Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Superspright]

There are no words to describe how much I disagree with this statement lol. Campy falcon is tough, but beatable if you play smart and exploit some of his DD camping (waveland ftilt, waveland off platform fair, etc- anything to give you a little more range). I'm seriously convinced that it is not possible to beat a truly campy falco without powershielding at least 25% of the lasers or something. Seriously **** that character.

You're actually right. You don't stand much of a chance without a good powershield game against Falco. His game has tons of holes in it when you can powershield his lasers/rising aerial approaches. Only the best falcos will be able to circumvent the powershield. Powershields stop approaches. Powershields give YOU approaches. In some cases you can powershield roll behind, or powershield wavedash->ftilt/jab. It's a little slow, but if you are within range he's probably preemptively trying to do another move anyway as the laser you just powershielded hits. Most people can't react to getting hit with their own lasers. It's not common that people can powershield 2-3 lasers in a row at a time. It messes up nearly everyone--I've even seen PP get thrown out of rhythm by it for a bit at Zenith when M2K was exploiting it [not as effectively as he could have, but whatever].

Falco is a fairly rhythmic character. Ganon is not. You have to FIND his rhythm and then exploit it. It's harder than it sounds of course, but that is essentially the idea if you want to beat ANY Falco. The top level Falcos are not as predictable, but they do have timings they have to obey in order to continue.

Forget about what you learned about the matchup. If Ganon is still losing this matchup on paper that's fine [i argue it's 50/50 on paper]--but we shouldn't lose it in real life. We're playing humans--not paper or theories. Powershield is literally the best option against Falco. It's saved me countless times and given me opportunities to counter-attack that I NEVER would have without it.

 

[Divinokage]

Well in real life you get hit once, you're dead. lol. Top players are much more consistent now than they were.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

if you can directly approach campy falcon, it's only because he is either unaware of his surroundings, or unaware of your range. a good campy falcon is neither of these things.

Oh nobody said directly lol. I like to use kage's trick and inch closer until I'm in range and either wait for him to attack or attack myself. Works for me sometimes. By the way Chris, are you going to evo?

and dude superspright, you're claiming to do something very challenging. Do you have a video demonstrating what you mean and how powershields can be used?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

PP almost sandbagged enough where i took a match off his marth with ganon in a local tournament we had on tuesday. got a few hits on his last stock. he promptly 3 stocked me second match, if i recall correctly.

Also, unless my life lines up in a rather amazing way, I don't suspect i'll be going to EVO unfortunately. But who knows, i'm applying for jobs now, and if things coalesce by then and i'm gettin some real paychecks, it wouldn't be completely impossible.

 

[Superspright]

Oh nobody said directly lol. I like to use kage's trick and inch closer until I'm in range and either wait for him to attack or attack myself. Works for me sometimes. By the way Chris, are you going to evo?

and dude superspright, you're claiming to do something very challenging. Do you have a video demonstrating what you mean and how powershields can be used?

I really need a capture device, but on a really good day I've been able to snuff out approaches with it--or I'll buffer a jump out of shield and then fair/uair-> wavedash back...etc. I really LOVE the Falco matchup. It's definitely my favorite to play. I enjoy making Falco feel like he can't just WALK up to me and toss me around like a rag doll.

When I get a capture device I'll start recording some of the little tricks I do. People who I play with are aware that I know how and when to powershield attacks. I just need to keep training better reactions out of them like SDI away while in shield, or wavedashing properly to get out of pressure or jabbing/ftilting or even side-b can catch a bad firefox/firebird.

Also, if you want to improve your powershield game immediately just do the pressed button trick when you turn on your gamecube. I use the shoulder buttons like triggers, and I also play claw lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the weakest part about depending on a powershield game is that once it gets baited you're screwed. depending on a powershield at all is a commitment before your opponent actually does anything. if you powershield a laser close enough to do anything with it, then if he didn't shoot that laser, you would 1: look foolish and 2: get combo'd. if your goal is to powershield lasers at a distance until he stops shooting them, then thats another thing.

i'm trying to imagine how bad a firefox has to be before side-b is even an option. and i'm also trying to imagine a time when side b has a solid follow up when the opponent realizes to DI behind us. i feel like those two moments rarely coincide, but if it works, enjoy it.

 

[Superspright]

It's only when they go for the fake out for ledge and just barrel straight at you. side-b might not cover it (true combo) but I know that pivoting into any of the tilts probably works. I've had my side-b hit plenty of people out of firebird after it crossed over my shield, but they usually are about to attack right after they hit the ground. All they can really do is shield or spotdodge I think.

I'm definitely not depending on a powershield game...I just want it as way of forcing my opponent to use subpar timings so I can use my OoS game as Ganon.

 

[-ACE-]

I really need a capture device, but on a really good day I've been able to snuff out approaches with it--or I'll buffer a jump out of shield and then fair/uair-> wavedash back...etc. I really LOVE the Falco matchup. It's definitely my favorite to play. I enjoy making Falco feel like he can't just WALK up to me and toss me around like a rag doll.

