Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

looks more like friendlies than grand finals...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

we cut things in half if you know what i mean, but i know i was trying to force the second set.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Jesus, Randall had the world's biggest hard-on for sneak that 3rd GF match.

Also stop killing yourself lol

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah i think i SD'd my first 5 stocks in grand finals. that's pretty rare for me. but it shouldn't ever really happen

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

do you really lose to this guy most of the time?

 

[boomers]

could i ask something that has nothing to do with this i think you guys have some experience, if you would compare ganondorf in melee and ssbb where did he get nerfed?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah ian i do. and he doesn't even touch the game anymore outside of tournaments.

 

[Ripple]

could i ask something that has nothing to do with this i think you guys have some experience, if you would compare ganondorf in melee and ssbb where did he get nerfed?

in literally every way

 

[-ACE-]

Ian sneak has played chris so many times. when your training partner beats you, your other friends can't always see why it happened. Sneak knows his style

Ripple: Side-B is arguably better, with some cool applications. But melee ganon is roughly 457 times better.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I thought Aerial sideB is unarguably better. I'd say grounded SideB is better in Melee, though.

Chris, after seeing your Ganon there, I'm definitely looking forward to our next ditto. Will you be at Alex's next tournament?

 

[bubbaking]

I think he's calling you free, man.

could i ask something that has nothing to do with this i think you guys have some experience, if you would compare ganondorf in melee and ssbb where did he get nerfed?

Ganon is slower; the loss of universal mechanics, like L-cancelling, hurt him a lot. His one-kick usmash is garbage compared to the ol' double kick. He can't repeatedly use Wizard's Foot in the air to regain his DJ. To be fair, he isn't exactly weaker, but Brawl makes EVERYONE live forever through things like floatier gravity and hitstun cancelling, and with no combos, it takes forever for him to kill soemone.

I would argue, though, that Ganon actually has two notable buffs in Brawl coming over from Melee:

1. SideB is probably more useful now. It creates some nice TC set-ups and it's undoubtedly better in the air. It can also grab the ledge, so Ganon can use it recover.
2. UpB has a hitbox at the end of the move with a good deal of KB. It can be used to knock someone off the ledge who is trying to edgehog him. At high %'s, it can even kill, which would be a nice surprise for anyone standing too close to the ledge.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry for the double post, guys...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

uh maybe, raph. idk how life will look like. may not have time.

as for sneak, i feel that in time my fox will be able to figure it out, and then my ganon will. once i learn fox, the fox ditto won't be nearly as hard as i'm making it. the one character i beat at apex was a fox, and i honestly don't believe that i have a fox problem persay, moreso just a sneak problem.

similar to how kage has a bam/vwins problem. I overall i consider him a better player than both.

but i also consider sneak a better player than me right now lol

 

[Renth]

Why are we talking about..

nevermind.. I'll be back when people aren't asking ******** questions no one cares about.

Kind of how I feel about every brawl player, that's them. Clowns... Annoying... Clowns...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

uh maybe, raph. idk how life will look like. may not have time.

as for sneak, i feel that in time my fox will be able to figure it out, and then my ganon will. once i learn fox, the fox ditto won't be nearly as hard as i'm making it. the one character i beat at apex was a fox, and i honestly don't believe that i have a fox problem persay, moreso just a sneak problem.

similar to how kage has a bam/vwins problem. I overall i consider him a better player than both.

but i also consider sneak a better player than me right now lol

Based on those videos, I'd think you were the better player.

Yeah, I understand the life thing. If Alex's last tournament hadn't been a 10 minute walk for me, I wouldn't have been able to show up for the few hours I was there. I look forward to playing you at the next tournament we're both at.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

at nationals we always place the same.

he just plays a better character in a terrible matchup. i can outplay him and still lose. to me, that's the nature of a 6-4 matchup. i have to outplay him significantly to win, and i think i've done that twice out of about 9 times i've faced him in tournament. at least i came a little closer than i usually do. i'm glad you think i did outplay him to some degree or another. but i really just didn't make enough good decisions to win.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

aaaaaaaaaand the comment of the day goes to Renth!

