you can have that fod vs falco ****. Lol

 

[Divinokage]

I think he forgot Fountain of Shiz.. lol. But I do agree that normally it's a pretty good pick vs Falco. I do it too.

 

[Zob Pkaw]

So I got to face my friend who plays Sheik again today. I went with the idea of not jumping too much and abusing F-tilt and jab, and I didn't do too bad. The match up doesn't seem as frustrating for me anymore, so I don't think I hate it anymore, but I still prefer not to face her if I can avoid it.

As for the Falco match up, I think it is actually my 2nd favorite match up as Ganon. Although I'm beginning to think that its because the guy who taught me how to play melee mains both Falcon and Falco, which happen to be my favorite match ups. I like to try to keep moving with platforms helping me avoid lasers, and just poke at them tell they give me an opening to actually turn the pressure on them. I Think FD is a nightmare stage for this match up though, and I will admit that 90% of the Falco's I get to face approach in a brainless manner, so most of what I'm saying probably wouldn't help in high level play.

 

[Divinokage]

FD is generally a nightmare for all matchups unfortunately lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Not really.

 

[Superspright]

How so? No mobility really--combos never end on us and follow ups are easy as hell--and edge-guarding on FD is very easy too--easier then let's say Yoshi's or FoD.

 

[Divinokage]

Every matchup sucks on FD, Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Sheik, ICs.. well basically all the relevant matchups.. Jiggs is borderline. How do you win? I have like 99% loss on that stage. Platforms are absolutely needed if not its too easy for your opponent to space himself.

And then I took Fox just to see how he does on FD.. and i was like O_O, so much better than Ganon, hes so fast. Pretty much I concluded that characters with either quick moves or can move fast do great on FD.

Try playing a top player of any of these characters on FD, GL. You have to outplay your opponent so much that its close to impossible.

 

[-ACE-]

You win by having very strong techchasing (and punishment), a strong ground game, and some chaingrabbing.

It's all opinion, but I just think that "every matchup sucks" on FD is going overboard a bit.

 

[Divinokage]

Its not opinion when theres been no evidence for years that Ganon does not get beat on FD by everybody and I did say top players.

 

[-ACE-]

There's also not any evidence of any ganons asides from magus really trying to learn to chaingrab...
(and use it to it's maximum benefit at all times)

 

[Divinokage]

Even if you learn it against all characters, you have to rely on reaction in order to do it successfully so you will always mess up at some point. And you have to get the grab first... you are saying that if Ganon can CG better, we would win more? I dont completely agree with that. Even ICs with wobbling dont do that well which means your setups are far more important than your grab. You cant just get a grab when you want, none of his moves allow him to link to grab except if you juggle somehow with Dair. Ganon's setups on FD is even more limited, your angle of attacks are also far more predictable.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not saying it would change ganon's world, but it would undoubtedly help (Does pika's cg help her vs fox on FD?). It's the next major step in making ganon more of a tourney threat but it's too hard so no one pursues it. FD gives you plenty of room to run and space, if your opponent ever slips up you can grab, and when you can turn a grab into a stock, ganon is still a threat. People should opt for guaranteed damage over gambling on a techchase sometimes (situations where you can cover multiple options are different).

 

[Divinokage]

It really doesn't.. if FD has room to space yourself, it just means that a faster character has more room to work with than you, its a suicidal pick as a CP.