Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RaphaelRobo]

I took a look at some of those early posts. I'll look at more of them later.

The main problem I have with shorthopping is that when I'm in the middle of a game it's hard to push something softly. I imagine I'll get the hang of wavedashing etc first.

With fast falls, I believe the problem I have (the few times I screw it up) is that I try to fast fall to early, but still attack as if there were a fast fall, so my attacks miss.

At the moment, my training involves practicing against Lv1 CPUs, with three rules that I've set myself:
1. Whenever I move, it has to be a wavedash. Running isn't allowed.
2. Whenever I land, it has to be a waveland. I can't just fall
3. If I can't waveland, I have to either techroll or L-Cancel, depending on the situation.

Most of the time when I wavedash, my character holds up his shield. Is this because I'm holding down R too long? I've noticed if I do a tilt (at the moment I can only do a forward down tilt during a wavedash) I don't hold up the shield.

I played against more people today, and still 3-4 stocked them. I had a breakthrough in the Ness matchup, when I realized I can spike him while he's using his PK Thunder to recover. I was able to get a few more kills in this way. My friend is very good at reading my movements, though. While I can consistently two stock him, he's able to predict the majority of my actions during the game. I just don't die because it's harder to KO Ganon, and once I get him to the edge, I usually prevent his recovery. From my experience, and what I've seen of Ganon's hitboxes, I feel like Ganon should be able to prevent any recovery, assuming the Ganon doesn't make mistakes. Even if the other person doesn't make any mistakes once they're off the edge, I still feel like Ganon should be able to prevent their recovery.

Also, I won't consider myself a true Ganon until I can do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq-tQJg7r38#t=435s

 

[Bl@ckChris]

LOL i'm being looked up to :D

but i'll never forget when i was still like this

http://www.youtube.com/user/SmashLordSpoon#p/search/28/O1rDw3OBtFY

it takes focus, but if you have good focus, it won't take long at all.

also yeah, if your shield comes up, you're holding it too long.

 

[Beat!]

Consistent short hopping will come naturally. Just keep playing.

 

[-ACE-]

I felt like a god? rofl?

I answered questions to help people get better because I like this game and would like to see Ganon mains do better in tourney. It has/had nothing to do with me being on some high horse.

 

[Beat!]

I think he meant that he looked up to you "like a god".

 

[Jane]

raphael, you shouldnt limit your ground movement while you practice to only wavedashing. its also important to learn like, running towards your opponent and immediately wavedashing back.

plus, the reason why it tends to be hard to wavedash in a real match is because youre not used to wavedashing in sudden, unexpected situations. so yeah, practice wavedashing randomly, rather than limiting yourself to ONLY that.

 

[-ACE-]

Oh, I see. My bad chris

LOL

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah ACE, i just looked up to you. that vid of you moonwalking and ****ing up link was classic lol.

made me wanna start moving like that. and eventually, i did.

 

[spider_sense]

I idolize Chris and Ace. :3

 

[-ACE-]

I've had my days where I can move on your level jason, just not super consistently.

I remember working in baltimore and the md/va scene going OMG HE MOVES LIKE RENTH. rofl

 

[Renth]

hah.

I don't move like anything I never play.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

but u used to.

i RLD now mid match because of that invincible RLD stuff you did in that bored video.i've done invincible RLD's 3 in a row mid match just chillin on battlefield LOL. they keep thinkin they can hit during it LOL.

 

[-ACE-]

are you fastfalling to the ledge each time? if not they have a very small window.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

rld dash attack is too good.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Thanks again for the help. I've gotten the hang of wavedashing without my shield popping up, so I'm starting to get better at wavedashing. Running and then wavedashing backwards is difficult for me because I struggle to move my thumb to the other side of the controller that quickly. Overall, my technical skills are getting better, and have improved a lot since I came here. If I watch a video of some of the better Ganons, I can keep up with what they're doing a lot more easily. I still jump something like 10% of the time when I'm trying to wavedash, so I need to stop doing that.

I'm impressed by all the cool stuff you guys can do on Ganon. Hopefully I'll be able to do that when I get better. So far the best I've done has been Dair spiking someone with my face for their last stock. That was pretty cool, though.

Also, what does RLD stand for? If I had to make a guess, I'd say Reverse Land Dash, but I'm probably wrong.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

close, it's reverse ledge dash. as much as one has control to waveland on stage, they can actually waveland back off onto the edge. it's kinda hard to do though, but once you get the hang of it, it's really fun.