Chris, you had him if you didn't suicide so much, I felt like you significantly outplayed him actually. You seem to know the matchup pretty well too. I play it like an idiot (shield grab attempt after shield grab attempt, shine, death).

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

at nationals we always place the same.

he just plays a better character in a terrible matchup. i can outplay him and still lose. to me, that's the nature of a 6-4 matchup. i have to outplay him significantly to win, and i think i've done that twice out of about 9 times i've faced him in tournament. at least i came a little closer than i usually do. i'm glad you think i did outplay him to some degree or another. but i really just didn't make enough good decisions to win.

NO

NO NO NO NO NO NO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

6-4 is NOT a terrible MU.

Go play ****ing Mewtwo in tournament, or ANY low tier really. You'll quickly go from "I lose 6-4, what a terrible MU" to "I only lose 6-4? **** YES"

or maybe, and forgive me for bringing up Brawl, but try something like Ganondorf vs ICs or MK in Brawl. You'll quickly realize what a terrible MU actually is.

Sorry for getting so angry, but when you think 6-4 is a terrible MU, you REALLY don't know how easy you have it.

 

[bubbaking]

To be fair, spacee:Ganon is probably worse than 6:4. Lolz, I wish Sheik:Samus was only 6:4 instead of 7:3 or some crap. 6:4 is like, Fox:Sheik or something.

 

[Divinokage]

Nah Sheik is definitely our worst matchup, her moves pretty much owns all Ganon's moves almost. Sheik dictates the pace too well.. she doesnt even have to try very hard lol.. I tried day 1 Sheik vs my friend's Ganon and he got ***** too easy. All you gotta do is stand somewhat near Ganon and then make him commit to one thing in order to punish him to death... Sheik's setups are disgusting with general low KB moves, she keeps Ganon exactly right near her almost all the time until it's time to send him off-stage.

With spacies, they have to play the guessing game a bit more and it's a bit harder to get in Ganon.. they don't have quite the punishment game on Ganon like Sheik does... however they definitely can turn the tables in the next second and I think that's a big reason why Ganon loses to spacies. If you aren't careful in your position then you can get one hit KO with Fox shine or Falco Dair... though exactly one bad guess and it can be ugly.

Edit: Sneak and Blackchris feels like me and Bam.. I NEVER beat Bam in tournament and I must have fought him at least 10 times in tournaments by now. I guess when you know someone so much, it's not even about the player but the matchup.. but when I fight in a tournament against others I feel like I play against the player more than the character.. what a strange feeling.. lol

 

[Renth]

Kage, next time I see you play sheik against me please. I seriously enjoy the match up.

 

[Divinokage]

It's probably going to take almost a year for that, maybe.. lol.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYXQE4KxDA8 - winners finals vs sneak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j5ezSSbXIU - grand finals vs sneak

uh yeah this is how i tend to fight spacies.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aijvh69TB0I - losers finals vs falcon. i play him very often, and we had a much closer 2-1 set earlier in the bracket.

lol watching your matches reminds me how little tech skill my ganon has. you have gotten a lot better it seems, idk why we didn't play at apex. you need that cunning/trail practice to see where you stand now .

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

trail, tech skill with ganondorf is so overrated. i was really impressed by yours though at apex. i wish we played some.

 

[-ACE-]

if you're saying tech skill is overrated with ganon, you're working with a slightly different definition of "tech skill" than I am. Tech skill = doing what you want. Being in control of your character. It's not just who can do the most RLD's to perfect moonwalk in a row without SD'ing. Kage is very technical with ganon. Different kind of tech than what spider sense specializes in.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

He's talking about flashy tech skill, and I agree with that, even though I am one of the worst offenders.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon doesn't have legit approaches. You have to be reactive because you almost always have a speed disadvantage.

Of course I'll agree that useless tricks don't help you win matches. But knowing how to do them on command is just another tool you have at your disposal.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol watching your matches reminds me how little tech skill my ganon has. you have gotten a lot better it seems, idk why we didn't play at apex. you need that cunning/trail practice to see where you stand now .