When I get a capture device I'll start recording some of the little tricks I do. People who I play with are aware that I know how and when to powershield attacks. I just need to keep training better reactions out of them like SDI away while in shield, or wavedashing properly to get out of pressure or jabbing/ftilting or even side-b can catch a bad firefox/firebird.

Also, if you want to improve your powershield game immediately just do the pressed button trick when you turn on your gamecube. I use the shoulder buttons like triggers, and I also play claw lol.

Dude.......................................................................................























































You should play Dr Peepee.

 

[Superspright]

I wish I could. Even if I just got scraped I'd learn something. I'll keep working at it until it works or it doesn't work.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

i'm trying to imagine how bad a firefox has to be before side-b is even an option. and i'm also trying to imagine a time when side b has a solid follow up when the opponent realizes to DI behind us. i feel like those two moments rarely coincide, but if it works, enjoy it.

Lol. I think the reverse uair would probably better in 100% of situations. Unless of course you were going for a g. Vice combo video.

that being said superspright, I would love to see you prove me wrong, anything to help further the metagame

 

[-ACE-]

"if you got scraped" lol dude PP's falco puts ganons through a ****ing meat grinder. You better punish better than linguini, space better than chaddd and make decisions quicker and more intelligently than Kage if you don't want to get 3 stocked repeatedly.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

when i played PP, the primary thing i felt was helplessness. if i committed to something, he hit me for it. if i didn't commit to anything, he hit me for not having a hitbox out to counter his. i felt that i always had to commit first, and rarely did he run into my hitboxes.

it really will take a distinct shift in the ability to powershield lasers of all heights, and be able to discern those heights, DI lasers, SDI the shine that makes it much harder to follow, SDI the rest of the moveset to edgecancel yourself to attempt to end combos, and stay out of shield to keep your options open, to make that matchup playable at the level PP does.

i'm not sure exactly where we want to be in that matchup. that's honestly the biggest problem i see in it. with fox, theres a distance that's a little closer than a running short hop laser away that's just really awkward for falco to deal with i think. with ganon, thats like a touch longer than an ftilt, and idk if we really have a sweetspot relative to them that we should try to force ourselves to get comfortable with.

 

[Superspright]

Try DDing and powershielding the lasers. The dash frame makes it easier to powershield lasers at waist+ height (but you have to be dashing away...you can drop the shield immediately though and pivot or wavedash out). Pivot and stop for really low lasers. If you can just lose yourself in the match and just concentrate on what he's doing it's easier. There are ways to powershield his lasers fairly consistently. I do it from every distance. It's not that hard--it's just bad when you screw up and you get combo'd for it. We need to turn his combo lasers around and use them against him. I've done it quite a few times. I try to make the powershield count so I go for uairs or fair OoS if they laser. At certain distances they are already jumping again for the other laser (if they don't read the powershield) and it's a free hit.

We don't wanna be anywhere on the map realistically aside from ftilt range... he's always applying pressure. I don't think we want him to just shoot lasers though which is how he applies pressure all over the map. I think without lasers he's basically a crappy fox and his approaches become simplistic.

I like breaking out his combos. I really would love to get my ass beat by PP so I can start to see how a real Falco would follow-up, but most people I play aren't particularly clever I suppose. It's so far worked on everyone I've gotten it off on.

 

[Divinokage]

Well there's also the other options where you can bait him to go on top of platforms which is also a great position for you. Ive had a lot more success in playing the matchup very slowly and campy rather than trying to get in Falco and try to make him mess up somehow, just to say. I guess my main problem would be that I follow my own style too much now that I think about it because Bam said he hated when i played really defensive and I make his job a lot harder. I think its more favorable to make Falco approach first rather than you trying to force your way in. I mean it's still possible to beat Falco that way but your mixups would need to be godlike which is where PS's come in, right?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When playing against ICs is it better to go after Popo or Nana when you separate them?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Depends on the situation. Usually nana when its safe though. But a lot of it depends on damage and positioning, lol I know that's kind of a vague ****ty answer

 

[-ACE-]

Obviously Popo if he's vulnerable to a gimp, but killing nana is so much easier and render's your opponent semi-helpless. In general, Nana. But otherwise, yeah pretty much what Joe said.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

So basically if I can kill Popo, go for Popo otherwise go for Nana?

 

[Superspright]

Honestly...how scary is Falco without his laser game? I personally don't like leaving the ground in the Falco matchup. I'd rather wavedash OoS or PS his lasers than be caught in the air--certain circumstances are fine for it like jumping getting hit by a laser then uairing...but people can get smart to that pretty fast. It's definitely not in our favor without the right tools...and even with the right tools I imagine it's at best 50/50.