 

[-ACE-]

it gives you so many more edgeguarding options. much more range and height to RLD dj offstage bair/uair than just ledgedrop, dj out and bair/uair.

mooney how do you rld dash attack? lol

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo i was wondering too.

ledgedash pivot jab catches that awkward location that's odd to get to. i'd imagine normal ledgedash to turnaround dash attack would catch some people unawares too.

but rld dash attack is...wat?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

This Reverse Ledge dash seems pretty awesome. It's definitely high up there on my list of techniques to learn. I want to finish getting the hang of wavedashing, landdashing, and platformdashing first, because I think I'll use those more often. I tried messing around in Yoshi's story today, and it showed how much my platformdash skills are lacking - I just airdodged into attacks over and over again. Other stuff on my list is pivoting, and this rld dash attack. Given that neither of you know what it is, I'm really curious now.

If I continue improving like I have since I came here, I think I'll have a good chance of not losing really badly at NCSU. I'll probably still lose all my games, but not as badly as I would have before.

On a side note, I was able to pull off a retreating Fair and a retreating Bair the other day. I was really impressed by how useful they were, since I was able to pull off attacks where I would have been hit if they weren't retreating. It's definitely another skill I'll be practicing.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.twitch.tv/fizzi36/b/299029273 Click on part 2 and go to 37:50. What kind of BS is that? lol.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Out of curiosity, who are considered to be the best Ganons at the moment?

 

[-ACE-]

Kage, you caught pika with a fair during a fast move (like an illusion/phantasm) and the forward hitstun registered although it looked like pikachu went through you due to her(his?) move being so fast. Pikachu could have easily SDI'd and tech'd with perhaps as little as one SDI input.

Raph, you have a great attitude towards smash, keep it up. Don't think that RLD is necessary, I basically never see Linguini do it and Kage flat out can't do it lol. But it's without a doubt an asset, as well as a relatively untapped portion of Ganon's metagame (it has more potential than either people realize or more than they think they are willing to risk their stock for because they aren't 100% sure they won't suicide trying it).

edit: Raph, Imo the best Ganon ever is Linguini, but Kage is essentially on the same level with a different style. I won't go into it because this always leads to drama but Kage is more fundamentally sound (maybe, maybe not... at least that is his strong point... not messing up simple stuff and having good spacing) while Linguini has dug much deeper into Ganon's "bag of tricks" if that makes sense (represents the progression of the Ganon metagame much more).

 

[Divinokage]

I can definitely do some fun things now. =P

 

[-ACE-]

Can you moonwalk yet? lol

 

[Divinokage]

Is that really necessary? lol.

 

[-ACE-]

you said FUN stuff rofl.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

It's interesting that you say that move has a lot of potential. From my experiences with Ganon, which are admittedly limited, I feel like he has a huge amount of potential, especially when it comes to edgeguarding. In my opinion, Ganon has the potential to be as good as the top characters (Fox, Shiek, Marth, etc), but we haven't worked out how to play him that well yet. Of course, I haven't had as much experience as others, so this is a relatively uneducated opinion.

I think it's interesting that people don't RLD because they're nervous about losing stock. I play Melee with a lot of risk, performing moves that I can barely do, on the offchance that I'll get it right. And, even if I do mess up, I gain experience using that technique. I spend a lot of time in infinite time melees against Lv1 CPUs to get more practice with my techniques. When I feel confident in those techniques, I try to use them against Lv9s (I know they're predictable, but I haven't worked out their patterns yet). As an example of me failing at a technique I'm bad at, today I lost a stock against my sister and took a lot of unncecessary damage because I tried to platformdash, and did a horizontal air dodge instead (note we were using my desktop, which can run other stages at full speed), right into her attack. I've been impressed recently with how good she's getting at predicting my moves, although I also messed up a lot today, with my aerial attacks falling short every time.

Linguini and Kage are the main two I've been watching videos of, so I'm glad to hear they're considered to be the best Ganons. I've seen a few situations where Kage's style has caused him to do better in a certain situation, and the same for Linguini. I think it's fascinating how Ganon can be played so differently. On a side note, I also think it's fascinating how different it feels to play Ganon compared to Falcon, even though Ganon is a clone of Falcon.

 

[-ACE-]

It's interesting that you say that move has a lot of potential. From my experiences with Ganon, which are admittedly limited, I feel like he has a huge amount of potential, especially when it comes to edgeguarding. In my opinion, Ganon has the potential to be as good as the top characters (Fox, Shiek, Marth, etc), but we haven't worked out how to play him that well yet. Of course, I haven't had as much experience as others, so this is a relatively uneducated opinion.

Ganon can't compare to the top tiers really (notice I didn't say he can't compete), his general speed both as a character in general and his movset (cooldown/startup times) limits him too much.