The training from you and cunning was some of the most useful training i've gotten in all my time playing smash. the midwest plays so...clean. there's nothing particularly obscure about it, but it's direct, solid, and it will kill you lol. i definitely wish i could've played you guys more.

i still push a lot of useless buttons and miss a lot of necessary cancels. it makes my play a little muddled when if it was clean, i'd just get hit less. if i can clean up the easy things, the "hard"/technical things i do would be...useful again.

 

[Divinokage]

The training from you and cunning was some of the most useful training i've gotten in all my time playing smash. the midwest plays so...clean. there's nothing particularly obscure about it, but it's direct, solid, and it will kill you lol. i definitely wish i could've played you guys more.

i still push a lot of useless buttons and miss a lot of necessary cancels. it makes my play a little muddled when if it was clean, i'd just get hit less. if i can clean up the easy things, the "hard"/technical things i do would be...useful again.

That's why they aren't scary, too obvious tactics, hehehe.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

sometimes it's not about being scary. it's just about getting hits and not dropping edgeguards. playing them was a good reminder of that.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

That's why they aren't scary, too obvious tactics, hehehe.

lol dat cunning would smash u in this game. <3

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Missing an edge guard against ganon always hurts the opponent a little on the inside.

On an other note I've been playing around with some pivot jab/tilt set ups. One is uthrow at lower percentages to pivot jab on opponents that decide to DI in place near the edge. The other is WD out of shield to dash pivot jab or tilt. Nice momentum breaker.

I know it takes a little while to get used to pivoting but when you get it down, these are two practical set ups that don't require intense reaction time.

 

[-ACE-]

WD OoS in what situation? and in which direction? Would you go with whatever is fully spaced (go jab if closer, tilt if farther)?

also what chars would you say it works best on? I know high ftilt is great at blocking a lot of characters' dash > sh approaches but I just wanna know what you have in mind.

 

[Linguini]

https://soundcloud.com/nova1/untouchable

new beats homies

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

WD OoS in what situation? and in which direction? Would you go with whatever is fully spaced (go jab if closer, tilt if farther)?

also what chars would you say it works best on? I know high ftilt is great at blocking a lot of characters' dash > sh approaches but I just wanna know what you have in mind.

During a shuffle frenzied opponent you can WD away from a blocked sh air. After the WD oos dash away for a quick pivot facing the opponent. If you pivot jab even if you don't hit your opponent you are left with little lag and the opportunity to get away or jab again.

Pivot jabs are also nice to change up the spacing from a dash dance (during which people can expect an aerial or laggy dash attack) to a jab/tilt that leaves you open to react to a counter attack and just generally give ganon more space from aggressive players.

The advantage I like the most from the few times I've play tested it was the change in spacing it opens up for ganon. WD oos is great and with a quick pivot jab it'll either trade or reset your dash in a safe way that leaves you close but not too close.

To clarify WD oos then dash away and pivot jab/tilt behind you.

 

[-ACE-]

I see what you're going with now, that's a good strat.

 

[Superspright]

If Ganon could trade every time he'd probably win a lot more. He doesn't get that chance as frequently as we'd hope.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm going to propose something that I doubt anyone has thought of before because of how, what would be a good word.... janky(?), it is.

Random Usmashes.

I kept missing inputs for SH Uairs at my last tournament and doing JC Usmashes instead. And somehow they all hit. And a few of them killed. It was fun ^_^ What do you guys think of this?

 

[-ACE-]

You got lucky. Usmash is risky. Cooldown time is low but a player familiar with Ganon won't let it go unpunished very often. It's pretty cool for techchasing on lower platforms though.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ace I agree that he probably got lucky lol, but that isn't to say its not legit. I remember doing the same thing (trying to uair too quickly and upsmashing) a few months back and noted it was pretty good when your opponent is dancing around above you trying to bait a uair. I know I'm explaining that kinda poorly cuz its a weird situation, but it does work, I experimented with it at fc and it worked against darkrain and shroomed in a couple of friendlies.

that being said, it IS punishable, even if the lag is short