Has anyone really experimented with shield-dropping out of pressure with Ganon? I've been trying to do it, but I suck at it.

example: falco goes for a dair, you shield drop after shieldstun and uair? Is this good stuff to do, or is this too slow, or will we be caught by the shine?

Powershielding just gives Ganon the option to reset safer, or punish crappy rising aerials. I definitely don't think it's a godsend [it's not winning the matchup by itself...unless they are god awful]. But, it gives us more leeway in fighting him. If a Ganon could learn how to Powershield SDI out of his aerials into jab/ftilt that would be godly--given that powershield has really weak traction for Ganon.

@Kage

How do I get my opponent to get onto platforms? Do I bait them with wavelands? I do love when any of my opponents are directly over me. It's a free aerial.

 

[-ACE-]

The thought of Ganon vs falco being anywhere close to 50/50 is complete ridiculousness. And honestly, simply SDI'ing lasers may be more beneficial than PS'ing them. It depends on the situation.

WTF. Throw them onto platforms. Use light hits like the first hitbox of nair to put them on platforms. It doesn't matter how you put them on the platform, it's your option coverage after they tech.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

SS: about your shield drop ideas... Shield dropping is pretty broken, but shield dropping after a falco dair is too slow- I mean it miiiiiiiiiight be mathematically possible in terms of frame data ****, but I doubt its technically possible, probably can be caught by shine. Best thing shield dropping is used for is a counter for when your opponent is below you and attacks you. Ex: marth fsmashes and you shield it, then drop into a bair/fair

 

[Superspright]

It's a big duh to hit them onto platforms...that's obvious. I just wish I knew a way to get my opponent to chase me onto them, or condition them to use the platforms more. Most Falcos stay close to the ground unless they are following up.

If you SDI the dair you could shielddrop through without being in range of the shine, but you might fall off platform too...they wouldn't be necessarily close enough to hit. I just don't think it would be reliable honestly. Right now I've just been using uair->shielddrop on battlefield so I don't have down time on the uair really. You can buffer the drop on the first frame.

Falco can combo us to death--but we can too...plus we have our snazzy chaingrab->death. Has any Ganon really gotten the chaingrab down to a science yet? No. So I don't think we can say what the matchup is until we see someone do the chaingrab perfect in the matchup and a few other things.

 

[Divinokage]

Well if you want them on platforms more, it would generally mean your head to head combat is pretty good because your opponent will think twice about approaching you from the side. If you PS some lasers and you are where he can dair you but for example you uair him before he hits you, he will eventually need to change his attack angles.. he won't be able to do the standard laser to nair/dair or grab. You have to be good at stuffing his attacks if you want him to attack you differently, I guess this falls under playing a patient game with him. Also since his jump is ridiculous sometimes it's possible to get him at the starting point of his jump but if not you need to delay your attacks a lot if you want to hit him as he's falling and also have pretty good spacing because Falco's moves are pretty ********. So all in all, be scary lol.

 

[Renth]

Tipman outplaceed Rockcrock. Eikelmann and I GG Tomny

 

[Divinokage]

Which tournament? What were top placings?

 

[Renth]

Noob4. hbox plup col bol blea gelo shiz. in that order for top five iirc

 

[-ACE-]

**** yeah Tommy!! any vids???

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dayum! Tipman just don't quit, I'm really impressed!

Oh yea and what Dave said... Any vids?

 

[Superspright]

I heard he was doing some innovative stuff recently. I definitely would wanna see videos of my favorite Ganon. GET EM UP!

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly I would **** a brick if Tipman beat Dennis in dittos, just cause I know Tipman doesn't play as much and Dennis is ****ing NASTY in dittos.

I doubt that matchup happened.

 

[Renth]

Tipman knocked dennis out of the tournament and no Zero vids were recorded

 

[Renth]

Tipman beat me one or two more games than i beat him in friendlies. i lost to two falcos. spider sense took a game off plup in tournament. tipman is legend im happy to finally meet him

 

[Divinokage]

Ohh.. Speaking of Falco.. =P

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Hey Renth, how'd spidey do? And did linguini compete? I need videos, y'all suck

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

florida sucks, we don't record videos.

 

[-ACE-]

What.

THE.

F

 

[PseudoTurtle]

That's why Midwest da bess: we ****ing record EVERYTHING. Man, that's really disappointing. How'd you do, Ian? Last I heard you were starting to wreck some faces.

side note: I'm finally starting to see stuff I never saw before in the game and actually understand ****... Took me long enough lol.

Seriously tho Florida... Now we need another tournament with spidey, renth, rockcrock, Ian and tommy so we can all get our video fix

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

florida sucks, we don't record videos.

You suck because you don't record videos, or you don't record videos because you suck?

Or are the two mutually exclusive (I may have used that phrase incorrectly)?

 

[Divinokage]

Aww.. really? And here I was hoping to see some Ganon.. =(

 

[Renth]

Sorry gents. i left my laptop in PA or i would have recorded.