I think it's interesting that people don't RLD because they're nervous about losing stock. I play Melee with a lot of risk, performing moves that I can barely do, on the offchance that I'll get it right. And, even if I do mess up, I gain experience using that technique. I spend a lot of time in infinite time melees against Lv1 CPUs to get more practice with my techniques. When I feel confident in those techniques, I try to use them against Lv9s (I know they're predictable, but I haven't worked out their patterns yet). As an example of me failing at a technique I'm bad at, today I lost a stock against my sister and took a lot of unncecessary damage because I tried to platformdash, and did a horizontal air dodge instead (note we were using my desktop, which can run other stages at full speed), right into her attack. I've been impressed recently with how good she's getting at predicting my moves, although I also messed up a lot today, with my aerial attacks falling short every time.

That sounds like you're making good progress man.

Linguini and Kage are the main two I've been watching videos of, so I'm glad to hear they're considered to be the best Ganons. I've seen a few situations where Kage's style has caused him to do better in a certain situation, and the same for Linguini. I think it's fascinating how Ganon can be played so differently. On a side note, I also think it's fascinating how different it feels to play Ganon compared to Falcon, even though Ganon is a clone of Falcon.

Watch a few vids of Chaddd and Renth too, no matter how old they might be. And Magus vs Velocity rofl. You'll learn some stuff about side-b shenanigans. The key is understanding when they work and why.

and omfg. G. Vice is like a man from the future that came back in time to teach us mere mortals how to play ganon. watch him too

Also someone once told me that spider sense was fun to watch but idk.

 

[Divinokage]

you said FUN stuff rofl.

Fun stuff for me is trying to kill my opponent in various ways lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Fun stuff for me is trying to kill my opponent in various ways lol.

You wouldn't have much fun ditto'ing me then.

*fair in ya face*

beeeeeeeeeeeyotch!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Watch a few vids of Chaddd and Renth too, no matter how old they might be. And Magus vs Velocity rofl. You'll learn some stuff about side-b shenanigans. The key is understanding when they work and why.

and omfg. G. Vice is like a man from the future that came back in time to teach us mere mortals how to play ganon. watch him too

Also someone once told me that spider sense was fun to watch but idk.

I'm going to go look at some of those videos now. I'm very interested in the side-b shenanigans. At the moment, the only time I use it is for recovery when I can predict exactly where my opponent will be and know an Fair won't hit them. I know I use my down-b way too often, though. It's a leftover instinct from when I was a lot worse at Ganon and used it to move towards my opponent quickly.

Also, I noticed in a lot of videos that whenever fox uses a side-b on stage, the Ganon player tries to jab them. I've always used the down-b, since from my experience it has higher priority, and it knocks the fox back, allowing me to follow up with a more powerful attack. Is there a reason I wouldn't want to do this?

 

[Divinokage]

You wouldn't have much fun ditto'ing me then.

*fair in ya face*

beeeeeeeeeeeyotch!

What makes you say I won't have fun? I always have fun. lol.

 

[-ACE-]

lol kage just playin bro

jason too LOL (spider sense is super fun to watch)

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

mooney how do you rld dash attack? lol

what do you mean?

also @ raphael robo there is no best ganon overall imo. good ganons are

tier 1: linguini, kage, rock crock, chaddd (he just started back up again)
tier 2: spider sense, qlex, Bizzarro Flame, g.vice, cho

 

[-ACE-]

when you RLD you're in the process of wavelanding off the edge. Don't really see how you would dash attack while in mid air or while grabbing the ledge lol.

Kage and Linguini are probably in their own tier right now, with chaddd nipping at their heels (i'd like to see him start ****** face though, glad he's back).

 

[G. Vice]

Sweet, I make the honorable Ganon mains mention list!

Lol, but in all seriousness, Kage and Linguini are probably your two staple ganons, with Chaddd and Rockcrock somewhere close behind.

 

[-ACE-]

Mooney it just occurred to me that you probably meant a regular ledge dash to a pivot dash attack, which is very fast and throws your opponent off guard. Jabs, grabs, ftilt, and even fast aerials are good mixups out of a ledge dash as well, depending on what the situation calls for.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

awww i'm not tier 2 yet.

ah well.

tier 3 is okay for now i guess lol. haven't had any vids of my recent success anyway, so my vids are still pretty meh.

 

[Divinokage]

Hehe, it's only a matter of time, Blackchris, keep going. =)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, i'm finally bout to be PR'd in NC for real. i plan to make my rise a little more official through going to ROM4/Apex.

i just need to not get bored with ganon. i end up playing my secondaries a lot more than him sometimes. but i still need to play him because my style of play requires a lot of play time and precision to keep it.

guhhhh